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questation about stays

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  • tami crandall
    Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th century? I can t believe making stays was so hard that women couldn t  sew them. [Non-text
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 3, 2013
      Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women couldn't  sew them.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Colleen Humphreys
      Sure, women could *sew* them! What requires strength is preparing the whale bone, and then forcing the cut bones into the channels. Experimental archeology.
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 3, 2013
        Sure, women could *sew* them! What requires strength is preparing the whale bone, and then forcing the cut bones into the channels.

        Experimental archeology. Mark Hutter talks about how it works. Now, of course, women *could* have done these things. Women could have been tailors, but typically weren't.

        There are also extant stays that have been suggested were home made. So women *could* make them. It is just, as a rule, they didnt.

        Colleen, Mother of 4, 18th C Reenactor who never met a textile craft she didn't want to learn.
        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:43 PM, tami crandall <tamicrandall@...> wrote:

        > Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women couldn't sew them.
      • Miss Hallie
        Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft corsets. Here in the colonies
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
          Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft corsets. Here in the colonies men were the ones advertising for staymaking. Because we were not under the guild system, it would be more likely that a women could set up as a staymaker here than in England. As of right now, I have not yet come across a female staymaker, but would not rule it out.

          Hallie

          Margaret Hambleton, Rebecca Hambleton, Margaret Hambleton
          "The Prisoners worked at my Mothers at stiching of Stays" Old Bailey
          Reference Number: t17351015-5

          Hallie
          --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, tami crandall <tamicrandall@...> wrote:
          >
          > Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women couldn't  sew them.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • livesinclimax
          FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women s clothing at W burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the things that has stuck in
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
            FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women's clothing at W'burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the things that has stuck in my mind was that the lecturer thought that one reason for relatively few extant stays was that the non-upper classes might have been wearing ones made of fairly think leather, laced together, and that they would have just crumbled to dust.
            any thoughts from the fashion ladies on this one?

            Perry

            --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "Miss Hallie" <halliemiss2@...> wrote:

            > Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft corsets. Here in the colonies men were the ones advertising for staymaking. Because we were not under the guild system, it would be more likely that a women could set up as a staymaker here than in England. As of right now, I have not yet come across a female staymaker, but would not rule it out.
            >
            > Hallie
            >
            > Margaret Hambleton, Rebecca Hambleton, Margaret Hambleton
            > "The Prisoners worked at my Mothers at stiching of Stays" Old Bailey
            > Reference Number: t17351015-5
            >
            > Hallie
            > --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, tami crandall <tamicrandall@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women couldn't  sew them.
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • Carol Kocian
            There was an article in one of the costume journals about non- fashionable stays, stays without straps, from more than 20 years ago. There are plain, strapless
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
              There was an article in one of the costume journals about non-
              fashionable stays, stays without straps, from more than 20 years ago.
              There are plain, strapless stays in museum collections. I'm not sure
              why someone would say there are relatively few extant stays — maybe
              it was so long ago that people didn't know how many were out there!
              "Relatively" is relative: there is less extant clothing available
              from earlier eras, and fewer items from war years.

              The thing about leather is that there are plenty of extant shoes, so
              it does not all crumble to dust. Other evidence could be found in
              advertisements and inventories.

              In London they did have poor relief and clothing available for the
              destitute. I heard that leather stays may have been used in that
              capacity, I just never saw the evidence behind it. But I don't agree
              that they would be common for everyone from the middle class on down.

              As far as men vs. women staymakers, the 18thC had more division of
              the sexes in occupations than we are used to these days. There are
              other instances of women working in traditionally male occupations.
              Theoretically women did not have the strength to split the baleen,
              but I really don't know if that was the reason or if it was just a
              holdover from occupational traditions.

              -Carol


              On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:01 AM, livesinclimax wrote:

              > FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women's clothing at
              > W'burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the
              > things that has stuck in my mind was that the lecturer thought that
              > one reason for relatively few extant stays was that the non-upper
              > classes might have been wearing ones made of fairly think leather,
              > laced together, and that they would have just crumbled to dust.
              > any thoughts from the fashion ladies on this one?
              >
              > Perry
              >
              > --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "Miss Hallie" <halliemiss2@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire
              >> trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft
              >> corsets. Here in the colonies men were the ones advertising for
              >> staymaking. Because we were not under the guild system, it would
              >> be more likely that a women could set up as a staymaker here than
              >> in England. As of right now, I have not yet come across a female
              >> staymaker, but would not rule it out.
              >>
              >> Hallie
              >>
              >> Margaret Hambleton, Rebecca Hambleton, Margaret Hambleton
              >> "The Prisoners worked at my Mothers at stiching of Stays" Old Bailey
              >> Reference Number: t17351015-5
              >>
              >> Hallie
              >> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, tami crandall <tamicrandall@> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th
              >>> century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women
              >>> couldn't sew them.
              >>>
              >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • tami crandall
              Thank you so much for your takes on this question. It came up yesterday at my event and I really offended a fellow re-enactor with my opinion that a woman
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                Thank you so much for your takes on this question. It came up yesterday at my event and I really offended a fellow re-enactor with my opinion that a woman could sew stays because I have done it. She doesn't sew, I also don't think she knows I made her stays! (The ones she choose not to wear because it is too hot) The leather binding was the only hard part but of course I wasn't splitting baleen or shoving it in after the fact, I sewed channels next to the boning as I went.


                ________________________________
                From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@...>
                To: 18cLife@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 8:54 AM
                Subject: Re: [18cLife] Re: question about stays


                There was an article in one of the costume journals about non-
                fashionable stays, stays without straps, from more than 20 years ago. 
                There are plain, strapless stays in museum collections. I'm not sure 
                why someone would say there are relatively few extant stays — maybe 
                it was so long ago that people didn't know how many were out there! 
                "Relatively" is relative: there is less extant clothing available 
                from earlier eras, and fewer items from war years.

                The thing about leather is that there are plenty of extant shoes, so 
                it does not all crumble to dust. Other evidence could be found in 
                advertisements and inventories.

                In London they did have poor relief and clothing available for the 
                destitute. I heard that leather stays may have been used in that 
                capacity, I just never saw the evidence behind it. But I don't agree 
                that they would be common for everyone from the middle class on down.

                As far as men vs. women staymakers, the 18thC had more division of 
                the sexes in occupations than we are used to these days. There are 
                other instances of women working in traditionally male occupations. 
                Theoretically women did not have the strength to split the baleen, 
                but I really don't know if that was the reason or if it was just a 
                holdover from occupational traditions.

                -Carol


                On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:01 AM, livesinclimax wrote:

                > FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women's clothing at 
                > W'burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the 
                > things that has stuck in my mind was that the lecturer thought that 
                > one reason for relatively few extant stays was that the non-upper 
                > classes might have been wearing ones made of fairly think leather, 
                > laced together, and that they would have just crumbled to dust.
                > any thoughts from the fashion ladies on this one?
                >
                > Perry
                >
                > --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "Miss Hallie" <halliemiss2@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire 
                >> trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft 
                >> corsets.  Here in the colonies men were the ones advertising for 
                >> staymaking. Because we were not under the guild system, it would 
                >> be more likely that a women could set up as a staymaker here than 
                >> in England.  As of right now, I have not yet come across a female 
                >> staymaker, but would not rule it out.
                >>
                >> Hallie
                >>
                >> Margaret Hambleton, Rebecca Hambleton, Margaret Hambleton
                >> "The Prisoners worked at my Mothers at stiching of Stays"  Old Bailey
                >> Reference Number: t17351015-5
                >>
                >> Hallie
                >> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, tami crandall <tamicrandall@> wrote:
                >>>
                >>> Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th 
                >>> century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women 
                >>> couldn't  sew them.
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lauren Walker
                Another two cents about leather stays: Last time I was in Williamsburg, which was, sigh, too long ago -- for the Battle of Yorktown six or seven years ago -- I
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                  Another two cents about leather stays: Last time I was in Williamsburg, which was, sigh, too long ago -- for the Battle of Yorktown six or seven years ago -- I asked the guys in the leather shop about the leather stays they had hanging from the ceiling beams. Their take at that time was that you'd only wear leather stays if you were absolutely destitute, the equivalent of a street bum; the guy (I'm sorry I've forgotten his name, it's in my notes but they're in storage) made it sound like a woman would do pretty much anything to get better stays than that.

                  The fact that there were leather stays for poor women even though they were that terrible also suggests women would also do pretty much anything to have stays of some kind, no matter what.
                  Lauren

                  Lauren M. Walker
                  lauren.walker@...



                  On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Carol Kocian wrote:

                  > There was an article in one of the costume journals about non-
                  > fashionable stays, stays without straps, from more than 20 years ago.
                  > There are plain, strapless stays in museum collections. I'm not sure
                  > why someone would say there are relatively few extant stays — maybe
                  > it was so long ago that people didn't know how many were out there!
                  > "Relatively" is relative: there is less extant clothing available
                  > from earlier eras, and fewer items from war years.
                  >
                  > The thing about leather is that there are plenty of extant shoes, so
                  > it does not all crumble to dust. Other evidence could be found in
                  > advertisements and inventories.
                  >
                  > In London they did have poor relief and clothing available for the
                  > destitute. I heard that leather stays may have been used in that
                  > capacity, I just never saw the evidence behind it. But I don't agree
                  > that they would be common for everyone from the middle class on down.
                  >
                  > As far as men vs. women staymakers, the 18thC had more division of
                  > the sexes in occupations than we are used to these days. There are
                  > other instances of women working in traditionally male occupations.
                  > Theoretically women did not have the strength to split the baleen,
                  > but I really don't know if that was the reason or if it was just a
                  > holdover from occupational traditions.
                  >
                  > -Carol
                  >
                  >
                  > On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:01 AM, livesinclimax wrote:
                  >
                  >> FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women's clothing at
                  >> W'burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the
                  >> things that has stuck in my mind was that the lecturer thought that
                  >> one reason for relatively few extant stays was that the non-upper
                  >> classes might have been wearing ones made of fairly think leather,
                  >> laced together, and that they would have just crumbled to dust.
                  >> any thoughts from the fashion ladies on this one?
                  >>
                  >> Perry
                  >>
                  >> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "Miss Hallie" <halliemiss2@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire
                  >>> trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft
                  >>> corsets. Here in the colonies men were the ones advertising for
                  >>> staymaking. Because we were not under the guild system, it would
                  >>> be more likely that a women could set up as a staymaker here than
                  >>> in England. As of right now, I have not yet come across a female
                  >>> staymaker, but would not rule it out.
                  >>>
                  >>> Hallie
                  >>>
                  >>> Margaret Hambleton, Rebecca Hambleton, Margaret Hambleton
                  >>> "The Prisoners worked at my Mothers at stiching of Stays" Old Bailey
                  >>> Reference Number: t17351015-5
                  >>>
                  >>> Hallie
                  >>> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, tami crandall <tamicrandall@> wrote:
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th
                  >>>> century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women
                  >>>> couldn't sew them.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Will Tatum
                  That guy was Jay Howlett, Journeyman Saddler. He now works in the powder magazine. Yr Svt, Will Tatum ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                    That guy was Jay Howlett, Journeyman Saddler. He now works in the powder
                    magazine.


                    Yr Svt,
                    Will Tatum

                    On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@...>wrote:

                    > Another two cents about leather stays: Last time I was in Williamsburg,
                    > which was, sigh, too long ago -- for the Battle of Yorktown six or seven
                    > years ago -- I asked the guys in the leather shop about the leather stays
                    > they had hanging from the ceiling beams. Their take at that time was that
                    > you'd only wear leather stays if you were absolutely destitute, the
                    > equivalent of a street bum; the guy (I'm sorry I've forgotten his name,
                    > it's in my notes but they're in storage) made it sound like a woman would
                    > do pretty much anything to get better stays than that.
                    >
                    > The fact that there were leather stays for poor women even though they
                    > were that terrible also suggests women would also do pretty much anything
                    > to have stays of some kind, no matter what.
                    > Lauren
                    >
                    > Lauren M. Walker
                    > lauren.walker@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Carol Kocian wrote:
                    >
                    > > There was an article in one of the costume journals about non-
                    > > fashionable stays, stays without straps, from more than 20 years ago.
                    > > There are plain, strapless stays in museum collections. I'm not sure
                    > > why someone would say there are relatively few extant stays � maybe
                    > > it was so long ago that people didn't know how many were out there!
                    > > "Relatively" is relative: there is less extant clothing available
                    > > from earlier eras, and fewer items from war years.
                    > >
                    > > The thing about leather is that there are plenty of extant shoes, so
                    > > it does not all crumble to dust. Other evidence could be found in
                    > > advertisements and inventories.
                    > >
                    > > In London they did have poor relief and clothing available for the
                    > > destitute. I heard that leather stays may have been used in that
                    > > capacity, I just never saw the evidence behind it. But I don't agree
                    > > that they would be common for everyone from the middle class on down.
                    > >
                    > > As far as men vs. women staymakers, the 18thC had more division of
                    > > the sexes in occupations than we are used to these days. There are
                    > > other instances of women working in traditionally male occupations.
                    > > Theoretically women did not have the strength to split the baleen,
                    > > but I really don't know if that was the reason or if it was just a
                    > > holdover from occupational traditions.
                    > >
                    > > -Carol
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:01 AM, livesinclimax wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women's clothing at
                    > >> W'burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the
                    > >> things that has stuck in my mind was that the lecturer thought that
                    > >> one reason for relatively few extant stays was that the non-upper
                    > >> classes might have been wearing ones made of fairly think leather,
                    > >> laced together, and that they would have just crumbled to dust.
                    > >> any thoughts from the fashion ladies on this one?
                    > >>
                    > >> Perry
                    > >>
                    > >> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "Miss Hallie" <halliemiss2@...> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>> Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire
                    > >>> trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft
                    > >>> corsets. Here in the colonies men were the ones advertising for
                    > >>> staymaking. Because we were not under the guild system, it would
                    > >>> be more likely that a women could set up as a staymaker here than
                    > >>> in England. As of right now, I have not yet come across a female
                    > >>> staymaker, but would not rule it out.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Hallie
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Margaret Hambleton, Rebecca Hambleton, Margaret Hambleton
                    > >>> "The Prisoners worked at my Mothers at stiching of Stays" Old Bailey
                    > >>> Reference Number: t17351015-5
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Hallie
                    > >>> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, tami crandall <tamicrandall@> wrote:
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th
                    > >>>> century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women
                    > >>>> couldn't sew them.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------
                    > >>
                    > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lauren Walker
                    Sounds right, Will, but how the heck did you know who I talked to? Lauren M. Walker lauren.walker@comcast.net
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                      Sounds right, Will, but how the heck did you know who I talked to?
                      Lauren M. Walker
                      lauren.walker@...



                      On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Will Tatum wrote:

                      > That guy was Jay Howlett, Journeyman Saddler. He now works in the powder
                      > magazine.
                      >
                      >
                      > Yr Svt,
                      > Will Tatum
                      >
                      > On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@...>wrote:
                      >
                      >> Another two cents about leather stays: Last time I was in Williamsburg,
                      >> which was, sigh, too long ago -- for the Battle of Yorktown six or seven
                      >> years ago -- I asked the guys in the leather shop about the leather stays
                      >> they had hanging from the ceiling beams. Their take at that time was that
                      >> you'd only wear leather stays if you were absolutely destitute, the
                      >> equivalent of a street bum; the guy (I'm sorry I've forgotten his name,
                      >> it's in my notes but they're in storage) made it sound like a woman would
                      >> do pretty much anything to get better stays than that.
                      >>
                      >> The fact that there were leather stays for poor women even though they
                      >> were that terrible also suggests women would also do pretty much anything
                      >> to have stays of some kind, no matter what.
                      >> Lauren
                      >>
                      >> Lauren M. Walker
                      >> lauren.walker@...
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Carol Kocian wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> There was an article in one of the costume journals about non-
                      >>> fashionable stays, stays without straps, from more than 20 years ago.
                      >>> There are plain, strapless stays in museum collections. I'm not sure
                      >>> why someone would say there are relatively few extant stays ˜ maybe
                      >>> it was so long ago that people didn't know how many were out there!
                      >>> "Relatively" is relative: there is less extant clothing available
                      >>> from earlier eras, and fewer items from war years.
                      >>>
                      >>> The thing about leather is that there are plenty of extant shoes, so
                      >>> it does not all crumble to dust. Other evidence could be found in
                      >>> advertisements and inventories.
                      >>>
                      >>> In London they did have poor relief and clothing available for the
                      >>> destitute. I heard that leather stays may have been used in that
                      >>> capacity, I just never saw the evidence behind it. But I don't agree
                      >>> that they would be common for everyone from the middle class on down.
                      >>>
                      >>> As far as men vs. women staymakers, the 18thC had more division of
                      >>> the sexes in occupations than we are used to these days. There are
                      >>> other instances of women working in traditionally male occupations.
                      >>> Theoretically women did not have the strength to split the baleen,
                      >>> but I really don't know if that was the reason or if it was just a
                      >>> holdover from occupational traditions.
                      >>>
                      >>> -Carol
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:01 AM, livesinclimax wrote:
                      >>>
                      >>>> FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women's clothing at
                      >>>> W'burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the
                      >>>> things that has stuck in my mind was that the lecturer thought that
                      >>>> one reason for relatively few extant stays was that the non-upper
                      >>>> classes might have been wearing ones made of fairly think leather,
                      >>>> laced together, and that they would have just crumbled to dust.
                      >>>> any thoughts from the fashion ladies on this one?
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Perry
                      >>>>
                      >>>> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "Miss Hallie" <halliemiss2@...> wrote:
                      >>>>
                      >>>>> Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire
                      >>>>> trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft
                      >>>>> corsets. Here in the colonies men were the ones advertising for
                      >>>>> staymaking. Because we were not under the guild system, it would
                      >>>>> be more likely that a women could set up as a staymaker here than
                      >>>>> in England. As of right now, I have not yet come across a female
                      >>>>> staymaker, but would not rule it out.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> Hallie
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> Margaret Hambleton, Rebecca Hambleton, Margaret Hambleton
                      >>>>> "The Prisoners worked at my Mothers at stiching of Stays" Old Bailey
                      >>>>> Reference Number: t17351015-5
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> Hallie
                      >>>>> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, tami crandall <tamicrandall@> wrote:
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th
                      >>>>>> century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women
                      >>>>>> couldn't sew them.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Will Tatum
                      Because Jay Howlett has been my master and mentor from when I first started volunteering at the CWF Saddle Shop eleven years ago. I watched him make those
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 5, 2013
                        Because Jay Howlett has been my master and mentor from when I first started
                        volunteering at the CWF Saddle Shop eleven years ago. I watched him make
                        those leather stays and listened to him explain them to untold numbers of
                        visitors. A vast majority of the useful things I know come from Jay.

                        Yr Svt,
                        Will Tatum

                        On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 4:59 AM, Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@...>wrote:

                        > Sounds right, Will, but how the heck did you know who I talked to?
                        > Lauren M. Walker
                        > lauren.walker@...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Will Tatum wrote:
                        >
                        > > That guy was Jay Howlett, Journeyman Saddler. He now works in the powder
                        > > magazine.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yr Svt,
                        > > Will Tatum
                        > >
                        > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@...
                        > >wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> Another two cents about leather stays: Last time I was in Williamsburg,
                        > >> which was, sigh, too long ago -- for the Battle of Yorktown six or seven
                        > >> years ago -- I asked the guys in the leather shop about the leather
                        > stays
                        > >> they had hanging from the ceiling beams. Their take at that time was
                        > that
                        > >> you'd only wear leather stays if you were absolutely destitute, the
                        > >> equivalent of a street bum; the guy (I'm sorry I've forgotten his name,
                        > >> it's in my notes but they're in storage) made it sound like a woman
                        > would
                        > >> do pretty much anything to get better stays than that.
                        > >>
                        > >> The fact that there were leather stays for poor women even though they
                        > >> were that terrible also suggests women would also do pretty much
                        > anything
                        > >> to have stays of some kind, no matter what.
                        > >> Lauren
                        > >>
                        > >> Lauren M. Walker
                        > >> lauren.walker@...
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Carol Kocian wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>> There was an article in one of the costume journals about non-
                        > >>> fashionable stays, stays without straps, from more than 20 years ago.
                        > >>> There are plain, strapless stays in museum collections. I'm not sure
                        > >>> why someone would say there are relatively few extant stays � maybe
                        > >>> it was so long ago that people didn't know how many were out there!
                        > >>> "Relatively" is relative: there is less extant clothing available
                        > >>> from earlier eras, and fewer items from war years.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> The thing about leather is that there are plenty of extant shoes, so
                        > >>> it does not all crumble to dust. Other evidence could be found in
                        > >>> advertisements and inventories.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> In London they did have poor relief and clothing available for the
                        > >>> destitute. I heard that leather stays may have been used in that
                        > >>> capacity, I just never saw the evidence behind it. But I don't agree
                        > >>> that they would be common for everyone from the middle class on down.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> As far as men vs. women staymakers, the 18thC had more division of
                        > >>> the sexes in occupations than we are used to these days. There are
                        > >>> other instances of women working in traditionally male occupations.
                        > >>> Theoretically women did not have the strength to split the baleen,
                        > >>> but I really don't know if that was the reason or if it was just a
                        > >>> holdover from occupational traditions.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> -Carol
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>> On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:01 AM, livesinclimax wrote:
                        > >>>
                        > >>>> FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women's clothing at
                        > >>>> W'burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the
                        > >>>> things that has stuck in my mind was that the lecturer thought that
                        > >>>> one reason for relatively few extant stays was that the non-upper
                        > >>>> classes might have been wearing ones made of fairly think leather,
                        > >>>> laced together, and that they would have just crumbled to dust.
                        > >>>> any thoughts from the fashion ladies on this one?
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> Perry
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "Miss Hallie" <halliemiss2@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>> Tami, women often sewed the channels, they took over the entire
                        > >>>>> trade later in the 18th century when stays changed over to soft
                        > >>>>> corsets. Here in the colonies men were the ones advertising for
                        > >>>>> staymaking. Because we were not under the guild system, it would
                        > >>>>> be more likely that a women could set up as a staymaker here than
                        > >>>>> in England. As of right now, I have not yet come across a female
                        > >>>>> staymaker, but would not rule it out.
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> Hallie
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> Margaret Hambleton, Rebecca Hambleton, Margaret Hambleton
                        > >>>>> "The Prisoners worked at my Mothers at stiching of Stays" Old Bailey
                        > >>>>> Reference Number: t17351015-5
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> Hallie
                        > >>>>> --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, tami crandall <tamicrandall@> wrote:
                        > >>>>>>
                        > >>>>>> Do you think it is true that only men made stays in the 18th
                        > >>>>>> century? I can't believe making stays was so hard that women
                        > >>>>>> couldn't sew them.
                        > >>>>>>
                        > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> ------------------------------------
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>> ------------------------------------
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> ------------------------------------
                        > >>
                        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Soo
                        Can you imagine how hot leather stays would be?! Especially in the south? Sue Too
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 5, 2013
                          Can you imagine how hot leather stays would be?! Especially in the south?

                          Sue Too

                          --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "livesinclimax" <livesinclimax@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > FWIW about 20 years ago I went to a lecture on women's clothing at W'burg ( could it have been Linda Baumgartner??) anyway, one of the things that has stuck in my mind was that the lecturer thought that one reason for relatively few extant stays was that the non-upper classes might have been wearing ones made of fairly think leather, laced together, and that they would have just crumbled to dust.
                          > any thoughts from the fashion ladies on this one?
                          >
                          > Perry
                          >
                        • Cheryl C.
                          I have absolutely NO desire to try wearing leather stays, in any kind of weather - how my legs feel when I pull off my riding boots is hot enough for me! That
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 5, 2013
                            I have absolutely NO desire to try wearing leather stays, in
                            any kind of weather - how my legs feel when I pull off my
                            riding boots is hot enough for me! That said, I know a woman
                            in the Carolinas who cheerfully wears leather stays. When
                            I asked her about comfort, she replied that heat has not been
                            an issue, and she loves them. She remarked that with wearing,
                            they molded to the shape of her body. She is of average build,
                            not overweight, FWIW. Maybe she wears really thick and absorbent
                            linen shifts??
                            Perhaps a well-worn leather set might still be better than a
                            badly fitted set of boned stays.......

                            Cheryl C.
                          • Sue Little
                            My daughter wears leather stays, as she portrays a single woman who gets by on her spinning. They are hotter and sweatier than the other pair. Yes she is
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 8, 2013
                              My daughter wears leather stays, as she portrays a single woman who gets by
                              on her spinning. They are hotter and sweatier than the other pair. Yes
                              she is replacing them, but she has been a busy grad student and working
                              too. No time for sewing stays.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • livesinclimax
                              does any one have a pattern for leather stays? or could you just use a regular one - I m assuming lacing all the pieces together? I need a new set, portray a
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                does any one have a pattern for leather stays? or could you just use a regular one - I'm assuming lacing all the pieces together? I need a new set, portray a very poor woman and HATE sewing!

                                Perry


                                --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, Sue Little <daisygoatsue@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > My daughter wears leather stays, as she portrays a single woman who gets by
                                > on her spinning. They are hotter and sweatier than the other pair. Yes
                                > she is replacing them, but she has been a busy grad student and working
                                > too. No time for sewing stays.
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Heather Spurlock
                                Perry I used the Mill Farms 18th Century Jumps pattern.   Heather ________________________________ From: livesinclimax To:
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                  Perry

                                  I used the Mill Farms 18th Century Jumps pattern.  

                                  Heather




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: livesinclimax <livesinclimax@...>
                                  To: 18cLife@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 7:21 AM
                                  Subject: [18cLife] Re: questation about stays



                                   

                                  does any one have a pattern for leather stays? or could you just use a regular one - I'm assuming lacing all the pieces together? I need a new set, portray a very poor woman and HATE sewing!

                                  Perry


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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Sue Felshin
                                  ... IIRC, the leather stays I ve seen are just two pieces, a right side and a left side. You score the leather to make channels in imitation of boning and
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                    At 11:21 AM +0000 7/9/13, livesinclimax wrote:
                                    >does any one have a pattern for leather stays? or could you just
                                    >use a regular one - I'm assuming lacing all the pieces together? I
                                    >need a new set, portray a very poor woman and HATE sewing!

                                    IIRC, the leather stays I've seen are just two pieces, a right side
                                    and a left side. You score the leather to make "channels" in
                                    imitation of boning and you punch lacing holes along the front and
                                    back openings. My recollection is that the leather was quite thick
                                    and stiff; if not for the scoring, it wouldn't bend well around one's
                                    body. So look for a pattern that consists of just two pieces.

                                    Or try making your own pattern by making mockups from corrugated
                                    cardboard, as people sometimes do for regular stays. (If you don't
                                    know how to do this, say so, and I'll dredge up an old post about it
                                    -- I'm sure I have one in my email archives somewhere or other.)

                                    Your affectionate servant,
                                    Sue Felshin
                                    sfelshin@...
                                  • denspear
                                    Hey, I know I posted this on the now defunct women s forum, but it may still be of interest here. I work at Fort Frederica National Monument on St. Simons
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                      Hey,

                                      I know I posted this on the now defunct women's forum, but it may still be of interest here.

                                      I work at Fort Frederica National Monument on St. Simons Island, GA. This was the second settlement Oglethorpe established after Savannah (1736). While it is a myth that Georgia was a penal colony for deptors (no recorded deptor or prisoner has been found in research thus far) it was a place for the "worthy poor" of London to come for a second start. Frederica failed because it was settled with londoners plopped down on a sandy barrier island and told that they were now farmers......right.

                                      Anyway as you imagine there were few success stories, and most people depended on the Trustees (the guys who started the colony) for their basic needs most of the time. In my research in the Colonial Records of Georgia I have documented a list of supplies sent to Georgia. In the section of clothes I have found for both women and girls allotments of "A Pair of Leather-Bodice, and stumacher".

                                      Considering that this was a charity venture, there shouldn't be much surprise that is similiar to what was used in England's workhouses.

                                      One (of the many surprises) I have found while working here, is that Georgia was possibly the only colony to have a direct shipment of ha'pennys. From what I can tell England only minted copper coins twice during the 18th century (I believe once in 1732). I have a request of the Trustees for such a shipment to be sent to Georgia. While I have been surprised at how many ha'pennys found here archeologically, I had a real puzzle when I discovered what turned out to be two swedish coins. One cast during the two year reign of a queen (I think 1727?? can't remember). The other surprise coin-wise was that there was only one spanish coin ever found. Even though it was technically illegal to trade between England and Spain at the time, Spanish money was always good because it was gold and silver.

                                      Ah don't get me started I could do my own "mysteries at the Museum" program with what I have in the curatorial building here.

                                      Frau Spear
                                    • livesinclimax
                                      Thanks.. that s just about what I pictured - and I have done real ones, and have friends who understand the concept and can help with the making of the
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                        Thanks.. that's just about what I pictured - and I have done "real" ones, and have friends who understand the concept and can help with the making of the pattern, and getting the appropriate leather shouldn't be much of a prob.. but thanks a lot for the scoring info!

                                        It's not going to happen right away, but ... I'll let you all know how it turns out!

                                        Perry

                                        --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, Sue Felshin <sfelshin@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > At 11:21 AM +0000 7/9/13, livesinclimax wrote:
                                        > >does any one have a pattern for leather stays? or could you just
                                        > >use a regular one - I'm assuming lacing all the pieces together? I
                                        > >need a new set, portray a very poor woman and HATE sewing!
                                        >
                                        > IIRC, the leather stays I've seen are just two pieces, a right side
                                        > and a left side. You score the leather to make "channels" in
                                        > imitation of boning and you punch lacing holes along the front and
                                        > back openings. My recollection is that the leather was quite thick
                                        > and stiff; if not for the scoring, it wouldn't bend well around one's
                                        > body. So look for a pattern that consists of just two pieces.
                                        >
                                        > Or try making your own pattern by making mockups from corrugated
                                        > cardboard, as people sometimes do for regular stays. (If you don't
                                        > know how to do this, say so, and I'll dredge up an old post about it
                                        > -- I'm sure I have one in my email archives somewhere or other.)
                                        >
                                        > Your affectionate servant,
                                        > Sue Felshin
                                        > sfelshin@...
                                        >
                                      • Sharon Ann Burnston
                                        ... Dear Perry You need sole leather, 8 oz thick and compressed. I have attempted leather stays in thinner leather and it doesn t work well at all, the leather
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                          >>
                                          >> At 11:21 AM +0000 7/9/13, livesinclimax wrote:
                                          >> >does any one have a pattern for leather stays? or could you just
                                          >> >use a regular one - I'm assuming lacing all the pieces together? I
                                          >> >need a new set, portray a very poor woman and HATE sewing!


                                          Dear Perry
                                          You need sole leather, 8 oz thick and compressed. I have attempted leather stays in thinner leather and it doesn't work well at all, the leather buckles.
                                          With leather 8 oz thick, it needs to be scored evenly and to an even depth, for the stays to bend evenly around your body.
                                          Unless you know a skilled leatherworker who has all the proper tools and knows how to use them, I submit that this is not a quick and easy solution to getting oneself a pair of stays.
                                          Hope this helps,

                                          yrs, Sharon
                                          www.sharonburnston.com
                                          www.villagegreenclothier.com
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