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Re: [18cLife] Re: Riding habit shirts? was undersleeves,

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  • Sharon Ann Burnston
    I am coming into this late, but would you refresh me on why are we trying so hard to find an 18th-century use for these under-sleeves when they are common to
    Message 1 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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      I am coming into this late, but would you refresh me on why are we trying so hard to find an 18th-century use for these under-sleeves when they are common to the 19th?

      Dear Lauren
      They have gone unremarked in 18c use.
      However, we do see them in 18c text references, as "sleeves" separate from shifts, and a few surviving 18c examples exist.
      I brought them up because I believe they were used to fill-in when a garment had longer sleeves than the shift did, such as in the later 1780's and 1790's, when long sleeved gowns became a fashion, but shift sleeves remained elbow length.

      I hope this helps.

      yrs, Sharon
      www.sharonburnston.com
      www.villagegreenclothier.com
    • Miss Hallie
      Dear Sharon and List, the listing of sleeves in the Old Bailey, are not associated with the social class of one who would wear a Brunswick or a tailor made
      Message 2 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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        Dear Sharon and List, the listing of "sleeves" in the Old Bailey, are not associated with the social class of one who would wear a Brunswick or a tailor made garment such as a riding habit. The working class of London would have no use for these as sleeve extensions for that purpose in the 1740s-70s which is when so many of these "sleeves" are listed. As of right now, I have yet to find any documentation for separate "sleeves" in the Colonies. Has anyone else? In an inventory or other source?


        Hallie

        --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, Sharon Ann Burnston <millfarm@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I am coming into this late, but would you refresh me on why are we trying so hard to find an 18th-century use for these under-sleeves when they are common to the 19th?
        >
        > Dear Lauren
        > They have gone unremarked in 18c use.
        > However, we do see them in 18c text references, as "sleeves" separate from shifts, and a few surviving 18c examples exist.
        > I brought them up because I believe they were used to fill-in when a garment had longer sleeves than the shift did, such as in the later 1780's and 1790's, when long sleeved gowns became a fashion, but shift sleeves remained elbow length.
        >
        > I hope this helps.
        >
        > yrs, Sharon
        > www.sharonburnston.com
        > www.villagegreenclothier.com
        >
      • N.E.Watt
        Again, from my copious Revlist/18cWoman files – these are from a file I called New Hampshire Women s Inventories 1760-89. As I mistakenly thought that
        Message 3 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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          Again, from my copious Revlist/18cWoman files – these are from a file I called New Hampshire Women's Inventories 1760-89. As I mistakenly thought that 18cWoman and Revlist archives would last forever, I was only ever going to use the files for personal info - therefore I apologize to whoever posted these things originally as I have no information on who that was. I only include each entry to the point where the sleeves appear:

          Elizabeth Newmarch, Portsmouth, £42
          WILL, 30 May 1764
          to aunt Allace Marden, wearing apparrelle
          INVENTORY, 18 January 1767
          1 pr. Silver Shoe buckles
          1 Stone Gold ring
          1 Tortoise Shell ring
          1 pr. Stone Sleeve buttons
          1 Odd Ditto
          1 Embroidered Silk Apron
          1 Tabby workd. Cap
          1 pr. Infants Mittins
          1 pr. Infants Sleeves

          Hannah Horney, Portsmouth, £5693
          INVENTORY, 1765
          a bedstead & Horse for Clothes
          1 New Russel Gown
          one black bumazeen sute Clothes
          1 stampt black & white Cotton Gown
          1 Strip'd cotton Ditto
          one purple & White chince Ditto
          1 Small Strip'd holland Ditto
          one Short red Cloak
          1 Crimson Ditto
          one Camblet Gown
          1 Yd. 1/2 2 White Silk sleeves & Bib

          Susanna Pitman, Portsmouth, £395
          INVENTORY, 22 October 1768
          1 Lookin glass & 2 small ditto
          1 Plad. Banyan & Wascoat
          1 Blew Cloth Cloak
          1 pr. Plush Briches
          6 Holland Shirts Ruffild. & Plane
          2 1/4 Yards Cotton Velvett @8/
          11 3/4 Yard. Crimsen Allapeen @ 2/8
          6 Yds. White Ditto @ 2/8
          1 dark Camblet Redeing Wood
          2 ps. Stays Old & 3 flannil Wascots
          3 Quilt Petty Coats & 4 Under Coats
          4 Womans Gounds
          1 Blue Cloak Womans
          4 White Linnen Aprons
          7 Check Ditto
          8 Cotton Shifts
          2 1/4 Yds. White Linnen
          6 Lin. Handkerchifes
          1 Silk Ditto
          11 Linen Caps
          2 pr. Womens Linen Sleeves
        • N.E.Watt
          From the first couple of Pennsylvania Gazette files - no more time this morning: SIX DOLLARS Reward. RUN away on the 18th of October, 1771, at night, from the
          Message 4 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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            From the first couple of Pennsylvania Gazette files - no more time this morning:

            SIX DOLLARS Reward.
            RUN away on the 18th of October, 1771, at night, from the subscriber, living at the Sign of the Bible-in-Heart, in Strawberry alley, an indented servant woman, named ELEANOR ARMSTRONG, about 5 feet 4 inches high, pretty lusty, brown complexion, large featured, dark sooty coloured hair, about 26 years of age, has a large mouth, and an excellent sett of teeth; she takes snuff immoderately at the right side of her nose, says she was born near the city of Armagh, in Ireland, and came to this city in the Newry Packet, Captain Robinson, in June last; had on, and took with her, when she went away, a long
            chits wrapper, of a yellow ground, with large red and brown sunflowers the pattern, the sleeves pieced near the cuff, with red and brown spotted calicoe, and broke under the arms; and over said wrapper, a short gown, with some red and white stripes and sprigs through it, a good deal worn, and pieced under the arms with check linen, the colour much faded; a new camblet skirt, of a deep blue, and one old ditto, of a light blue colour, a good small check
            apron, of a bad colour, a green Barcelona handkerchief, much faded, one large blue and white check ditto, marked in one corner E.E. a clean cap, with a black sattin ribbon, tied round her head, and brought under her chin, a blue cloth cloak, with a cap to it, tied at the neck with a narrow worsted tape; an old changeable silk bonnet, lined with blue silk, and tied with a white ribbon; 3 coarse shifts, one of which is a homespun, <<with a pair of fine sleeves>>, one ozenbrigs ditto, and one coarse tow ditto, with broken ruffles on
            the same; a pair of blue yarn stockings, a pair of coarse white ditto, a pair of mens shoes, half soaled, with one brass buckle, and one steel ditto, pierced in the rim; she wore on the middle finger of her right hand a brass ring, is much given to liquor, and when in liquor, is apt to laugh greatly, speaks with the Irish tone. As she takes delight in no other work than spinning, it is thought she has hired herself some where in the country for that purpose; and, as she hath been gone so long, it is probable she has changed her dress; she will be apt to alter her name to Fulton; she was seen in Burlington a few weeks ago, in company with another woman. All masters of vessels and others, are forbid to harbour or carry her off, as they may depend
            upon being proceeded against, as the law directs. Whoever takes up and secures said servant, so that her master may have her again, shall receive the above reward, with reasonable charges, paid by WILLIAM EVITT.

            Maybe, maybe not:
            ITEM #54110
            October 6, 1773
            The Pennsylvania Gazette
            FORTY SHILLINGS REWARD.
            RUN away, on the third of this instant October, from the subscriber,
            living in Moyamensing township, an Irish servant woman, named JANE
            McDOLE, pretty far advanced in her pregnancy, and speaks very broad
            English, about 17 years of age, 5 feet high, long black hair, fair
            face, and red cheeks; had on a lincey petticoat , striped with
            green and black, a yellow under petticoat , with red
            binding , a homespun shift, <<with linen sleeves>>, white apron, white thread stockings, leather shoes, torn across the upper part, a fine cap, with double laced border, a white muslin handkerchief, a redish poplin gown, somewhat stained behind, and a blue silk bonnet. Whoever takes up or secures said servant, so that her master may have her again, shall receive the above reward, and all reasonable charges, paid by GEORGE LESUR.

            ITEM #59225
            April 17, 1776
            The Pennsylvania Gazette

            GOODS at the MAYOR'S OFFICE, supposed to be stolen, 1 chintz gown, 1
            pair of pockets, 1 woolsey petticoat , 3 childrens gowns, 1
            womanshort gown, 2 check aprons, 1 table cloth; 2 shifts, marked S : I
            No. 2; 1 white under petticoat , with a calicoe border ; 1
            kenting apron, marked S : I; <<1 pair womansleeves, of new linen>>, not finished; 2 childrens shifts, marked S : I; a gentlemanPortuguese
            cloak; 2 remnants of furniture check; 1 remnant of calicoe; some
            thread; some cards of brass gilt coat and waistcoat buttons; ribbons;
            ferret; a snuff boxes; steel watch keys; some common sleeve buttons;
            half a cheese; a small quantity of lump sugar; 1 black hatband and
            buckle. April 15, 1776.
          • Miss Hallie
            Thanks Nancy! One sure reference there, pretty sure silk sleeves and bib refers to a child s garment. Infant sleeves are also different kettle of fish, saw
            Message 5 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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              Thanks Nancy!

              One sure reference there, pretty sure "silk sleeves and bib" refers to a child's garment. Infant sleeves are also different kettle of fish, saw a number of them in the Foundling Hospital billet books, they were detachable sleeves to the gown of the baby, often of printed fabrics, very colorful.

              Hallie

              --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, "N.E.Watt" <CrowCeilidh@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Again, from my copious Revlist/18cWoman files – these are from a file I called New Hampshire Women's Inventories 1760-89. As I mistakenly thought that 18cWoman and Revlist archives would last forever, I was only ever going to use the files for personal info - therefore I apologize to whoever posted these things originally as I have no information on who that was. I only include each entry to the point where the sleeves appear:
              >
              > Elizabeth Newmarch, Portsmouth, £42
              > WILL, 30 May 1764
              > to aunt Allace Marden, wearing apparrelle
              > INVENTORY, 18 January 1767
              > 1 pr. Silver Shoe buckles
              > 1 Stone Gold ring
              > 1 Tortoise Shell ring
              > 1 pr. Stone Sleeve buttons
              > 1 Odd Ditto
              > 1 Embroidered Silk Apron
              > 1 Tabby workd. Cap
              > 1 pr. Infants Mittins
              > 1 pr. Infants Sleeves
              >
              > Hannah Horney, Portsmouth, £5693
              > INVENTORY, 1765
              > a bedstead & Horse for Clothes
              > 1 New Russel Gown
              > one black bumazeen sute Clothes
              > 1 stampt black & white Cotton Gown
              > 1 Strip'd cotton Ditto
              > one purple & White chince Ditto
              > 1 Small Strip'd holland Ditto
              > one Short red Cloak
              > 1 Crimson Ditto
              > one Camblet Gown
              > 1 Yd. 1/2 2 White Silk sleeves & Bib
              >
              > Susanna Pitman, Portsmouth, £395
              > INVENTORY, 22 October 1768
              > 1 Lookin glass & 2 small ditto
              > 1 Plad. Banyan & Wascoat
              > 1 Blew Cloth Cloak
              > 1 pr. Plush Briches
              > 6 Holland Shirts Ruffild. & Plane
              > 2 1/4 Yards Cotton Velvett @8/
              > 11 3/4 Yard. Crimsen Allapeen @ 2/8
              > 6 Yds. White Ditto @ 2/8
              > 1 dark Camblet Redeing Wood
              > 2 ps. Stays Old & 3 flannil Wascots
              > 3 Quilt Petty Coats & 4 Under Coats
              > 4 Womans Gounds
              > 1 Blue Cloak Womans
              > 4 White Linnen Aprons
              > 7 Check Ditto
              > 8 Cotton Shifts
              > 2 1/4 Yds. White Linnen
              > 6 Lin. Handkerchifes
              > 1 Silk Ditto
              > 11 Linen Caps
              > 2 pr. Womens Linen Sleeves
              >
            • Kimberly K. Walters
              I wear a ruffled shirt with my riding habit.  It serves as my shift and there is no need to wear anything else under it.  No bulk and it extends to my
              Message 6 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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                I wear a ruffled shirt with my riding habit.  It serves as my shift and there is no need to wear anything else under it.  No bulk and it extends to my thighs.



                Kim




                Kimberly K. Walters

                Website:  www.kwaltersatthesignofthegrayhorse.blogspot.com

                also on Facebook

                18th & 19thC Inspired Earrings, Hatpins, Etc.


                Housekeeper, Washington HQ
                www.generalwashington.net
                 
                Campfollower, 17th Light Dragoons
                www.17ld.blogspot.com



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lauren Walker
                Thanks, Sharon. Given that they are all over the 19th, it s reasonable to think there was a precedent in the 18th. Would you wear them with a Brunswick, maybe?
                Message 7 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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                  Thanks, Sharon. Given that they are all over the 19th, it's reasonable to think there was a precedent in the 18th. Would you wear them with a Brunswick, maybe?
                  Lauren M. Walker
                  lauren.walker@...



                  On May 1, 2012, at 4:42 AM, Sharon Ann Burnston wrote:

                  >
                  > I am coming into this late, but would you refresh me on why are we trying so hard to find an 18th-century use for these under-sleeves when they are common to the 19th?
                  >
                  > Dear Lauren
                  > They have gone unremarked in 18c use.
                  > However, we do see them in 18c text references, as "sleeves" separate from shifts, and a few surviving 18c examples exist.
                  > I brought them up because I believe they were used to fill-in when a garment had longer sleeves than the shift did, such as in the later 1780's and 1790's, when long sleeved gowns became a fashion, but shift sleeves remained elbow length.
                  >
                  > I hope this helps.
                  >
                  > yrs, Sharon
                  > www.sharonburnston.com
                  > www.villagegreenclothier.com
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Kristin Powers
                  I wear a ruffled shirt with my riding habit. It serves as my shift and there is no need to wear anything else under it. No bulk and it extends to my thighs.
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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                    "I wear a ruffled shirt with my riding habit. It serves as my shift and
                    there is no need to wear anything else under it. No bulk and it extends to
                    my thighs. "

                    We know that riding habits were worn over stays, as they are a tailored
                    garment, and the way stays come up over the breasts would smush the ruffles
                    of the opening of the habit shirt. From extant riding habit shirts, we know
                    they are short--maybe 15" at the most down center front, completely open at
                    center front, and were definitely worn over stays, with the shift beneath
                    the stays as the foundation layer.

                    I was fortunate enough to be able to take a workshop with Vicky and Matt
                    Brenckle through The Hive up here in New England; Vicky has done some great
                    research on riding habit shirts. I'm not sure if she is a part of this
                    list, if she is I hope she chimes in, but she does have some great examples
                    and resources with extant garments.

                    YH&AS,
                    Kristin

                    On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Kimberly K. Walters <
                    kimberlywalters@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I wear a ruffled shirt with my riding habit. It serves as my shift and
                    > there is no need to wear anything else under it. No bulk and it extends to
                    > my thighs.
                    >
                    > Kim
                    >
                    > Kimberly K. Walters
                    >
                    > Website: www.kwaltersatthesignofthegrayhorse.blogspot.com
                    >
                    > also on Facebook
                    >
                    > 18th & 19thC Inspired Earrings, Hatpins, Etc.
                    >
                    > Housekeeper, Washington HQ
                    > www.generalwashington.net
                    >
                    > Campfollower, 17th Light Dragoons
                    > www.17ld.blogspot.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sue Felshin
                    ... Hi, Nancy. Note that Dot Fisher reposted these inventories to the 18Life Files, so they are available to all list members. It was Dot who posted them to
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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                      At 12:08 PM +0000 5/1/12, N.E.Watt wrote:
                      >Again, from my copious Revlist/18cWoman files –
                      >these are from a file I called New Hampshire
                      >Women's Inventories 1760-89.

                      Hi, Nancy. Note that Dot Fisher reposted these
                      inventories to the 18Life Files, so they are
                      available to all list members. It was Dot who
                      posted them to the 18cWoman Files way back when.

                      Your affectionate servant,
                      Sue Felshin
                      sfelshin@...
                    • Sue Felshin
                      ... I don t think anyone has mentioned it yet on this list, so this seems like a good time to point out that there is a formatting problem with the online
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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                        At 12:20 PM +0000 5/1/12, N.E.Watt wrote:
                        >From the first couple of Pennsylvania Gazette files - no more time
                        >this morning:
                        >
                        >[snip]
                        >ITEM #59225
                        >April 17, 1776
                        >The Pennsylvania Gazette
                        >
                        >GOODS at the MAYOR'S OFFICE, supposed to be stolen, 1 chintz gown, 1
                        >pair of pockets, 1 woolsey petticoat , 3 childrens gowns, 1
                        >womanshort gown, 2 check aprons, 1 table cloth; 2 shifts, marked S :
                        >I No. 2; 1 white under petticoat , with a calicoe border ; 1 kenting
                        >apron, marked S : I; <<1 pair womansleeves, of new linen>>, not
                        >finished; 2 childrens shifts, marked S : I; a gentlemanPortuguese
                        >cloak; [snip]

                        I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet on this list, so this seems
                        like a good time to point out that there is a formatting problem with
                        the online Pennsylvania Gazette where any time there is an apostrophe
                        in the original content, all text in the online version gets deleted
                        from the apostrophe through the next space, inclusive. So the entry
                        above probably originally said "1 pair woman's sleeves, of new linen
                        ... a gentleman's Portuguese cloak". Whenever you see some text run
                        together in a PA Gazette item in a way that makes no sense, try to
                        imagine whether there could have been an apostrophe and some
                        following text that got deleted. It's pretty easy to figure out for
                        cases of possessive apostrophe esses like above, but tricker in some
                        other cases. For example, if someone used abbreviated forms for
                        names, then "Tho's saw Sam'ls horse run away" would get turned into
                        "Thosaw Samhorse run away". (I made that example up. I wished I'd
                        searched for an actual example, but that would have taken too long.
                        I've seen some doozies, I promise you.)

                        I don't know if the online PA Gazette still has this problem, but
                        there are plenty of old entries floating around.

                        Your affectionate servant,
                        Sue Felshin
                        sfelshin@...
                      • Sharon Ann Burnston
                        ... Dear Lauren I suspect so. I am also wondering whether some women who wore riding-habits may have used them instead of bothering with the habit-shirt, but
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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                          >Thanks, Sharon. Given that they are all over the 19th, it's reasonable to think there was a precedent in the 18th. Would you wear them with a Brunswick, maybe?

                          Dear Lauren
                          I suspect so. I am also wondering whether some women who wore riding-habits may have used them instead of bothering with the habit-shirt, but that's pure speculation.
                          I also suspect that we will find that the textual evidence for these "sleeves" has a significant uptick in the 1780's when long sleeved gowns become a fashion.
                          Hope this helps!


                          yrs, Sharon
                          www.sharonburnston.com
                          www.villagegreenclothier.com
                        • Emily Murphy
                          Could some of these sleeves be protective oversleeves, like the ones sometimes depicted being worn by bakers and inkeepers? Just a thought -- Emily Murphy
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                            Could some of these sleeves be protective oversleeves, like the ones sometimes depicted being worn by bakers and inkeepers? Just a thought --

                            Emily Murphy


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Kimberly K. Walters
                            I do not wear a shift underneath my stays - I wear my ruffled shirt is seen fine under my weskit. It could be that I m small enough that the shirt that I wear
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                              I do not wear a shift underneath my stays - I wear my ruffled shirt is seen fine under my weskit.

                              It could be that I'm small enough that the shirt that I wear is just long on me - but it works wonderfully and I am very comfortable riding or just walking around.



                              Kim





                              Kimberly K. Walters

                              Website:  www.kwaltersatthesignofthegrayhorse.blogspot.com

                              also on Facebook

                              18th & 19thC Inspired Earrings, Hatpins, Etc.


                              Housekeeper, Washington HQ
                              www.generalwashington.net
                               
                              Campfollower, 17th Light Dragoons
                              www.17ld.blogspot.com



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Miss Hallie
                              Dear Emily and list, I have found a reference in the Old Bailey to housewife cuffs , down at her wrist (unfortunate person was murdered). RIchard Hewett,
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                                Dear Emily and list,

                                I have found a reference in the Old Bailey to "housewife cuffs", "down at her wrist" (unfortunate person was murdered).

                                RIchard Hewett, Benjamin Johnson, Killing > murder, 10th April 1771

                                and also of the opine, that "shift sleeves" could be another naming of sleeve ruffles. According to Samuel Johnson in his dictionary (1763). The word "shift" refer to a woman's linen, a rather broad interpretation to a word that we very narrowly define as the garment.

                                Hallie

                                --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, Emily Murphy <eamurphy@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Could some of these sleeves be protective oversleeves, like the ones sometimes depicted being worn by bakers and inkeepers? Just a thought --
                                >
                                > Emily Murphy
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Sue Felshin
                                ... I ve also been wondering whether shift sleeves could be another naming of sleeve ruffles, but that reading doesn t make any sense for the infant sleeves
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                                  At 4:03 PM +0000 5/2/12, Miss Hallie wrote:
                                  >Dear Emily and list,
                                  >
                                  >I have found a reference in the Old Bailey to "housewife cuffs",
                                  >"down at her wrist" (unfortunate person was murdered).
                                  >
                                  >RIchard Hewett, Benjamin Johnson, Killing > murder, 10th April 1771
                                  >
                                  >and also of the opine, that "shift sleeves" could be another naming
                                  >of sleeve ruffles.

                                  I've also been wondering whether "shift sleeves" could be another
                                  naming of sleeve ruffles, but that reading doesn't make any sense for
                                  the infant sleeves in the inventories that Nancy Watt cited. But if
                                  "sleeve" can mean a garment sleeve and a ruffle, why shouldn't it
                                  also mean a detachable infant's sleeve.

                                  Back to Hallie's post:

                                  > According to Samuel Johnson in his dictionary (1763). The word
                                  >"shift" refer to a woman's linen, a rather broad interpretation to a
                                  >word that we very narrowly define as the garment.

                                  Either that, or Samuel Johnson thought that "a woman's linen"
                                  specifically meant her shift. I looked up his entry for linen (see
                                  http://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/) but it was unsatisfactory. A
                                  quote from Shakespeare suggests that he _did_ think "her linen" meant
                                  a shift, but he doesn't give a specific definition of a woman's
                                  linen. The quote is Shakesp. M Wives of Windsor. "Unseen, unfelt,
                                  the fiery serpent skims / Between her linen and her naked limbs."
                                  The definition of "linen" is at
                                  http://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/?page_id=7070&i=1208
                                  The definition of "shift" is at
                                  http://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/?page_id=7070&i=1208
                                  For comparison purposes, I checked out "shirt" at
                                  http://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/?page_id=7070&i=1819
                                  It has a definition as "The under linen garment of a man." That's
                                  not quite parallel to the definition for "shift".

                                  Even if "sleeves" can mean "sleeve ruffles", unless they are
                                  misidentified as 18c we still have to account for the artifacts with
                                  cuffs at both ends:

                                  At 2:46 PM +0000 4/27/12, N.E.Watt wrote:
                                  > > http://ladysrepositorymuseum.blogspot.com/search/label/Museum

                                  Your affectionate servant,
                                  Sue Felshin
                                  sfelshin@...
                                • Miss Hallie
                                  Dear Sue.. I think infant sleeve is exactly that.. saw a ton of them in the Foundling Billet books and they are gown sleeves. As for the artifacts noted on
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                                    Dear Sue.. I think "infant sleeve" is exactly that.. saw a ton of them in the Foundling Billet books and they are gown sleeves. As for the artifacts noted on the Lady's Repository site, how do we know the correct dating? I have often looked at the cover of Dress of the People and the white cuffs worn by the working class woman and wondered if those could be a version of a shift sleeve. Lots of questions! As usual, no clear answers.

                                    http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O77223/oil-painting-at-the-inn-door/

                                    Hallie
                                    --- In 18cLife@yahoogroups.com, Sue Felshin <sfelshin@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > At 4:03 PM +0000 5/2/12, Miss Hallie wrote:
                                    > >Dear Emily and list,
                                    > >
                                    > >I have found a reference in the Old Bailey to "housewife cuffs",
                                    > >"down at her wrist" (unfortunate person was murdered).
                                    > >
                                    > >RIchard Hewett, Benjamin Johnson, Killing > murder, 10th April 1771
                                    > >
                                    > >and also of the opine, that "shift sleeves" could be another naming
                                    > >of sleeve ruffles.
                                    >
                                    > I've also been wondering whether "shift sleeves" could be another
                                    > naming of sleeve ruffles, but that reading doesn't make any sense for
                                    > the infant sleeves in the inventories that Nancy Watt cited. But if
                                    > "sleeve" can mean a garment sleeve and a ruffle, why shouldn't it
                                    > also mean a detachable infant's sleeve.
                                    >
                                    > Back to Hallie's post:
                                    >
                                    > > According to Samuel Johnson in his dictionary (1763). The word
                                    > >"shift" refer to a woman's linen, a rather broad interpretation to a
                                    > >word that we very narrowly define as the garment.
                                    >
                                    > Either that, or Samuel Johnson thought that "a woman's linen"
                                    > specifically meant her shift. I looked up his entry for linen (see
                                    > http://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/) but it was unsatisfactory. A
                                    > quote from Shakespeare suggests that he _did_ think "her linen" meant
                                    > a shift, but he doesn't give a specific definition of a woman's
                                    > linen. The quote is Shakesp. M Wives of Windsor. "Unseen, unfelt,
                                    > the fiery serpent skims / Between her linen and her naked limbs."
                                    > The definition of "linen" is at
                                    > http://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/?page_id=7070&i=1208
                                    > The definition of "shift" is at
                                    > http://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/?page_id=7070&i=1208
                                    > For comparison purposes, I checked out "shirt" at
                                    > http://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/?page_id=7070&i=1819
                                    > It has a definition as "The under linen garment of a man." That's
                                    > not quite parallel to the definition for "shift".
                                    >
                                    > Even if "sleeves" can mean "sleeve ruffles", unless they are
                                    > misidentified as 18c we still have to account for the artifacts with
                                    > cuffs at both ends:
                                    >
                                    > At 2:46 PM +0000 4/27/12, N.E.Watt wrote:
                                    > > > http://ladysrepositorymuseum.blogspot.com/search/label/Museum
                                    >
                                    > Your affectionate servant,
                                    > Sue Felshin
                                    > sfelshin@...
                                    >
                                  • Dot and Lee Fisher
                                    I m glad to see people making use of those inventories. I would only like to repeat that when I got permission to publish them, it was with the understanding
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                                      I'm glad to see people making use of those inventories. I would only
                                      like to repeat that when I got permission to publish them, it was with
                                      the understanding that Bethany Rutledge's name stay with the work.
                                      There have been several changes in personal at the American Independence
                                      Museum since then and I would like the museum name to also stay with her
                                      work, as she was an intern with us at the time. If anyone should by
                                      chance know her, please let her know how much we of the list have used
                                      her work. Unfortunately I'm not in touch with her.

                                      Dot Fisher

                                      > Note that Dot Fisher reposted these
                                      > inventories to the 18Life Files,
                                    • Sharon Ann Burnston
                                      ... Dear Kimberly Thank you for answering my question. But doesn t this mean that you have to strip to the skin in order to change from the riding habit to
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                                        >I do not wear a shift underneath my stays - I wear my ruffled shirt is seen fine under my weskit.
                                        >
                                        >It could be that I'm small enough that the shirt that I wear is just long on me - but it works wonderfully and I am very comfortable riding or just walking around.


                                        Dear Kimberly
                                        Thank you for answering my question. But doesn't this mean that you have to strip to the skin in order to change from the riding habit to something else?
                                        Thanks!

                                        yrs, Sharon
                                        www.sharonburnston.com
                                        www.villagegreenclothier.com
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