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Buhler Motors

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  • bob900750
    Hello All My early experiences with Om motors involved burn out of the Buhler 18/33 can motors fitted to Fama/Utz locomotives. My fellow modeller Steve
    Message 1 of 6 , May 1, 2007
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      Hello All

      My early experiences with 'Om' motors involved 'burn out' of the
      Buhler 18/33 can motors fitted to Fama/Utz locomotives. My fellow
      modeller Steve and I began to suspect that overheating was the
      problem and that the 12 volt / 1 amp controllers we were using were
      not providing sufficient current. (The best estimate is a draw
      current of 1.26 amps which means that two-motor locos were never
      going to survive too long but more of this later) Subsequently we
      changed to 12 volt / 1.5 amp controllers but the problem recurred.

      We then suspected the feedback nature of the AMR controllers we were
      using - this constant voltage supply up - down - or round corners -
      could be sending the heat back to the motor(s). Also standard
      feedback controllers send a brief pulse of AC to the motor before the
      DC arrives. So finally Steve made some pure DC controllers and the
      problem went away with most of the locos.

      However under exhibition conditions (running over a Friday,Saturday
      and Sunday), the two FO HGe 4/4" have both succumbed to shut down of
      one motor; in other words, one motor steals all the current risking
      burn out of that unit. Exhibitions mean that these machines are
      running up to 5 or 6 hours over the weekend. This may be a separate
      problem from the original.

      Back to the stall current; an equivalent 12 volt can motor is sold by
      MicroMark in USA - www.micromark.com - item number 82884 - for
      US$19.95 each. The stall torque quoted is 1.5 amps. It needs a bit
      of adjustment to fit as it is 0.925 inches or 23.5 mm wide across the
      widest point. But it has a 2mm shaft so the gear pinion can be
      transferred.

      I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used the original
      Fama transformer/controllers. My finances in the 1980s ran to rolling
      stock only and everything else needed was either bought in UK or home-
      made.

      Kind regards to all
      Bob Simmonds
    • Tom
      ... [snip] ... [snip] ... Hi Bob I am hoping to get a RhB Gem 4/4 Nr. 802 in the not too distant future, for a pressie, so am interested in converting the
      Message 2 of 6 , May 2, 2007
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        --- In 0mSwissmetregauge@yahoogroups.com, "bob900750" <bob.bern@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hello All
        >
        [snip]
        > MicroMark in USA - www.micromark.com - item number 82884 - for
        > US$19.95 each. The stall torque quoted is 1.5 amps. It needs a bit
        > of adjustment to fit as it is 0.925 inches or 23.5 mm wide across the
        > widest point. But it has a 2mm shaft so the gear pinion can be
        > transferred.
        [snip]
        > Kind regards to all
        > Bob Simmonds
        >

        Hi Bob

        I am hoping to get a RhB Gem 4/4 Nr. 802 in the not too distant
        future, for a pressie, so am interested in converting the motor as I
        believe it has 1 Bühler Motor. Also as I am going down the DCC route I
        am looking at getting some 0 scale decoders, but looking at your
        figures it would seem that they are not necassary. As I am not very
        clued-up when it comes to all the electrickery, What is pure DC and
        how do you get it?

        Regards
        t0m
      • marcelleke
        ... were ... the ... Hello Bob, I do not completely understand where you take the 1.26 amp current take from. The small buhler motors use as far as I can sea,
        Message 3 of 6 , May 7, 2007
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          --- In 0mSwissmetregauge@yahoogroups.com, "bob900750" <bob.bern@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hello All
          >
          > My early experiences with 'Om' motors involved 'burn out' of the
          > Buhler 18/33 can motors fitted to Fama/Utz locomotives. My fellow
          > modeller Steve and I began to suspect that overheating was the
          > problem and that the 12 volt / 1 amp controllers we were using were
          > not providing sufficient current. (The best estimate is a draw
          > current of 1.26 amps which means that two-motor locos were never
          > going to survive too long but more of this later) Subsequently we
          > changed to 12 volt / 1.5 amp controllers but the problem recurred.
          >
          > We then suspected the feedback nature of the AMR controllers we
          were
          > using - this constant voltage supply up - down - or round corners -
          > could be sending the heat back to the motor(s). Also standard
          > feedback controllers send a brief pulse of AC to the motor before
          the
          > DC arrives. So finally Steve made some pure DC controllers and the
          > problem went away with most of the locos.

          Hello Bob,

          I do not completely understand where you take the 1.26 amp current
          take from. The small buhler motors use as far as I can sea, not more
          then 300 mA, maybe have a little higher peak rate.
          The transformer I saw in the utz catalog has 7 VA for 0-14 Volt
          output, what means 0,5 A for 14 volts. This seams to be enough for
          operating a locomotive with one or may be even 2 motors.

          If you start using DCC decoders take in mind that these things make
          use of pulse with modulation and do not make a full flatt DC level
          (the last one takes a lot of power in the convertor). I guess the
          Buhler motors do not like the impulsewith modulation. The same thing
          I could sea in the old Bemo locomotives with the 3-pole buhler motors
          when operating on my own build puls controller. I could sea mayor
          improvement when I exchanged the controller by a LM317 base circuit
          (this is a small IC for DC power supply's from 1.2 volts and upwards)

          If you want to use DCC decoders in these models, and still keep using
          the buhler motors select decoders that are sutable for faulhaber
          (coreless) moters. I have good experience (from my H0 layout) with
          ESU lokpilot decoders. they have a high frequency output and are
          suitable for all type of motors. The high frequency will give the
          motor the feeling of DC. They work on all type of cheap and expensive
          models (where cheap is a model based on the cheapest mehano drive)

          website http://www.loksound.de/ only in german, but looking at
          download, betriebsanleitungen, also english documents are available.

          These decoders use load control that can be switched off. This can be
          needed when operating locomotives with 2 motors. despite the relative
          small power consumption I would build in 2 decoders in such
          locomotives and would experiment with the load control. Until now I
          build in 3 decoders in single motor fama/Roco engines and these are
          working without problems.

          Marcel




          Some decoders make use of high frequency pulse with
        • bob900750
          ... Hi Marcel I am sorry if I gave the imnpression that I know the current draw of these motors - it was an informed guess and I think that you are probably
          Message 4 of 6 , May 8, 2007
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            --- In 0mSwissmetregauge@yahoogroups.com, "marcelleke"
            <m.e.f.schuring@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In 0mSwissmetregauge@yahoogroups.com, "bob900750" <bob.bern@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello All
            > >
            > > My early experiences with 'Om' motors involved 'burn out' of the
            > > Buhler 18/33 can motors fitted to Fama/Utz locomotives. My fellow
            > > modeller Steve and I began to suspect that overheating was the
            > > problem and that the 12 volt / 1 amp controllers we were using were
            > > not providing sufficient current. (The best estimate is a draw
            > > current of 1.26 amps which means that two-motor locos were never
            > > going to survive too long but more of this later) Subsequently we
            > > changed to 12 volt / 1.5 amp controllers but the problem recurred.
            > >
            > > We then suspected the feedback nature of the AMR controllers we
            > were
            > > using - this constant voltage supply up - down - or round corners -
            > > could be sending the heat back to the motor(s). Also standard
            > > feedback controllers send a brief pulse of AC to the motor before
            > the
            > > DC arrives. So finally Steve made some pure DC controllers and the
            > > problem went away with most of the locos.
            >
            > Hello Bob,
            >
            > I do not completely understand where you take the 1.26 amp current
            > take from. The small buhler motors use as far as I can sea, not more
            > then 300 mA, maybe have a little higher peak rate.
            > The transformer I saw in the utz catalog has 7 VA for 0-14 Volt
            > output, what means 0,5 A for 14 volts. This seams to be enough for
            > operating a locomotive with one or may be even 2 motors.
            >
            > If you start using DCC decoders take in mind that these things make
            > use of pulse with modulation and do not make a full flatt DC level
            > (the last one takes a lot of power in the convertor). I guess the
            > Buhler motors do not like the impulsewith modulation. The same thing
            > I could sea in the old Bemo locomotives with the 3-pole buhler motors
            > when operating on my own build puls controller. I could sea mayor
            > improvement when I exchanged the controller by a LM317 base circuit
            > (this is a small IC for DC power supply's from 1.2 volts and upwards)
            >
            > If you want to use DCC decoders in these models, and still keep using
            > the buhler motors select decoders that are sutable for faulhaber
            > (coreless) moters. I have good experience (from my H0 layout) with
            > ESU lokpilot decoders. they have a high frequency output and are
            > suitable for all type of motors. The high frequency will give the
            > motor the feeling of DC. They work on all type of cheap and expensive
            > models (where cheap is a model based on the cheapest mehano drive)
            >
            > website http://www.loksound.de/ only in german, but looking at
            > download, betriebsanleitungen, also english documents are available.
            >
            > These decoders use load control that can be switched off. This can be
            > needed when operating locomotives with 2 motors. despite the relative
            > small power consumption I would build in 2 decoders in such
            > locomotives and would experiment with the load control. Until now I
            > build in 3 decoders in single motor fama/Roco engines and these are
            > working without problems.
            >
            > Marcel
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Some decoders make use of high frequency pulse with
            >

            Hi Marcel

            I am sorry if I gave the imnpression that I know the current draw of
            these motors - it was an informed guess and I think that you are
            probably correct that the draw is much, much smaller. So far I have
            kept to DC rather than DCC.

            Bob
          • marcelleke
            ... Hi Bob, There is a website from bühler http://www.buehlermotor.de english language available If you like at size etc it looks motor type STANDARD
            Message 5 of 6 , May 11, 2007
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              >
              > Hi Marcel
              >
              > I am sorry if I gave the imnpression that I know the current draw of
              > these motors - it was an informed guess and I think that you are
              > probably correct that the draw is much, much smaller. So far I have
              > kept to DC rather than DCC.
              >
              > Bob
              >

              Hi Bob,

              There is a website from bühler

              http://www.buehlermotor.de

              english language available

              If you like at size etc it looks motor type STANDARD 1.16.011. is the
              one that is sued in our models (or maybe an older version). please
              check, I am not shure (not opened up my models to look). As far as I
              understood such motors have been used in carrera stokcars and were
              widely available (ebay)

              An exchange motor that would allmost fit is the Mashima 18x24, but I
              have to look this from a document. just the distance between the
              screws is a little smaller (12 instead of 14) and it has axles on
              both sites, but therefor it is a little shorter. that difference
              could be used to add a flywheel.
              I might try this one once (and let you know), it is a 5 pole motor

              Does anybody have experience with Maxon motors?
              Must be something special!

              regards,

              Marcel
            • bob900750
              ... bit ... the ... route I ... Hi Tom First my apologies for not replying sooner to your request. I am very dangerous with 12 volts dc but here goes ! Some
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 16, 2007
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                --- In 0mSwissmetregauge@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <pinfoldst@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In 0mSwissmetregauge@yahoogroups.com, "bob900750" <bob.bern@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello All
                > >
                > [snip]
                > > MicroMark in USA - www.micromark.com - item number 82884 - for
                > > US$19.95 each. The stall torque quoted is 1.5 amps. It needs a
                bit
                > > of adjustment to fit as it is 0.925 inches or 23.5 mm wide across
                the
                > > widest point. But it has a 2mm shaft so the gear pinion can be
                > > transferred.
                > [snip]
                > > Kind regards to all
                > > Bob Simmonds
                > >
                >
                > Hi Bob
                >
                > I am hoping to get a RhB Gem 4/4 Nr. 802 in the not too distant
                > future, for a pressie, so am interested in converting the motor as I
                > believe it has 1 Bühler Motor. Also as I am going down the DCC
                route I
                > am looking at getting some 0 scale decoders, but looking at your
                > figures it would seem that they are not necassary. As I am not very
                > clued-up when it comes to all the electrickery, What is pure DC and
                > how do you get it?
                >
                > Regards
                > t0m
                >
                Hi Tom

                First my apologies for not replying sooner to your request. I am
                very dangerous with 12 volts dc but here goes ! Some of my problems
                can be attributed to my way of doing things. I made my own trackwork
                from Peco nickel silver rail so the 'Fama' magnets were inoperative.
                Secondly, I did not think to compensate for this with more ballast
                (weight) in the loco. Thirdly, I made the 36 inch (92 cm) curves in
                24 mm gauge to allow for easier traction around the corners. Given
                that the original models go round a 58 cm standard curve, I was over-
                cooking it a bit !! I guess that the outside wheels were not pulling
                their weight - literally.

                With hindsight, I think that I created some problems for myself which
                may have lead to the overheating. However, as these are can motors
                and liable to retain heat, you may wish to avoid feedback controllers
                for any long periods of operation. My friend, Steve, made these pure
                DC items for me and if you mail me off-group at surava@...
                I will give you his email address.

                Cheers
                Bob
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