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Re: [18xx] 18-Scan - game report and questions

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  • Joe Casadonte
    ... Good point. I guess we re not playing cut-throat enough for me to have thought of it that way.... ... Ah, missed that. Your original response, though,
    Message 1 of 10 , May 1 6:07 AM
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      On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, David G. D. Hecht wrote:

      > * The rules explicitly say that a +20 ferry token has to be sold for
      > K20. We thought it would be more fun to let the parties involved
      > barter.
      >
      > (DH) Perhaps. But simplest is best. This isn't designed to be a
      >> looting game: if I adopted your proposal, someone could spend his
      >> entire treasury buying a token and then dump the company.

      Good point. I guess we're not playing cut-throat enough for me to
      have thought of it that way....

      > * Also regarding the +20 token, it seemed a bit odd that you had to
      > go from Helsinki to Stockholm to get the bonus, and yet the ferry
      > itself goes from Turku to Stockholm.
      >
      > (DH) That is an error, commented upon and addresed in this forum,
      > and
      >> now corrected in the rulebook. An updated rulebook will probably be
      >> posted in the next week or so.

      Ah, missed that. Your original response, though, was:
      "Aaagghhh...thanx...you are of course correct, and the rules (and the
      note on the back of the card) are both wrong." It's still unclear,
      however, what exactly is supposed to be the correct reading. Is the
      map correct, and the ferry simply goes between Turku to Stockholm via
      L7? Or is Helsinki still involved somehow? Thanks!

      > * After the game, on the ride home, I got to thinking about the
      > appearance of the SJ. It gets an awful lot of stations all of a
      > sudden; too many to my mind. One thought was to give the SJ only
      > one of the 2 stations from each of the minor companies. So, the
      > director can pick one of the '1' stations, but not both. And one
      > of the '2' stations, but not both. Etc.
      >
      > (DH) Bear in mind it only gets those stations if they've been placed
      >> by the minors themselves. And the Trondheim station is pretty
      >> worthless. So--in practice--it gets (in addition to its home
      >> station in Stockholm) one station in Oslo, one in Malmo and one in
      >> Gothenburg. About the only thing that would change under your rule
      >> would be that it would have to decide whether to keep Malmo or
      >> Gothenburg.

      I guess I understand your point. It just seemed that access to
      Copenhagen was pretty limited at that point in the game. I'm not sure
      my "solution" would have eased that by much, though. And once
      Copenhagen is promoted to 584, it will open up a bit.

      > * Keeping in mind that we've only played once, I thought the #2 and
      > #3 minors were a touch over priced. Maybe drop them by K10 each,
      > or K10 and K20, respectively?
      >
      > (DH) One of the things I'm trying to do is to keep the pricing
      >> structure simple: hence, the prices of the Minors equals their
      >> capital. But your point is one of the reasons why the Minors pay
      >> K10 even with no train.

      Minor #1 is only 2 hexes away from its destination, and only requires
      a 2 train. Its cost is K260. Initial run is K40.

      Minor #2 is 4 hexes away from its destination, at least one of which
      is a K60 hex. They need either a 3 train (in which case they need to
      go through another K60 hex) or a 2+2 train. Its cost is K220.
      Initial run would be either K60 or K70.

      Minor #3 is 3 hexes away from its destination, and only requires a 2
      train. Its cost is K200, and its initial run would be K50.

      I guess the larger payouts could make up for the increased length of
      the route and/or costs. But the shorter route will payoff sooner, and
      consequently more often, equalizing it (at best).

      I guess I'll just have to play it again to find out. :)

      > (DH) A Minor's second token is a K40 token that can be placed
      > anywhere
      >> under the normal rules: placing it for free in a particular spot is
      >> a gratuity that comes with connecting to your destination. But
      >> there's nothing to keep you from putting it down elsewhere, or even
      >> not at all.

      When you say "in a particular spot", does that mean it can only place
      the free token (if it still has it available) in the destination city?

      > So, to get back to the question again, what is the design goal of
      > the game? To introduce new gamers to 18xx, or showcase a lot of
      > common 18xx sub-systems? It does the latter quite well, but I think
      > it may be too much to accomplish the former, easily.
      >
      > (DH) Well, the goal is "both". The assumption is that many of these
      >> subsystems are commonplace in other games, so by giving you a small
      >> taste of how they work, you will be better prepared when you
      >> encounter them elsewhere.

      I think as a true "Intro to 18xx" game, there's just too much going on
      for a casual gamer to get their head around. As a whole, there's
      nothing really hard about the game, but if someone were to buy this
      off of a shelf (hah!) and try to teach it to themselves, there's an
      awful lot to take in at once. Now, maybe the fact that this will
      never be on a store shelf, and indeed may never be anything other than
      a kit, means that someone already familiar with 18xx will almost
      always be involved in the teaching of it, and can help others along.

      >> Obviously, some of them may have to go: or--perhaps--be included as
      >> optional rules.

      It's not clear that anything could easily be split off as optional.
      It is, as you say in the designer's notes, a more forgiving game, and
      that's a good thing.

      >> But I honestly don't think that any of the rules that are in the
      >> game are that complex.

      It's just a quantity thing, I think. There's just so many little
      sub-systems to keep track of.

      The one "casual" 18xx player in our group remarked after the game
      something to the effect of: "It was just like all of the other 18xx
      I've played. They're all basically the same game, with a list of a
      hundred exceptions to the basic rules." Maybe a wide variety of 18xx
      games isn't good for the casual gamer?

      > (DH) Pleased that you're pleased--that's always the goal! :-)

      Please enough to print it out and start mounting it. My first kit!

      --
      Regards,

      joe
      Joe Casadonte
      jcasadonte@...

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    • Michael Br√ľnker
      Hi all, I playtested 18Kids a lot and added some money and some red (brown) tiles. These are optional and only for the use in a game with adults. I think that
      Message 2 of 10 , May 1 7:55 AM
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        Hi all,



        I playtested 18Kids a lot and added some money and some red (brown) tiles.
        These are optional and only for the use in a game with adults. I think that
        even adults will have fun in this short 45 minutes 18xx game.



        If someone is interested I will email him the files.



        Michael



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David G.D. Hecht
        ... From: Joe Casadonte Sent: May 1, 2005 9:07 AM To: 18xx@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [18xx] 18-Scan - game report and
        Message 3 of 10 , May 1 7:59 AM
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: Joe Casadonte <jcasadonte@...>
          Sent: May 1, 2005 9:07 AM
          To: 18xx@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [18xx] 18-Scan - game report and questions

          On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, David G. D. Hecht wrote:



          Is the
          map correct, and the ferry simply goes between Turku to Stockholm via
          L7? Or is Helsinki still involved somehow? Thanks!

          (DH) The map is correct, the ferry runs from Turku (Abo) to Stockholm.


          Minor #1 is only 2 hexes away from its destination, and only requires
          a 2 train. Its cost is K260. Initial run is K40.

          Minor #2 is 4 hexes away from its destination, at least one of which
          is a K60 hex. They need either a 3 train (in which case they need to
          go through another K60 hex) or a 2+2 train. Its cost is K220.
          Initial run would be either K60 or K70.

          Minor #3 is 3 hexes away from its destination, and only requires a 2
          train. Its cost is K200, and its initial run would be K50.

          I guess the larger payouts could make up for the increased length of
          the route and/or costs. But the shorter route will payoff sooner, and
          consequently more often, equalizing it (at best).

          I guess I'll just have to play it again to find out. :)

          (DH) Right now, the minors are priced to be able to buy (more or less) a 2 train, a 1+1 train, and a token in the first two op rounds, in addition to terrain (remember that #1 needs to spend K40 just to lay its home station):

          #1 needs ( K40 + K100 + K80 + K40 = ) K260.
          #2 needs the same, less the K40 for initial terrain, plus K60 for the mountain. This is K280 and it is certain to earn K40 from its second OR, or K20 for the company. K220 + K40 ) = K240.
          #3 only needs K220, but it might not have a run in OR-2. Plus I wanted a slightly larger gap from the SJS/ZRC at K180.

          All these figures are subject to readjustment: the main point is to make the returns more or less proportional to the costs.

          > (DH) A Minor's second token is a K40 token that can be placed
          > anywhere
          >> under the normal rules: placing it for free in a particular spot is
          >> a gratuity that comes with connecting to your destination. But
          >> there's nothing to keep you from putting it down elsewhere, or even
          >> not at all.

          When you say "in a particular spot", does that mean it can only place
          the free token (if it still has it available) in the destination city?

          (DH) Yes.

          > So, to get back to the question again, what is the design goal of
          > the game? To introduce new gamers to 18xx, or showcase a lot of
          > common 18xx sub-systems? It does the latter quite well, but I think
          > it may be too much to accomplish the former, easily.
          >
          > (DH) Well, the goal is "both". The assumption is that many of these
          >> subsystems are commonplace in other games, so by giving you a small
          >> taste of how they work, you will be better prepared when you
          >> encounter them elsewhere.

          I think as a true "Intro to 18xx" game, there's just too much going on
          for a casual gamer to get their head around. As a whole, there's
          nothing really hard about the game, but if someone were to buy this
          off of a shelf (hah!) and try to teach it to themselves, there's an
          awful lot to take in at once. Now, maybe the fact that this will
          never be on a store shelf, and indeed may never be anything other than
          a kit, means that someone already familiar with 18xx will almost
          always be involved in the teaching of it, and can help others along.

          (DH) OK, fair enough: I guess I meant, "a game that an experienced player can use to teach newcomers" rather than a self-teaching game from a cold start. I might make soemthing like that someday, but this ain't it! :-)

          >> Obviously, some of them may have to go: or--perhaps--be included as
          >> optional rules.

          It's not clear that anything could easily be split off as optional.
          It is, as you say in the designer's notes, a more forgiving game, and
          that's a good thing.

          >> But I honestly don't think that any of the rules that are in the
          >> game are that complex.

          It's just a quantity thing, I think. There's just so many little
          sub-systems to keep track of.

          (DH) Understood, and agreed.
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