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Re: [1listSculpting] Re: 35mm scale

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  • Eric J Gibson
    I simply cannot believe that a model larger than 28mm is good where appropriate. All I am saying that there is pluses to having another standard (of 35mm) to
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 1, 2002
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      I simply cannot believe that a model larger than 28mm is good where appropriate.

      All I am saying that there is pluses to having another standard (of 35mm) to show up on the scene. Obviously, I wouldn't suggest it for an model for model recreation of the Battle of Gettysburg or anything, but if your game requires less peices, then everyone can benefit. Sculpter, Caster, and Collecter. The suggestion that some believe companies are producing larger models to exclude other model/casting companies is not totally accurate, because usually the bid companies are rather exclusive by the nature of there game itself. How many other companies produce Tyranids? How about Space Marines? The answer...none! And if they did, they wouldn't need to worry about scale because the lawyers would be problem enough.

      Models ARE getting bigger, but it is because they want more detailed models. I personally don't see anything wrong with this. As I have said before, I have total respect for sculpers and collectors of 10, 15, and 25mm models, and some games should ONLY be played with models of this scale. But if you are going to have a war-game that is TRYING (I stress trying) to capture some of the essence of Role-playing games, that is the individual personality of each and each character, that why not go larger? Take Inquistor for example (a crappy game by the way) It is a light skermish game, usually only 2-5 models per side. Sure you COULD have models that are 25 or 28mm and play on all day long on a coffee table, but the fact remains, that MOST war-gamers already have a table anywhere from 4' -8' somewhere available to them and why not have a bigger table, with bigger guys that one can have more fun painting and converting or just plain getting "in to". That is why Inquistor is 54mm. Beca
      use it's appropriate to the scale of the game!

      Everyone has there favorite scale. Everyone was thier own opinion, but come on folks, don't start making it out like a model larger than 28mm is somehow not a "real" mini and is somehow betraying our art. Because if you believe that a large sculpture is somehow a poorer sculpter, than you should have a look at Michelanglo's David!

      As for GW's LotR...Hate to break it to you. They aren't producing some special scale. They are REAL 28mm (which IS a standard) and not 32mm (which is not)
      ---
      Thank You,
      Eric Gibson



      On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:54:28
      elfesylvainfr wrote:
      >--- In 1listSculpting@y..., "Eric J Gibson" <hellsreach@l...> wrote:
      >> Its not all about the "Evil Empire". One should make scale
      >appropriate to the scale of the game one is playing. I'm in the
      >middle of developing a game of gladitorial combat. Since this is in a
      >skirmish scale and players will not have much on the table, I felt it
      >would be suitable to have 54mm models.
      >>
      >> As for 35mm models, I don't think the additional size of the model
      >is that much and the purpose of taking things to a true 35mm (not
      >like GW which is still an oversized 28mm), to to allow sculpters and
      >casters to start making body proportions correct. You simply cannot
      >sculpts heads, hands and feet in good proportion at 25mm and still
      >expect the intricate details to make it thought many castings. That
      >why we have models with huge hands and heads.
      >>
      >> (just my oppinion)
      >> ---
      >> Thank You,
      >> Eric Gibson
      >
      >I don't think it's a sculpting/molding problem, a good sculptor can
      >sculpt a well proportioned 28mm mini. (see GW lotr mini or mithril's
      >mini which are 32 but have smallers figs very well done).
      >Some range like confrontation make larger figs because they think
      >they are more beautyfull (some because their sculptor can't respect
      >scales...). In Rackam's case (confrontation) or GW lotr mini I think
      >they used a different scale so that peoples can't play their games
      >with other mini range...
      >It's just that if you don't control what sculptors are doing they
      >tend to do their mini always bigger ( I myself had to sculpt a 38 mm
      >fig to fit with another Fenryll sculptor minis, otherwise I manage to
      >respect a 32mm or 28 scale).
      >The fact that hand and head are biggers isn't a sculpting/molding
      >problem but a stilization problem. This are important part of the
      >body and sculptors do them biggers so they still are visible on a
      >mini. Some stylize them smaller and I know a sculptor making them to
      >small ( the one making 38mm figs with 3mm heads...).
      >
      >and 35mm are maybe better for skirmish.
      >
      >
      >


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    • Eric J Gibson
      Again people it all depends on the scale of the game. You don t see who you could play a goog game with 6 35mm models? Perhaps I the only old school roleplayer
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 1, 2002
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        Again people it all depends on the scale of the game. You don't see who you could play a goog game with 6 35mm models?

        Perhaps I the only old school roleplayer on this list. I spend many a night with friends back in High school (wondering why I didn't have a girlfriend) playing a good game of AD&D, Shadowrun, or Torg...with ONE character, Five or six people in one group. I had a blast!.

        I know roleplaying games and wargames are two different animals, but who is to say you can blend the two a little.

        Yes, when the scale goes up and the size of the units go down, then inevitable some of the tactics of war go away, but then other tactics somehow become important.

        The best thing war games is that you have options. Play 10mm if you want or 25- or 35 or 54mm...It's all up to you. But just remember. I'm sorry that people don't like that thier 35mm models don't look right next to your 25mm, but they aren't made to go together! You aren't supposed to put a unit of 20 guys in 35mm or 54mm together in one big unit. That what 28mm is for. Try putting 500 28mm soldiers in one but battle force and field it...You can, you would need a 20ft table, but put those same 500 soldiers in 10mm and take more like it.

        Scale of the model, should but appropriate to the scale of the game.

        [steps off soapbox]
        ---
        Thank You,
        Eric Gibson



        On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 01:30:13
        witchcoal wrote:
        >Since the majority of gaming
        >> >sytems, both RPG and TTG have movement scales measured for 25s, I
        >can't
        >> >see any good reason for the change. Can anyone explain exactly
        >what the
        >> >trend toward larger and larger figs serves?
        >
        >It seems to me that some of the manufacturers are trying to move in
        >on Rackham's success. Personally, I prefer-as Steve mentioned, the
        >28mm Foundry size. It is a nice mid range between 25mm and 30mm. It
        >allows you to use all three scales-w/out things looking too out of
        >place. The 35mm scale seems better suited to painters-than wargamers.
        >(the guys who paint one or two and put them in a case) I've never
        >heard of anyone using Rackham's stuff-which is amazing-in a wargame.
        >I can't even imagine having to buy a regiment of Rackham's minis-
        >you'd have to take a small loan:) It may sound damn weird, but I
        >still like pullin' my stuff out of my case and just forming them up
        >into regiments. Huge painted regiments-it is a great feeling to see a
        >massive body of troops that you painted all lined up. How are you
        >going to do that with 35mm figs? Too expensive-and the figs will look
        >silly next 25mm to 30mm figs.
        >
        >
        >
        >> As I see it, it's because larger figures sell better. It
        >> really comes down to putting a 25mm figure side by side with a 35mm
        >> figure and the average gamer will be naturally drawn to the larger
        >> sized figure first. That's 90% of the battle in getting the sale.
        >
        >I don't know how true that is? How is Reaper doing? How about
        >Ironwind? They seem to sell real well in my area-and they are 25-
        >28mm. Rackham-unless they get a good game under their belt-will never
        >dominate stateside. I mean really, you could make some good money
        >from painters..but the money-in my opinion, is in the faithful gamer
        >who loves your stuff and buys on a continual basis.(and not the
        >painter who buys 20.00-and doesn't touch your stuff for six months
        >after the sale) I just can't imagine getting excited about fighting a
        >skirmish battle with 6 35mm figs that cost me 50.00. Now, 25-50 figs
        >with some big monsters-now that is a battle:)!!
        >Patrick Herget
        >Knight Terror Games
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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      • hellionproductions
        As someone who usually does more machine-works than sculpted figs, I ve gone to 1/60th scale when it comes to establishing heights of pilots, infantry, and the
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 1, 2002
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          As someone who usually does more machine-works than sculpted figs,
          I've gone to 1/60th scale when it comes to establishing heights of
          pilots, infantry, and the like. Thus, in 1/60th scale, 1 inch equals
          5 ft. That makes your average 6ft male 1.2 inches tall in stocking
          feet, well within the margin of error for 25/28mm figs.

          Best,
          John Bear Ross
          Hellion Productions
          http://www.hellionproductions.com
        • elfesylvainfr
          Hum, I should clarify a few thing: what I say wasn t necesserly contradictory with your own vision and you might have misanderstood some of my words (certainly
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 1, 2002
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            Hum, I should clarify a few thing: what I say wasn't necesserly
            contradictory with your own vision and you might have misanderstood
            some of my words (certainly my fault, shouldn't reply so late in the
            night, I'm always surprised with the stupid things I had say the day
            before..)

            --- In 1listSculpting@y..., "Eric J Gibson" <hellsreach@l...> wrote:
            > I simply cannot believe that a model larger than 28mm is good where
            appropriate.
            >
            > All I am saying that there is pluses to having another standard (of
            35mm) to show up on the scene. Obviously, I wouldn't suggest it for
            an model for model recreation of the Battle of Gettysburg or
            anything, but if your game requires less peices, then everyone can
            benefit. Sculpter, Caster, and Collecter.

            I agree with you. most people problem is that people consider them as
            25 figs, so the seem wrong.

            > The suggestion that some believe companies are producing larger
            models to exclude other model/casting companies is not totally
            accurate, because usually the bid companies are rather exclusive by
            the nature of there game itself. How many other companies produce
            Tyranids? How about Space Marines? The answer...none! And if they
            did, they wouldn't need to worry about scale because the lawyers
            would be problem enough.

            What about orcs, elves, humans etc... which represant biggest part of
            buisness... ( and you can find SM and aliens from others companies
            even if they look different). I agree it's not the reason why GW make
            bigger minis (I never say that for GW usual ranges anyway).


            >
            > Models ARE getting bigger, but it is because they want more
            detailed models. I personally don't see anything wrong with this. As
            I have said before, I have total respect for sculpers and collectors
            of 10, 15, and 25mm models, and some games should ONLY be played with
            models of this scale. But if you are going to have a war-game that is
            TRYING (I stress trying) to capture some of the essence of Role-
            playing games, that is the individual personality of each and each
            character, that why not go larger? Take Inquistor for example (a
            crappy game by the way) It is a light skermish game, usually only 2-5
            models per side. Sure you COULD have models that are 25 or 28mm and
            play on all day long on a coffee table, but the fact remains, that
            MOST war-gamers already have a table anywhere from 4' -8' somewhere
            available to them and why not have a bigger table, with bigger guys
            that one can have more fun painting and converting or just plain
            getting "in to". That is why Inquistor is 54mm. Beca
            > use it's appropriate to the scale of the game!
            >
            > Everyone has there favorite scale. Everyone was thier own opinion,
            but come on folks, don't start making it out like a model larger than
            28mm is somehow not a "real" mini and is somehow betraying our art.
            Because if you believe that a large sculpture is somehow a poorer
            sculpter, than you should have a look at Michelanglo's David!

            I never said bigger scale sculptors are poorer! it's a question of
            habit (I'm actualy trying 54mm actualy and don't think it's easier!
            the problems are just different, like working with bigger masses of
            putty..).
            You could do as many details on 25 than 35 figs but it's more
            confortable to work at 32 or 35mm scale. Many sculptors also don't
            realy care about scale and do what they want (never said it was a
            problem, just a constat). Bigger mini also look more clear or more
            clean.

            Concerning Michelanglo, I also work on more "academic" art (with good
            fedback) and will not contradict you on this.



            > As for GW's LotR...Hate to break it to you. They aren't producing
            some special scale. They are REAL 28mm (which IS a standard) and not
            32mm (which is not)

            First I didn't mean GW lotr are 32, that was for mithril figs only
            which ARE at a 32mm scale standard.
            What I had in mind was that GW make lotr figs are smaller so the
            gamers can not mix them with warhammer figs ( maybe because of
            NewLine, it seem they don't want both range to be used together...).
            It's true that the correct proportion for movie realism is the
            biggest element in their 2 ranges differences.


            I think we have similar opinion on many point and few divergences but
            have problem to understand each other (language doesn't help!).
            I'm not a 25mm purist and if I like a mini I don't realy bother scale
            (I'm a sculptor first and apreciate nice sculpting, and a painter
            second, so I don't realy have gamer's problem with scale!).If all
            mini in a particuliar range have coherante sizes alltogether that
            enough for me!
            35 scale seems to be a new step as 28 was one compared to 25mm. there
            was an intermediair at 32 (still my favourite), wich is a standard
            for a few companies (mithril and Rackham, if I remember correctly:
            there mini had to be sculpted at 30mm to eye, so they are 32 to top).

            And to finish with this debat, you say 28 mm haven't right
            proportions, and I agree for many. You can point out GW and I'll
            still agree for some of their sculptors but I have in mind Aenur, an
            elf for mordheim by Brian Nelson who has just perfect proportions
            (IMO, and if you accept a light stylisation) (maybe 32mm, he is just
            a tall elf) which is the proof that you can make accurate models at
            28mm scale.
            Scale is just everyone's cup of tea and we should stop arguing: it's
            good we have as much choice as possible, we'll all agree with that.

            Bye,
            Sylvain
          • Eric J Gibson
            --I agree! Don t get me wrong, I like a good arguement, but this one is beaten (like a dead horse). My biggest point of contention with this topic was (not
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 1, 2002
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              --I agree!

              Don't get me wrong, I like a good arguement, but this one is beaten (like a dead horse).

              My biggest point of contention with this topic was (not with you by the way, Sylvain) that there are some people of this list who have suggested that that model over 28mm where somehow inferior or "not a REAL mini". Standardization of scale is really nice, but when it comes down to it, companies, whether large or independant, should have the right to make thier minis at whatever size they think is appropriate.

              By the way, sorry if I sounded like I was angerly ranting (it sounded like it to me upon re-reading) in my last letter. But I too was tired and had a bad day prior.

              Later!-
              Thank You,
              Eric Gibson



              On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 05:49:38
              elfesylvainfr wrote:
              >Hum, I should clarify a few thing: what I say wasn't necesserly
              >contradictory with your own vision and you might have misanderstood
              >some of my words (certainly my fault, shouldn't reply so late in the
              >night, I'm always surprised with the stupid things I had say the day
              >before..)
              >
              >--- In 1listSculpting@y..., "Eric J Gibson" <hellsreach@l...> wrote:
              >> I simply cannot believe that a model larger than 28mm is good where
              >appropriate.
              >>
              >> All I am saying that there is pluses to having another standard (of
              >35mm) to show up on the scene. Obviously, I wouldn't suggest it for
              >an model for model recreation of the Battle of Gettysburg or
              >anything, but if your game requires less peices, then everyone can
              >benefit. Sculpter, Caster, and Collecter.
              >
              >I agree with you. most people problem is that people consider them as
              >25 figs, so the seem wrong.
              >
              >> The suggestion that some believe companies are producing larger
              >models to exclude other model/casting companies is not totally
              >accurate, because usually the bid companies are rather exclusive by
              >the nature of there game itself. How many other companies produce
              >Tyranids? How about Space Marines? The answer...none! And if they
              >did, they wouldn't need to worry about scale because the lawyers
              >would be problem enough.
              >
              >What about orcs, elves, humans etc... which represant biggest part of
              >buisness... ( and you can find SM and aliens from others companies
              >even if they look different). I agree it's not the reason why GW make
              >bigger minis (I never say that for GW usual ranges anyway).
              >
              >
              >>
              >> Models ARE getting bigger, but it is because they want more
              >detailed models. I personally don't see anything wrong with this. As
              >I have said before, I have total respect for sculpers and collectors
              >of 10, 15, and 25mm models, and some games should ONLY be played with
              >models of this scale. But if you are going to have a war-game that is
              >TRYING (I stress trying) to capture some of the essence of Role-
              >playing games, that is the individual personality of each and each
              >character, that why not go larger? Take Inquistor for example (a
              >crappy game by the way) It is a light skermish game, usually only 2-5
              >models per side. Sure you COULD have models that are 25 or 28mm and
              >play on all day long on a coffee table, but the fact remains, that
              >MOST war-gamers already have a table anywhere from 4' -8' somewhere
              >available to them and why not have a bigger table, with bigger guys
              >that one can have more fun painting and converting or just plain
              >getting "in to". That is why Inquistor is 54mm. Beca
              >> use it's appropriate to the scale of the game!
              >>
              >> Everyone has there favorite scale. Everyone was thier own opinion,
              >but come on folks, don't start making it out like a model larger than
              >28mm is somehow not a "real" mini and is somehow betraying our art.
              >Because if you believe that a large sculpture is somehow a poorer
              >sculpter, than you should have a look at Michelanglo's David!
              >
              >I never said bigger scale sculptors are poorer! it's a question of
              >habit (I'm actualy trying 54mm actualy and don't think it's easier!
              >the problems are just different, like working with bigger masses of
              >putty..).
              >You could do as many details on 25 than 35 figs but it's more
              >confortable to work at 32 or 35mm scale. Many sculptors also don't
              >realy care about scale and do what they want (never said it was a
              >problem, just a constat). Bigger mini also look more clear or more
              >clean.
              >
              >Concerning Michelanglo, I also work on more "academic" art (with good
              >fedback) and will not contradict you on this.
              >
              >
              >
              >> As for GW's LotR...Hate to break it to you. They aren't producing
              >some special scale. They are REAL 28mm (which IS a standard) and not
              >32mm (which is not)
              >
              >First I didn't mean GW lotr are 32, that was for mithril figs only
              >which ARE at a 32mm scale standard.
              >What I had in mind was that GW make lotr figs are smaller so the
              >gamers can not mix them with warhammer figs ( maybe because of
              >NewLine, it seem they don't want both range to be used together...).
              >It's true that the correct proportion for movie realism is the
              >biggest element in their 2 ranges differences.
              >
              >
              >I think we have similar opinion on many point and few divergences but
              >have problem to understand each other (language doesn't help!).
              >I'm not a 25mm purist and if I like a mini I don't realy bother scale
              >(I'm a sculptor first and apreciate nice sculpting, and a painter
              >second, so I don't realy have gamer's problem with scale!).If all
              >mini in a particuliar range have coherante sizes alltogether that
              >enough for me!
              >35 scale seems to be a new step as 28 was one compared to 25mm. there
              >was an intermediair at 32 (still my favourite), wich is a standard
              >for a few companies (mithril and Rackham, if I remember correctly:
              >there mini had to be sculpted at 30mm to eye, so they are 32 to top).
              >
              >And to finish with this debat, you say 28 mm haven't right
              >proportions, and I agree for many. You can point out GW and I'll
              >still agree for some of their sculptors but I have in mind Aenur, an
              >elf for mordheim by Brian Nelson who has just perfect proportions
              >(IMO, and if you accept a light stylisation) (maybe 32mm, he is just
              >a tall elf) which is the proof that you can make accurate models at
              >28mm scale.
              >Scale is just everyone's cup of tea and we should stop arguing: it's
              >good we have as much choice as possible, we'll all agree with that.
              >
              >Bye,
              >Sylvain
              >
              >
              >


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