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Re: 1837 Questions (Vienna)

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  • Werner Baer
    ... ... There is a pink piece of paper titled Loks & Auswirkungen (trains and effects). In the lower half, there are some Besondere Hinweise
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 1, 1999
      >From: John David Galt <jdg@...>
      >
      >Steve Thomas writes:
      >
      >>> 4. Am I right in thinking that I can play tile #436 (brown Vienna)
      >>> in any orientation I like?
      >>
      >

      <snip>

      >Geometrically, all of these work. The only reason I can see to require
      >a) is an "oral tradition" that all three k.k. stations must combine.
      >And if that is a rule, it also ought to be written down.
      >
      >John David Galt
      >


      There is a pink piece of paper titled 'Loks & Auswirkungen'
      (trains and effects).
      In the lower half, there are some 'Besondere Hinweise' (special notes).

      The 9th point reads:
      'Die Strecke Wien-Wien ist nicht moeglich. Durch das braune Wien wird
      aus den drei k.k-Bahnhoefen einer.'
      (The route vienna-vienna is not legal. The brown vienna piece
      combines the three k.k. stations into one).

      Werner.
    • Joscha
      Subject: Re: [18xx] 1837 Questions (Vienna) ... any orientation I like? ... In the german rules, I have is written in VII.9. .... Beim braunen
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 1, 1999
        Subject: Re: [18xx] 1837 Questions (Vienna)
        >From: John David Galt <jdg@...>
        >Steve Thomas writes:
        >>> 4. Am I right in thinking that I can play tile #436 (brown Vienna) in
        any orientation I like?
        <snip>
        >Geometrically, all of these work. The only reason I can see to require
        >a) is an "oral tradition" that all three k.k. stations must combine.
        >And if that is a rule, it also ought to be written down.
        >John David Galt

        In the german rules, I have is written in VII.9.

        .... Beim braunen Wien-Pl�ttchen werden die drei k.k.-Marker durch einen
        einzigen ersetzt, der auf den Kreis zu liegen kommt, von dem drei Gleise
        wegf�hren. .....

        .... At the brown Viena tile the three privat k.k. station markers will be
        replaced by only one, which must be positioned on the point which connects
        the three pieces of track leading out of Viena
      • Steve Thomas
        ... That clause is in the translation I have. However, this does not in itself constrain the orientation of the Vienna tile, which might in principle be
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 1, 1999
          Joscha wrote:

          > In the german rules, I have is written in VII.9.
          >
          > .... Beim braunen Wien-Pl�ttchen werden die drei k.k.-Marker durch einen
          > einzigen ersetzt, der auf den Kreis zu liegen kommt, von dem drei Gleise
          > wegf�hren. .....
          >
          > .... At the brown Viena tile the three privat k.k. station markers will be
          > replaced by only one, which must be positioned on the point which connects
          > the three pieces of track leading out of Viena

          That clause is in the translation I have. However, this
          does not in itself constrain the orientation of the
          Vienna tile, which might in principle be placed in some
          non-standard orientation. Doing that shuffles any other
          tokens on the tile, but that isn't explicitly prohibited.

          I agree that it takes a rather eccentric notion of
          reasonableness to believe that the effects of putting
          Vienna in the "wrong" way are reasonable - but that
          doesn't stop people (mis)interpreting the rules by
          reading the letter of the rules and not the spirit.

          (I know that some people find detailed rules discussions
          tedious. I apologise to them for the protracted nature
          of this discussion. I for one rather enjoy it.)

          Steve
        • Michael.Bruenker
          Hi all! I have less time so I cannot say much to all your postings. But let me give you an example to the tile replacing rules: I think we all agree that the
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 1, 1999
            Hi all!

            I have less time so I cannot say much to all your postings.

            But let me give you an example to the tile replacing rules:

            I think we all agree that the Vienna tile has to be placed in this way that the
            only kk-marker can reach all exits that each former kk-marker could reach until
            the brown phase.

            The discussion refers to the rule that only indicates, that all existing tracks
            of the replaced tile have also to exist on the new tile.
            This rule is not sufficient. It should be expanded with the following sentence:
            "And (at least) all tracks that could be reached from a marker on the old tile
            have to be reached from the same marker on the new tile."

            (For 1837 it would be easier to indicate how the Vienna tile has to be placed
            because someone could say that the new kk-marker is not the same as the former
            kk-markers in Vienna.)

            This rule is necessary if you consider the follwing 1830 absurd example:

            The B&O has placed tile#59 on hex H18 with connections to NY and to the small
            city on hex I19. It has also laid a station marker on the southern station of
            hex H18.
            The NYC has placed a station marker on the northern station of tile#59 via NY.
            If tile#59 is replaced with tile#65 by the PRR so that hex I19 and NY are
            connected with a large curve (this would be possible if only existing tracks
            also have to exist on the new tile but it is not possible in common sense).
            Which station marker lays now on the large curve? How can the NYC get a station
            marker without a route to his home base if the B&O would lay the station marker
            on the large curve? etc.etc.etc.

            Michael
          • Dave Mitton
            I ll interject once more. I translated all of the cards, boards, and tables from 1837 into English the best I could in Sept 1996. The MS Doc file and a
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 1, 1999
              I'll interject once more.

              I translated all of the cards, boards, and tables from 1837 into English
              the best I could in Sept 1996. The MS Doc file and a Postscript output
              file are availible at my web site http://www.dave.mitton.com on the 18xx page,
              or directly at http://people.ne.mediaone.net/dmitton/1837tabs.doc and .ps

              I translated that bullet as:
              Running through Vienna is not possible, except for the k.k. Bahn, when it
              upgrades to the brown tile.

              If anyone finds any issues with my translations, I'd appreciate
              comments. They were machine assisted. And breaking down some of the game
              and RR words was interesting exercise in vocabulary discovery & teaching.

              Thanks.
              Dave.

              At 10:10 AM 7/1/99 +0200, Werner Baer wrote:
              >From: "Werner Baer" <werner.baer@...>
              >
              > >From: John David Galt <jdg@...>
              > >
              > >Steve Thomas writes:
              > >
              > >>> 4. Am I right in thinking that I can play tile #436 (brown Vienna)
              > >>> in any orientation I like?
              > >>
              > >
              >
              ><snip>
              >
              > >Geometrically, all of these work. The only reason I can see to require
              > >a) is an "oral tradition" that all three k.k. stations must combine.
              > >And if that is a rule, it also ought to be written down.
              > >
              > >John David Galt
              > >
              >
              >
              >There is a pink piece of paper titled 'Loks & Auswirkungen'
              >(trains and effects).
              >In the lower half, there are some 'Besondere Hinweise' (special notes).
              >
              >The 9th point reads:
              >'Die Strecke Wien-Wien ist nicht moeglich. Durch das braune Wien wird
              >aus den drei k.k-Bahnhoefen einer.'
              >(The route vienna-vienna is not legal. The brown vienna piece
              >combines the three k.k. stations into one).
              >
              >Werner.
              >
              >
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