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Re: [1listSculpting] Re: A question for the IP legal experts...

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  • Keith Goreham
    From: Mark Cathro2IIRC then these castings are for your own use, on your own army and not for sale to third parties; Right? Any
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 30, 2001
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      From: "Mark Cathro2" <mcathro@...>

      > IIRC then these castings are for your own use, on your own army and not
      > for sale to third parties; Right? Any copyright violation is still a
      > copyright violation but it is up to GW to pursue infringers and they
      > have a history of doing so it seems. But keep in mind that you are
      > presumably doing this for your own use, if this is so then I don't see
      > why GW would even bother to harrass an avid gamer/modeler when they
      > don't supply an alternative.

      Copyright law doesn't bar you from making new arms for GW minis. AFAIK it
      doesn't even bar you from casting copies of GW minis. You're only violating
      copyright when you sell (And in some cases simply distribute.) another's work as
      your own. You can do whatever you like with anything you like for your own use.
      It's the selling of creations based on someone else's work that you have to
      watch out for.

      example:

      You sculpt new Catachan arms from scratch, cast them, and sell them to others
      under some non-GW trademark. -GOOD

      You add some green stuff sleeves to an existing Catachan arm, cast them, and
      sell them as "Catachan Arms" -BAD

      KeithG


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    • Russell Jones
      ... AFAIK it ... violating ... another s work as ... GW could still give you a cease and desist order and if you did not obey it they could (and probably
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 1, 2001
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        --- In 1listSculpting@y..., "Keith Goreham" <keith_goreham@y...>
        wrote:
        > Copyright law doesn't bar you from making new arms for GW minis.
        AFAIK it
        > doesn't even bar you from casting copies of GW minis. You're only
        violating
        > copyright when you sell (And in some cases simply distribute.)
        another's work as
        > your own.




        GW could still give you a cease and desist order and if you did not
        obey it they could (and probably would) sue you.
        If you were to make copies or related pieces that have no market
        except for GW games and minis then they have a more solid basis for
        sueing you than if these things were original or derivative of some
        other product. If you made these pieces and gave them away GW could
        sue because of a loss of sales.
        In the end, if you go too far, these things will be decided after
        months/years and thousands of dollars in legal fees with the ultimate
        decision being up to a judge.
        You should ask yourself, "is this how I want to spend my life?".

        -Jones



        >You can do whatever you like with anything you like for your own use.
        > It's the selling of creations based on someone else's work that you
        have to
        > watch out for.
        >
        > example:
        >
        > You sculpt new Catachan arms from scratch, cast them, and sell them
        to others
        > under some non-GW trademark. -GOOD
        >
        > You add some green stuff sleeves to an existing Catachan arm, cast
        them, and
        > sell them as "Catachan Arms" -BAD
        >
        > KeithG
        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________
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        > Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Keith Goreham
        From: Russell JonesGW could still give you a cease and desist order and if you did not obey it they could (and probably
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 3, 2001
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          From: "Russell Jones" <rustyjjones_x1@...>

          > GW could still give you a cease and desist order and if you did not
          > obey it they could (and probably would) sue you.

          They could give me a cease and desist order against mowing my lawn. But it's not
          legally enforcable unless I'm breaking a law.

          > If you were to make copies or related pieces that have no market
          > except for GW games and minis then they have a more solid basis for
          > sueing you than if these things were original or derivative of some
          > other product.

          If I were to make copies of their miniatures for my own private use then I would
          not be violating copyright. It would be illegal to sell that army later. But, if
          I added enough individual labor to that army (painting, conversions,
          arrangement, etc.) we'd enter a nebulus area where one could argue the entirety
          of the work constituted a new piece of art in itself. And that the copied
          miniatures represented only a commodity part. Similar to the relationship of
          individual tires to a car.

          > If you made these pieces and gave them away GW could
          > sue because of a loss of sales.

          If I gave away casted copies of their miniatures, yes they could. If, however, I
          give away or sell new Catachan arms that I've sculpted and casted myself they
          can't do anything unless they can prove that I'm trying to pass my work off as
          an official GW product. --Thereby diluting their brand. But if my packaging
          makes it clear that my "Keith's Workshop" arms are only "Catachan compatable"
          they won't win the lawsuit.

          > In the end, if you go too far, these things will be decided after
          > months/years and thousands of dollars in legal fees with the ultimate
          > decision being up to a judge.
          > You should ask yourself, "is this how I want to spend my life?".

          If you don't wish to spend your life cringing in fear of a corporation then it
          behooves you to understand the law. And this one in particular.

          KeithG


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        • BatHead207@AOL.com
          In a message dated 12/03/2001 4:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... That s a common misconception. Doesn t matter if you re only doing it for your own private
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 3, 2001
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            In a message dated 12/03/2001 4:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            keith_goreham@... writes:


            > If I were to make copies of their miniatures for my own private use then I
            > would
            > not be violating copyright.

            That's a common misconception. Doesn't matter if you're only doing it for
            your own private use, it's still illegal.

            Cliff Linton
            Sculptor for Grim Reaper Casting,
            Maker of the "Nasteez" line of Fantasy miniatures
            Contact:
            grc1991@...
            BatHead207@...
            Phone: 1(610) 998-9277
            Fax: 1(610) 998-9279
            Webpage:http://www.grimreapercasting.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Russell Jones
            I was thinking of suing the next guy who walks through my door for all the money in the world on the grounds that he bugs me . Wish me luck. Jones ... not
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 3, 2001
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              I was thinking of suing the next guy who walks through my door
              for "all the money in the world" on the grounds that
              "he bugs me". Wish me luck.

              Jones



              --- In 1listSculpting@y..., "Keith Goreham" <keith_goreham@y...>
              wrote:
              > From: "Russell Jones" <rustyjjones_x1@h...>
              >
              > > GW could still give you a cease and desist order and if you did
              not
              > > obey it they could (and probably would) sue you.
              >
              > They could give me a cease and desist order against mowing my lawn.
              But it's not
              > legally enforcable unless I'm breaking a law.
              >
              > > If you were to make copies or related pieces that have no market
              > > except for GW games and minis then they have a more solid basis
              for
              > > sueing you than if these things were original or derivative of
              some
              > > other product.
              >
              > If I were to make copies of their miniatures for my own private use
              then I would
              > not be violating copyright. It would be illegal to sell that army
              later. But, if
              > I added enough individual labor to that army (painting, conversions,
              > arrangement, etc.) we'd enter a nebulus area where one could argue
              the entirety
              > of the work constituted a new piece of art in itself. And that the
              copied
              > miniatures represented only a commodity part. Similar to the
              relationship of
              > individual tires to a car.
              >
              > > If you made these pieces and gave them away GW could
              > > sue because of a loss of sales.
              >
              > If I gave away casted copies of their miniatures, yes they could.
              If, however, I
              > give away or sell new Catachan arms that I've sculpted and casted
              myself they
              > can't do anything unless they can prove that I'm trying to pass my
              work off as
              > an official GW product. --Thereby diluting their brand. But if my
              packaging
              > makes it clear that my "Keith's Workshop" arms are only "Catachan
              compatable"
              > they won't win the lawsuit.
              >
              > > In the end, if you go too far, these things will be decided after
              > > months/years and thousands of dollars in legal fees with the
              ultimate
              > > decision being up to a judge.
              > > You should ask yourself, "is this how I want to spend my life?".
              >
              > If you don't wish to spend your life cringing in fear of a
              corporation then it
              > behooves you to understand the law. And this one in particular.
              >
              > KeithG
              >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
            • Ironrook
              [snip] ... [snip] ... I believe you are mistaken. We ve discussed this issue thoroughly on numerous occasions. Private or personal use does not equal Fair
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 3, 2001
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                [snip]
                >If I were to make copies of their miniatures for my own private use
                >then I would
                >not be violating copyright. It would be illegal to sell that army later.
                [snip]
                >
                >If you don't wish to spend your life cringing in fear of a corporation then it
                >behooves you to understand the law. And this one in particular.
                >
                >KeithG

                I believe you are mistaken.
                We've discussed this issue thoroughly on numerous occasions.
                Private or "personal" use does not equal "Fair Use".

                for further details on "fair use" check out the archive.
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1listSculpting/message/3196

                A fairly complete discussion on piracy starts here.
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1listSculpting/message/3129

                Pay particular attention to comments from Bob Lippman. He is a
                practicing IP attorney and I would consider him an authority on this
                subject.

                I don't see much point in ruffling feathers and rehashing this tired subject.


                --

                mailto:ironrook@...
              • Dallas
                One more note.. Bob had a fairly thourough discussion about minis and the law on his web site. ... Pay particular attention to comments from Bob Lippman. He
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 3, 2001
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                  One more note.. Bob had a fairly thourough discussion about minis and the law on his web site.

                  >>>snip


                  Pay particular attention to comments from Bob Lippman. He is a
                  practicing IP attorney and I would consider him an authority on this
                  subject.


                  >>>snip


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ripple@acm.org
                  ... But it s not ... A few years ago, I read a case where a burglar broke into someone s house through an upstairs window. He slipped on a toy that was on the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 3, 2001
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                    --- In 1listSculpting@y..., "Keith Goreham" <keith_goreham@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > From: "Russell Jones" <rustyjjones_x1@h...>

                    > They could give me a cease and desist order against mowing my lawn.
                    But it's not
                    > legally enforcable unless I'm breaking a law.

                    A few years ago, I read a case where a burglar broke into someone's
                    house through an upstairs window. He slipped on a toy that was on
                    the floor and fell down the stairs, breaking an arm and both his
                    legs. He sued the people who owned the house for negligence and won
                    a LOT of cash. Hey, if he can get away with that, I'm sure they can
                    find a way to sue you for mowing your lawn...

                    > > If you were to make copies or related pieces that have no market
                    > > except for GW games and minis then they have a more solid basis
                    for
                    > > sueing you than if these things were original or derivative of
                    some
                    > > other product.
                    >
                    > If I were to make copies of their miniatures for my own private use
                    then I would
                    > not be violating copyright. It would be illegal to sell that army
                    later. But, if
                    > I added enough individual labor to that army (painting, conversions,
                    > arrangement, etc.) we'd enter a nebulus area where one could argue
                    the entirety
                    > of the work constituted a new piece of art in itself. And that the
                    copied
                    > miniatures represented only a commodity part. Similar to the
                    relationship of
                    > individual tires to a car.

                    Wrong. In today's wonderful world of implied copyrights and hidden
                    licensing, a company does NOT have to inform you of the legal
                    restrictions involved with their products. For example, if you walk
                    into a Best Buy and buy every piece of software on their shelves,
                    you'd actually own maybe one or two programs - you're really just
                    buying a license to use the rest - meaning you can't legally sell or
                    even give it away!

                    As far as miniatures go, they are considered a branded product,
                    meaning that their names and general appearance are unique to that
                    company. Duplication of a branded product is ILLEGAL unless you have
                    written permission from the company itself. Without that permission,
                    it is implied that permission to duplicate is NOT granted, and
                    therefore illegal - regardless of why you are duplicating.

                    > > If you made these pieces and gave them away GW could
                    > > sue because of a loss of sales.
                    >
                    > If I gave away casted copies of their miniatures, yes they could.
                    If, however, I
                    > give away or sell new Catachan arms that I've sculpted and casted
                    myself they
                    > can't do anything unless they can prove that I'm trying to pass my
                    work off as
                    > an official GW product. --Thereby diluting their brand. But if my
                    packaging
                    > makes it clear that my "Keith's Workshop" arms are only "Catachan
                    compatable"
                    > they won't win the lawsuit.

                    Heh...bad example. "Catachan" is a name trademarked by GW - so you
                    couldn't even say that the arms are intended for the Catachan models
                    without permission! (However, you point is valid provided that you
                    don't use any trademarked terms - and your designs are generic enough
                    to avoid being marked as imitations of their branded product.)

                    Basically, to do anything with or for anyone's product, it is always
                    best to get permission first. Each company grants a certain amount
                    of leeway for conversions and such - but remember that every company
                    is different. For example, GW obviously encourages conversions - but
                    there are limits. On the other hand, another company may not allow
                    alterations of their miniatures beyond painting. They would NOT be
                    required to inform you of such a policy before sueing you. The
                    burden of information rests with the consumer.
                  • Keith Goreham
                    From: Ironrook[snip] If I were to make copies of their miniatures for my own private use then I would not be violating
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 4, 2001
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                      From: "Ironrook" <ironrook@...>


                      > [snip]
                      > >If I were to make copies of their miniatures for my own private use
                      > >then I would
                      > >not be violating copyright. It would be illegal to sell that army later.
                      > [snip]
                      >
                      > I believe you are mistaken

                      <reads actual law>

                      Yup, I was.

                      KeithG


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