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1870:Presidency change and price protection?

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  • Alex Rhomberg
    If the current president dumps his shares, can the new buy them through price protection? - Alex
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 1, 1999
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      If the current president dumps his shares, can the new
      buy them through price protection?
      - Alex
    • Steve Thomas
      ... No. Steve
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 1, 1999
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        Alex Rhomberg wrote:

        > If the current president dumps his shares, can the new
        > buy them through price protection?

        No.

        Steve
      • Alex Rhomberg
        ... Wow, I m challenging Steve Thomas word on rules :-) Why? Is there a FAQ/Clarification? I didn t find anything in the 1870 rules. The rules say: When
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 1, 1999
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          Steve Thomas wrote:
          >
          > From: Steve Thomas <Steve.Thomas@...>
          >
          > Alex Rhomberg wrote:
          >
          > > If the current president dumps his shares, can the new
          > > buy them through price protection?
          >
          > No.

          Wow, I'm challenging Steve Thomas' word on rules :-)

          Why? Is there a FAQ/Clarification?
          I didn't find anything in the 1870 rules.
          The rules say:

          When shares ... are sold, the president may stop the fall in share price
          by purchasing them immediately

          It depends if the change of president happens before the actual sale
          (when announcing the sale) or after.
          If it happens before, the new president would be able to protect price.
          If it happens after the sale, this would imply that the president can't
          dump the company if somebody else is holding only 20%.

          - Alex
        • Mike Hutton
          I m not an 1870 player, but according to the games I do know (1825/30) I have to agree with Alex. The sale of the share which causes a change in presidency
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 1, 1999
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            I'm not an 1870 player, but according to the games I do know (1825/30) I
            have to agree with Alex. The sale of the share which causes a change in
            presidency involves the exchange of the president's certificate and it
            is at that point that the new president takes charge. Thus (according to
            my interpretation) the presidency changes hands during the sale of
            shares. Therefore while the sale of shares is happening there is a new
            president who may then buy the shares just sold to the bank pool. The
            whole lot is one logical transaction within the game. At least, that's
            what the wording implies.

            If you are going to say 'no' then either this should form part of an
            official FAQ (which it doesn't) or it is a house rule. I rather expect
            it's the latter. Not surprising, since it makes the dumping of a company
            on another player as unpleasant as it would be in 1830 or 1856 (which I
            believe many 1870 players play before starting on 1870).

            Either way, we don't know what Bill's intentions were on the subject,
            but it makes a huge impact on the game one way or another. Not having
            played 1870 I can't say whether the game would be 'better' or 'worse'
            for playing one way or the other. I rather suspect that 1870 is supposed
            to be kinder on players who have a company dumped on them, but this may
            not sit easily with those who have always played in the same way as
            Steve.

            Of course, I may be horribly wrong here and am quite prepared to be shot
            down in flames...

            Mike.
            > ----------
            > From: Alex Rhomberg[SMTP:rhomberg@...]
            > Sent: 01 October 1999 11:30
            > To: 18xx@onelist.com
            > Subject: Re: [18xx] 1870:Presidency change and price protection?
            >
            > From: Alex Rhomberg <rhomberg@...>
            >
            > Steve Thomas wrote:
            > >
            > > From: Steve Thomas <Steve.Thomas@...>
            > >
            > > Alex Rhomberg wrote:
            > >
            > > > If the current president dumps his shares, can the new
            > > > buy them through price protection?
            > >
            > > No.
            >
            > Wow, I'm challenging Steve Thomas' word on rules :-)
            >
            > Why? Is there a FAQ/Clarification?
            > I didn't find anything in the 1870 rules.
            > The rules say:
            >
            > When shares ... are sold, the president may stop the fall in share
            > price
            > by purchasing them immediately
            >
            > It depends if the change of president happens before the actual sale
            > (when announcing the sale) or after.
            > If it happens before, the new president would be able to protect
            > price.
            > If it happens after the sale, this would imply that the president
            > can't
            > dump the company if somebody else is holding only 20%.
            >
            > - Alex
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          • Steve Thomas
            ... That s OK - I am wrong occasionally. ... There is no FAQ/Clarification - I did make a start on gathering the information to write one, but other matters
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 1, 1999
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              Alex Rhomberg wrote:

              > Steve Thomas wrote:

              > > Alex Rhomberg wrote:
              > >
              > > > If the current president dumps his shares, can the new
              > > > buy them through price protection?
              > >
              > > No.
              >
              > Wow, I'm challenging Steve Thomas' word on rules :-)

              That's OK - I am wrong occasionally.

              > Why? Is there a FAQ/Clarification?
              > I didn't find anything in the 1870 rules.

              There is no FAQ/Clarification - I did make a start on
              gathering the information to write one, but other matters
              have intervened.

              Having seen the arguments presented in this forum, I will
              withdraw my earlier "No" and substitute "I don't know".
              I will check.

              Steve
            • Adam Romoth
              ... No. See page 17: Tranfer of presidency, last paragraph: ...the new president may not protect the shares that the old president sold. This sentence should
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 1, 1999
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                >
                > > If the current president dumps his shares, can the new
                > > buy them through price protection?
                >
                No.
                See page 17: Tranfer of presidency, last paragraph:
                "...the new president may not protect the shares that the old
                president sold."

                This sentence should also have been written at: "Share price
                protection"

                Adam
              • Bill Dixon
                ... Quote from Original rules set from way back . . . When shares of a company that you are the president of are sold, you may stop the fall in share price by
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 3, 1999
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                  Mike Hutton wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Mike Hutton <huttm@...>
                  >
                  > I'm not an 1870 player, but according to the games I do know (1825/30) I
                  > have to agree with Alex. The sale of the share which causes a change in
                  > presidency involves the exchange of the president's certificate and it
                  > is at that point that the new president takes charge. Thus (according to
                  > my interpretation) the presidency changes hands during the sale of
                  > shares. Therefore while the sale of shares is happening there is a new
                  > president who may then buy the shares just sold to the bank pool. The
                  > whole lot is one logical transaction within the game. At least, that's
                  > what the wording implies.

                  Quote from Original rules set from way back . . .

                  "When shares of a company that you are the president of are sold, you
                  may stop the fall in share price by purchasing them."

                  You are the president of Company A.
                  You sell shares in Company A.
                  You decline to price protect the shares of the company that you are
                  president of when you sold them, thus they go down in value.
                  As a side effect of this sale a New president is established.

                  The rules do not explicitly say so but the new president cannot price
                  protect the shares that were sold to make him the president.

                  I will update the web page rules today.


                  Bill Dixon
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