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Re: a question

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  • phoenix666rising
    I am a firm beleiver that all books, no matter how badly written in some s opinion, have something to teach us. Even if it is simply to not buy their books
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 2, 2006
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      I am a firm beleiver that all books, no matter how badly written in
      some's opinion, have something to teach us. Even if it is simply to
      not buy their books again...lol

      Have you already tried the Brujeria groups?

      Peace,
      ~*Jo*~






      --- In 1curanderismo@yahoogroups.com, Antonio <benedicaria@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Im pretty sure it was in fact a book by Montenegro that I found the
      > references to El Cristo Negro and El Cristo Rey, but I couldn't
      find any
      > information other than the names for th emost part, does anyone
      have any
      > info on them or what they are petitioned for, things like that? I
      tried
      > searching online but the search results only returned the
      references I had
      > already found in the book. Also, as a side note, I too have
      liked many of
      > the things I read from the couple of Montenegro books I have.
      >
      > On 8/30/06, phoenix666rising <phoenix666rising@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I'm sorry..but why would you make such a blanket statement
      about Mr.
      > > Montenegro's work?
      > >
      > > I have had the pleasure of meeting the man and he is nothing but
      > > forthright and extremely knowledgable. Maybe you do not like his
      > > style of writing or whatever , but as a huge fan of his work, to
      > > make such an all encompassing , non-factual statement seem to me
      > > quite rude & presumptuous unlees you are an authority on such
      > > matters.
      > >
      > > Next time, why not simply add "IMHO..." unless of course, you
      have
      > > written as many books on the subjects he covers as he. (-_-)
      > >
      > > Peace,
      > > ~P~
      > >
      > > --- In 1curanderismo@yahoogroups.com <1curanderismo%
      40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > "Christopher Bilardi"
      > > <CBILARDI@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I think they are South American and not Mexican per se. I saw
      some
      > > stuff written about them by Carlos Montenegro, but you really
      can't
      > > depend on his material.
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: Antonio
      > > > To: 1curanderismo@yahoogroups.com <1curanderismo%
      40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 4:31 PM
      > > > Subject: [1curanderismo] a question
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Does anyone have information on the spirits known as "El Cristo
      > > Negro" and El Cristo Rey"? I came across some references to them
      > > but can't seem to find anything on the net about them. Any info
      > > would be great..
      > > > thanks to all...
      > > >
      > > > antonio
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Bryant
      Hi. I was just looking at old messages on the server and I saw this. Cristo Negro is a common theme throughout Christianity, dating from the period at the end
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 12, 2006
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        Hi. I was just looking at old messages on the server and I saw this.

        Cristo Negro is a common theme throughout Christianity, dating from
        the period at the end of a time of persecution, wherein relics from
        churches that had been buried were supposed to have been dug up,
        often on a haphazard basis by ploughmen, for example. As many of
        these relics were crucifixes wherein the figure of Christ had been
        wrought in silver, and then they were dug up, the silver had turned
        black. This appearance was to make them the focal points of matters
        of race in many aspects, as one might imagine, given the lack of
        anything else to focus on. In Mexico, there are several black
        Cristos, and they each have all of their own local lore. But their
        cultural roots go back to these original silver idols which the Early
        Roman and Greek Christians buried during a period of persecution of
        their sects.

        One thing that scholars have proven, I believe (I read this in what I
        think is a credible Mexican magazine), is that a very famous Cristo
        Negro in Mexico City is actually built on the site of the sacred cave
        of Tezcatlipoca and that there are supposedly (or theoretically)
        some persons in some sort of sect connected with that. I don't know
        if that means that these folks are ensconced there among the priests
        or something, in there among the parishioners, or that they are more
        likely a dance troop run by a hairdresser who like to emphasize their
        Indian roots an awful lot. One has to be careful about what these
        reports actually purport, because writers have all sorts of axes to
        grind.

        So, do I think that there is a connection between the cave and the
        black cristo? Yes, I do. But I think that there is likely a sect
        there, but I think it would be so secret that no one would ever know
        a thing about it and that would insulate it entirely from anything
        that anyone could find out just snooping around down there or hooking
        up with the types who love to pose for the cameras – dancers, models,
        actors and people selling trinkets and stuff, or perhaps a package
        trip to go to the pyramids and align crystal skulls and stuff.

        I think that the Tezcatlipoca that the Mexica (the Aztecs of Mexico
        City, who ruled the empire conquered by Cortez) brought down from the
        North was their unique god, representing their ancestral figure –
        sort of their Moses or Abraham, or Adam, even. His idol or symbol or
        whatever they had dwelt in a cave in or near their place of
        settlement and governance in what had previously been their homeland,
        and this must have been a cave, because when they arrived on their
        Island at Tenochtitlan they chose a cave to be the sacred place of
        their ancestor, in a manner of speaking. This all serves to make the
        myth very potent, of course, which is the connection between the
        Cristo Negro of this particular shrine or church there in Mexico City
        and the "person" of Tezcatlipoca, who figures very heavily in the
        imaginations of writers about Mexico and especially those who are
        busily inventing myths about what Mexican culture means and so forth.
        It is as if he were very much alive, what with his name being invoked
        so much.

        Now he, I think, is an example of a thread of Mexica culture that has
        survived rather well, under the circumstances, wherein one could (I
        suppose, proudly) point to as having weathered the assault of Spanish
        and Catholic suppression to the point that he is invoked and that he
        does have power, after a fashion, that those invoked by his erstwhile
        oppressors cannot get, since his popularity so overwhelmingly
        eclipses theirs.

        The actual connection to the Indians and to surviving Indian
        practices, and the relationships of Meztizos and Whites to Indian
        curanderos is a worthy subject indeed, and it should be explored in
        depth. Unfortunately, the bizarre caricatures that we see on the part
        of new age exploiters and the sort of thing that many very
        commercially driven Mexican operators will resort to in order to
        fulfill the fantasies of so many willing clients for this sort of
        thing – all of this is not going to help one bit in examining what
        the traditional relationships were all about, where do their
        historical roots like, what actually goes on and what is the thinking
        process and the spiritual concepts and so forth, and then, once one
        has a good grasp on all of that, one can say how much, exactly,
        traditional Indian items from pre-Hispanic times are present in the
        formula and what is their relationship to the overall cosmology or
        whatever – and you can see what I am getting at, right?

        Curanderismo has no formal doctrine of its own. Believers subscribe
        to Catholic doctrine, so everything is very much integrated into
        Catholicism, with curanderos and their followers believing in the
        powers of Catholic prayers, and in the powers of the saints to
        perform miracles. Traditional Mexican curanderos, normally, have
        always devoted much of their time trying to remove spells from
        patients who are sort of like victims of spiritual aggression, and
        the aggressors are their traditional adversaries, the witches
        (brujas). There are people who are ambiguous about their status in
        this relationship. There are also lots of frauds and charlatans of
        all sorts. Traditionally, Mexicans, like in their movies especially,
        have looked on curanderos in a bad light, showing them as witch
        doctors and exploiters of the ignorant, ready to be brushed aside by
        modern medicine as soon as ignorance can be overcome by the march of
        progress, and all that. This practice of portraying them in that
        light is longstanding. There is the scene from the India Maria movie
        where she takes to the gringo to see the brujo to cure his leg that
        he accidentally shot himself in. It was a rather degrading and racist
        parody, but no one found it too objectionable, it seems. Then the is
        Salma Hayak's mother in El Callejon de los Milagros, where Salma's
        mother is doing limpias and reading tarot cards in her home, in a
        setting that reminded me of some of the beauty shops my wife goes to
        in Ojinaga, where these frustrated women talk all of this gossip.
        There is a very important one, I think, in one of those movies they
        made about the Mexican Revolution, where the protagonist is a doctor
        who is supposed to save this young rebel partisan who got shot, and
        first they traipse out the caricature Mexican brujo, possibly the
        model for the one in the later India Maria movie, and he does the
        most shtick thing that they can come up with, which is to spray
        chicken blood all over the patient and everything else (I don't
        remember how much he hammed it up, actually, they probably cut it
        pretty quick). But that was a serious movie, and had good writing and
        it was very philosophical and all of that. Nevertheless, it instantly
        judged the matter of who is right and who is wrong when it comes to
        medicine and science, before proceeding to belabor the point.

        But the movie that really took the bull by the horns – and takes the
        cake, too - was one (and I can't remember the title, but it should be
        easy to find) that starred "El Indio" Fernandez (who was in some of
        those Lee Marvin/Clint Eastwood style spaghetti westerns that
        featured Pancho Villa type of goings on in Mexico – the guy with the
        scary face and little beady eyes). In this movie (not the Western)
        Fernandez plays "El Niño Anacleto" – an obvious reference to El Niño
        Fidencio. And one can trace an already well prepared set of
        prejudices fuel by the not so recent Cristero rebellions and by the
        item that likely quite largely in the development of the Fidencio
        mystique, and that was the movement that had centered on the person
        of "La Niña" Teresita Urrea, La Santa de Cabora, who figured heavily
        in Heriberto Frias's novel "Tomochi", which was required reading in
        Mexican schools (according to a friend of mine who graduated, I
        think, in the 1950's or so). That the novel would have had more of an
        influence on the spread of the fame of Urrea, or would rather some
        other circumstances relating to something else, she clearly provided
        the model for Fidencio and also the focus on the relationship between
        curanderos, and especially ones who were the objects of sects, which
        many of them are prone to become whether they like it or not. She
        especially provided a context in which they came to be viewed, and
        thus writers of movie scripts, in feeling the pulse of the population
        to see what sorts of ideas that they would identify with and relate
        to, these suppositions that were already in place due to recent and
        not-so-recent history would influence what they would eventually come
        up with.

        The notion of holding up all of these folk practices has not been
        advanced by Mexicans, by and large, until relatively recently. One
        can certainly thank Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo for overcoming much
        of the negative inertia which had always relegated Mexican native
        culture to a low standing in the eyes of those who traded in art,
        history, culture, and any enterprises which parlayed this sort of
        thing into businesses, like architects, art dealers, decorators,
        booksellers, and whomever. But, really, it was another set of
        outsiders, artists and art critics and historians from Europe who
        fled to Mexico to escape the fascists, who brought all of this to the
        attention of Rivera and, one has to suppose, Kahlo at the same time.
        Rivera turned around and lionized the Indians at every turn, as a
        counter to all of the reactionary stuff that Catholic fascists were
        doing all over the place during that period. So, right or wrong, a
        series of myths came into fruition which are true to a certain
        extent, but which tend to simplify things to much and to also gloss
        over a lot of important stuff. This is the foundation, then, for
        further myths that are constructed in order to support new causes and
        to embrace someone's whole presentation with a mantle of mystique and
        heavy roots, and all of that. It makes smashing material for spray
        can artwork.

        Some of the Catholic artwork and the obvious racist material that it
        portrays is certainly detestable, and it comes from a very bloody
        past wherein warfare with the Moors was part of an overall mentality
        invested in the crusader culture, and then its aggression was locked
        into a pattern of warfare with the Protestants to the North.

        Aztec theology, as far as the cults which were considered state
        enterprises and which bolstered the power of the saint, had much of
        the same character in that sense as did the religion of the Spanish
        conquerors, so elements of Aztec religion would be automatically
        undergo syncretism in a very organic fashion, wherein it would
        essentially disappear under the increasingly more covering mantle
        laid over it by the priests and the friars.

        Certain cults, however, would not be oppressed or assimilated, but
        these are almost always regional things that are practiced by Indians
        of certain tribes only, and they are certainly more invaded by
        Catholic trappings than they have invaded the thinking of the
        population outside of their tribe. Exceptions to this have to do with
        people who are not Indians going to see Indian curanderos, which is
        not uncommon.

        Bryant

        --- In 1curanderismo@yahoogroups.com, Antonio <benedicaria@...> wrote:
        >
        > Does anyone have information on the spirits known as "El Cristo
        Negro" and
        > El Cristo Rey"? I came across some references to them but can't
        seem to
        > find anything on the net about them. Any info would be great..
        > thanks to all...
        >
        > antonio
        >
      • Bryant
        The most notable thing that can be said about El Cristo Rey is that he was the icon of the Cristero movement, which fought a very bloody uprising against the
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 7, 2007
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          The most notable thing that can be said about El Cristo Rey is that he
          was the icon of the Cristero movement, which fought a very bloody
          uprising against the Mexican government in the late 1920's. Their
          battle cry was "Viva Cristo Rey!"

          Bryant

          --- In 1curanderismo@yahoogroups.com, Antonio <benedicaria@...> wrote:
          >
          > Does anyone have information on the spirits known as "El Cristo
          Negro" and
          > El Cristo Rey"? I came across some references to them but can't
          seem to
          > find anything on the net about them. Any info would be great..
          > thanks to all...
          >
          > antonio
          >
        • Michael Alexios
          Cristo Rey= Christ the King was a plea in part from the desparate people of Mexico for His power to help them rid them selves of the corrupt people in control
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 7, 2007
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            Cristo Rey= Christ the King  was a plea in part from the desparate people of Mexico for His power to help them rid them selves of the corrupt people in control of Mexico.  To place the country under the power of Christ to bring justice, mercy and freedom. The other more folk uses I am not sure of.

            Bryant <bryanth@...> wrote:
            The most notable thing that can be said about El Cristo Rey is that he
            was the icon of the Cristero movement, which fought a very bloody
            uprising against the Mexican government in the late 1920's. Their
            battle cry was "Viva Cristo Rey!"

            Bryant

            --- In 1curanderismo@ yahoogroups. com, Antonio <benedicaria@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Does anyone have information on the spirits known as "El Cristo
            Negro" and
            > El Cristo Rey"? I came across some references to them but can't
            seem to
            > find anything on the net about them. Any info would be great..
            > thanks to all...
            >
            > antonio
            >



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          • kvhic9@aol.com
            I read about a Cristo Negro in college. I believe it is in El Salvador, Nicaragua, or Honduras. Sorry, I m not quite sure of anything today. It was a
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 7, 2007
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              I read about a "Cristo Negro" in college. I believe it is in El
              Salvador, Nicaragua, or Honduras. Sorry, I'm not quite sure of
              anything today. It was a black or dark statue of Jesus which was found
              floating in the ocean or washed up on a beach many years ago and a lot
              people now visit the church where it's kept and they believe that
              prayers in it's presence are answered with miracles, at least at times.
              Sorry I don't remember the exact country.

              Kevin


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Michael Alexios <michaelalexios@...>
              To: 1curanderismo@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:23:54 -0700 (PDT)
              Subject: Re: [1curanderismo] Re: a question























              Cristo Rey= Christ the King  was a plea in part from the
              desparate people of Mexico for His power to help them rid them selves
              of the corrupt people in control of Mexico.  To place the country under
              the power of Christ to bring justice, mercy and freedom. The other more
              folk uses I am not sure of.

              Bryant <bryanth@...> wrote: The most notable thing
              that can be said about El Cristo Rey is that he
              was the icon of the Cristero movement, which fought a very bloody
              uprising against the Mexican government
              in the late 1920's. Their
              battle cry was "Viva Cristo Rey!"

              Bryant

              --- In 1curanderismo@yahoogroups.com, Antonio <benedicaria@...> wrote:
              >
              > Does anyone have information on the spirits known as "El Cristo
              Negro" and
              > El Cristo Rey"? I came across some references to them but can't
              seem to
              > find anything on the net about them. Any info would be great..
              > thanks to all...
              >
              > antonio
              >




              ------------------------------------------------------------
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            • E Bryant Holman
              That is not exactly how I would describe the cristero movement. It was more about politics in Europe than anything else, really. It was an outgrowth of events
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 8, 2007
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                That is not exactly how I would describe the cristero movement. It was more about politics in Europe than anything else, really. It was an outgrowth of events in Spain, wherein the fascists, who were organized, in part, by reactionary elements in the Catholic Church (Jesuits and Opus Dei), were squaring off against the Republicans, as they called themselves, who were originally organized by the anarchist parties but later taken over by communists, in what would eventually become the Spanish Civil War.
                 
                The cristero rebellion started as a result of the Mexican government sending troops in to try and arrest a group of assassins who had been murdering schoolteachers, as the reactionaries in that part of Mexico, led largely by members of the clergy, were opposed to universal education. They wanted peasants, and especially Indians, to remain illiterate. Things escalated when the cristeros started actually attacking the soldiers and actively waging war against the government. It had nothing to do with corruption or anything of the sort. The government were not the oppressors here. The people who were trying to bring back plantation days were the ones who generated the violence, and, unfortunately, church authorities got in the thick of it.
                 
                The government overreacted, probably, I am sure, but everything was going pretty well, actually, before the cristeros decided to start assassinating all of those teachers. I know people who actually lived through all that, who witnessed massacres and such. It was pretty awful.
                 
                Bryant
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:23 PM
                Subject: Re: [1curanderismo] Re: a question

                Cristo Rey= Christ the King  was a plea in part from the desparate people of Mexico for His power to help them rid them selves of the corrupt people in control of Mexico.  To place the country under the power of Christ to bring justice, mercy and freedom. The other more folk uses I am not sure of.

                Bryant <bryanth@presidiotex .com> wrote:

                The most notable thing that can be said about El Cristo Rey is that he
                was the icon of the Cristero movement, which fought a very bloody
                uprising against the Mexican government in the late 1920's. Their
                battle cry was "Viva Cristo Rey!"

                Bryant

                --- In 1curanderismo@ yahoogroups. com, Antonio <benedicaria@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > Does anyone have information on the spirits known as "El Cristo
                Negro" and
                > El Cristo Rey"? I came across some references to them but can't
                seem to
                > find anything on the net about them. Any info would be great..
                > thanks to all...
                >
                > antonio
                >



                Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
                Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

              • Michael Alexios
                That is very interesting, I was only looking at the spiritual aspect, but the politics of religion are always working behind the scenes. Thanks for that, in a
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 8, 2007
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                  That is very interesting, I was only looking at the spiritual aspect, but the politics of religion are always working behind the scenes. Thanks for that, in a case of Jesuits, Opus Dei against the Republicans (communists)  YUK, what a choice, i would not like either!

                  E Bryant Holman <bryanth@...> wrote:
                  That is not exactly how I would describe the cristero movement. It was more about politics in Europe than anything else, really. It was an outgrowth of events in Spain, wherein the fascists, who were organized, in part, by reactionary elements in the Catholic Church (Jesuits and Opus Dei), were squaring off against the Republicans, as they called themselves, who were originally organized by the anarchist parties but later taken over by communists, in what would eventually become the Spanish Civil War.
                   
                  The cristero rebellion started as a result of the Mexican government sending troops in to try and arrest a group of assassins who had been murdering schoolteachers, as the reactionaries in that part of Mexico, led largely by members of the clergy, were opposed to universal education. They wanted peasants, and especially Indians, to remain illiterate. Things escalated when the cristeros started actually attacking the soldiers and actively waging war against the government. It had nothing to do with corruption or anything of the sort. The government were not the oppressors here. The people who were trying to bring back plantation days were the ones who generated the violence, and, unfortunately, church authorities got in the thick of it.
                   
                  The government overreacted, probably, I am sure, but everything was going pretty well, actually, before the cristeros decided to start assassinating all of those teachers. I know people who actually lived through all that, who witnessed massacres and such. It was pretty awful.
                   
                  Bryant
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:23 PM
                  Subject: Re: [1curanderismo] Re: a question

                  Cristo Rey= Christ the King  was a plea in part from the desparate people of Mexico for His power to help them rid them selves of the corrupt people in control of Mexico.  To place the country under the power of Christ to bring justice, mercy and freedom. The other more folk uses I am not sure of.

                  Bryant <bryanth@presidiotex .com> wrote:
                  The most notable thing that can be said about El Cristo Rey is that he
                  was the icon of the Cristero movement, which fought a very bloody
                  uprising against the Mexican government in the late 1920's. Their
                  battle cry was "Viva Cristo Rey!"

                  Bryant

                  --- In 1curanderismo@ yahoogroups. com, Antonio <benedicaria@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Does anyone have information on the spirits known as "El Cristo
                  Negro" and
                  > El Cristo Rey"? I came across some references to them but can't
                  seem to
                  > find anything on the net about them. Any info would be great..
                  > thanks to all...
                  >
                  > antonio
                  >



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                  Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.


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                • E Bryant Holman
                  It was a chapter following the events of the First World War which eventually arranged things in a way that set the stage for the Second World War. The Church
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 8, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    It was a chapter following the events of the First World War which eventually arranged things in a way that set the stage for the Second World War. The Church was in all this up to the hilt. They allied with Hitler and Mussolini, and priests were actually leaders of fascist groups who murdered huge numbers of innocent civilians in the most brutal manner. The cristero movement was sort of a backwater theater of operations for a much larger series of events centered in Europe, in many ways, albeit many of the issues that were bones of contention were strictly national, regional, and local. One of the more fanatical and bloody rebel priests, Padre Maldonado, was first defrocked and excommunicated, and decades later, when the political alignment in Mexcio shifted around a little, they reversed all that and canonized the guy. What happened was that they had an amnesty, wherein they were going to let everyone just lay down their arms and they would not persecute anyone no matter what they had done, so the Church ordered Maldonado to surrender, and he, instead, ambushed a government patrol and killed a lot of soldiers and police. So no one was surprised when they hunted him down and settle scores with him.
                     
                    The government did commit all sorts of atrocities and unfair acts. But so did guys like Saint Padre Maldonado, or whatever they call him now. And the problem is that they actually started it, and when they had a chance for amnesty, they turned it down in order to perpetuate a hopelessly lost and suicidal cause.
                     
                    Bryant
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 3:25 AM
                    Subject: Re: [1curanderismo] Re: a question

                    That is very interesting, I was only looking at the spiritual aspect, but the politics of religion are always working behind the scenes. Thanks for that, in a case of Jesuits, Opus Dei against the Republicans (communists)  YUK, what a choice, i would not like either!

                    E Bryant Holman <bryanth@presidiotex .com> wrote:

                    That is not exactly how I would describe the cristero movement. It was more about politics in Europe than anything else, really. It was an outgrowth of events in Spain, wherein the fascists, who were organized, in part, by reactionary elements in the Catholic Church (Jesuits and Opus Dei), were squaring off against the Republicans, as they called themselves, who were originally organized by the anarchist parties but later taken over by communists, in what would eventually become the Spanish Civil War.
                     
                    The cristero rebellion started as a result of the Mexican government sending troops in to try and arrest a group of assassins who had been murdering schoolteachers, as the reactionaries in that part of Mexico, led largely by members of the clergy, were opposed to universal education. They wanted peasants, and especially Indians, to remain illiterate. Things escalated when the cristeros started actually attacking the soldiers and actively waging war against the government. It had nothing to do with corruption or anything of the sort. The government were not the oppressors here. The people who were trying to bring back plantation days were the ones who generated the violence, and, unfortunately, church authorities got in the thick of it.
                     
                    The government overreacted, probably, I am sure, but everything was going pretty well, actually, before the cristeros decided to start assassinating all of those teachers. I know people who actually lived through all that, who witnessed massacres and such. It was pretty awful.
                     
                    Bryant
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:23 PM
                    Subject: Re: [1curanderismo] Re: a question

                    Cristo Rey= Christ the King  was a plea in part from the desparate people of Mexico for His power to help them rid them selves of the corrupt people in control of Mexico.  To place the country under the power of Christ to bring justice, mercy and freedom. The other more folk uses I am not sure of.

                    Bryant <bryanth@presidiotex .com> wrote:
                    The most notable thing that can be said about El Cristo Rey is that he
                    was the icon of the Cristero movement, which fought a very bloody
                    uprising against the Mexican government in the late 1920's. Their
                    battle cry was "Viva Cristo Rey!"

                    Bryant

                    --- In 1curanderismo@ yahoogroups. com, Antonio <benedicaria@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Does anyone have information on the spirits known as "El Cristo
                    Negro" and
                    > El Cristo Rey"? I came across some references to them but can't
                    seem to
                    > find anything on the net about them. Any info would be great..
                    > thanks to all...
                    >
                    > antonio
                    >



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