Zacherle Hoag (Vault of the Unexplained) interviewed me and described
me as a former UFO/Area 51 conspiracy advocate-turned-skeptic -
(which is true ) November 27, 2005
Q. What do you believe is behind the UFO phenomena?
- I have researched the "UFO phenomena" for almost 45 years and have
read hundreds and hundreds of sighting reports, analyzed hundreds of
documents, seen many many footages of sightings, personally experienced
a few sightings which I could not readily explain, interviewed hundreds
of eyewitnesses (including some so-called "abductees") and traveled far
and wide to many sightings locations in both Japan and the United
Surprising as it may sound, after all these personal efforts of many
years, I cannot even come close to declaring what is behind the UFO
phenomena. It still remains a mystery to me.
However, after all these years, the bottom line in my view is that we
have yet to come up with a single physical, solid, hard, tangible,
irrefutable evidence to prove that the UFO phenomena are physical
manifestations of physical extraterrestrial intelligent entities from
beyond this earth. I am not saying that the UFO phenomena do not
exist. I am simply saying that empircal science, the only discipline
available so far that we can rely on to determine a physical existence
of a phenomenon, has not come up with any concrete evidence to prove
beyond a shadow of doubt that "UFOs" are physical craft operated or
manipulated and occupied by physical entities from advanced
extraterrestrial civilizations. This is why I came to believe that the
entire phenomena could even be some form of religious manifestations or
religious manipulations by a power which we cannot comprehend simply by
Q. Why do you believe that UFOs are a satanic deception?
- I never said that all UFOs are satanic deception. However, many
highly respected researchers such as John A. Keel, have long come up
with analogies between the UFO phenomenon and many aspects of
demonology or demonic manifestations. Dr. Jacques Vallee, who is one
of the most prominent researchers in this field, has also suggested
that the UFO phenomena could be some form of mental or "spiritual"
manipulations by what can only be described as unknown non-physical,
intelligent (but quite often "mischievous"or even "malevolent")
entities for purposes yet incomprehensible to mankind.
I concur with both of these researchers. I believe that occasionally
these ultra-dimensional entities may be able to suddenly and
temporarily intrude into our physical dimension and appear to be a
physical manifestation to the observer.
Q. Why did you abandon the extraterrestrial hypothesis?
- Just as John A. Keel and Dr. Jacques Vallee have both abandoned
their Extraterrestrial Hypothesis of the origins of the UFO phenomena
after many years of research, I, too, came up with a conclusion that it
is impossible to pursue this phenomenon simply by relying on empirical
methodology to prove that "UFOs" are physical extraterrestrial craft
operated by advanced extraterrestrial civilization probing our planet.
Like I stated, we have yet to come up with any irrefutable, solid
evidence to prove that we are being visited by physical entities from
beyond this earth.
We must be very careful, however, with the use of terminology.
Religionists who believe that UFOs are satanic manifestations may
accept the term "extraterrestrial" in the sense that these entities,
who they often describe as "fallen angelic entities" or "demonic
entities", are not of this earth.
"Extraterrestrial", therefore, is a relative term.
Q. What is your opinion on alien abductions?
- Again, it boils down to this: what the abductees experienced (or
are allegedly experiencing) could be "real" to the abductees, but in
relation to the entire UFO phenomena, there has not been any single,
solid, tangible, physical evidence to prove that we are being visited
or even being experimented on by advanced, physical extraterrestrial
entities from beyon this earth. The abduction phenomenon could also be
some form of yet unknown mass (or individual) psychological phenomenon
or it could be a manipulation by some invisible power for reasons
unknown at this time.
The abduction phenomena experienced by the abductees may be "real" to
the abductees. But again, when we talk about "reality", "reality" is
relative. Therefore, we still do not totally comprehend what "reality"
Q. Can you give us your opinion on John Lear and William Cooper?
- John Lear is an accomplished pilot, period. Because of his long
position as contract pilot for the governmental agencies (i.e., such as
CIA), he does have a comprehensible knowledge of such as the Nevada
Test Site. However, beyond that, whatever he has proclaimed in the
past regarding "aliens" or "alien bases" simply remains a "story",
whether or not one believes that Lear was part of a disinformation
campaign to bring ridicule to those who attempted to scrutinize what
was or is really going on at bases such as Area 51 in Nevada. William
Cooper initially was a believer and promoter of the UFO phenomenon.
However, he later on reversed his position and began to state that the
"government" had manipulated a segment of the population by making them
believe in UFOs to create a universal threat in the future as part of a
convenient means to cause panic in order to forcefully unify the world
into a one-world government.
There was a time when I also took this position. My belief was that
the "global elitists" could use or even stage a fake, artificial
"extraterrestrial threat" as a last resort if they had a need to
forcefully unite this world if it faced some universal crises or
catastrophes. William Cooper in the end spent the last years of his
life promoting the militia movement. His tragic death brought
sobering thoughts to many researchers, including myself. Even though
I did not concur totally with Cooper's ideas, I attended his funeral in
Q. What do you believe goes on at Area 51?
- Many defense-related projects go on at Area 51. Defense
contractors (such as E.G. & G., Raytheon, Lockheed, Northrop Grumman,
General Atomics, Boeing, etc.) are constantly working on various
compartmentalized projects such as hypersonic reconnaissance aircraft,
unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), unmanned combat aerial vehicles
(UCAVs), new generations of stealth and new radar systems. It is a
vital base for our national defense interests. I support the
necessity of such bases.
Q. Why do you not believe Bob Lazar's story on Area 51?
- Bob Lazar's paycheck stub for five days of work at the Test Site
amounted to no more than about $985. For an alleged, top-secret
scientist, this is almost unheard of.
I met Bob Lazar in 1990, visited him at his residence in Las Vegas and
was impressed with his apparent sincerity. To a layman, Lazar appears
to be well-versed in science, but his hypotheses have been proven
unworkable by scientists who debunked his theories and claims.
Q. What is your opinion on the story of toxic waste at Area 51?
- The toxic waste at Area 51 was at one time a problem. However, due
to the publicity it received, I believe that they have rectified that
problem. The recent satellite photos and satellite photo analyses seem
to indicate that the toxic waste burning has not taken place recently.
Q. Why did you abandon your conspiratorial views of Area 51?
- There simply isn't any substance to any conspiracy theories
regarding Area 51. I believe that it is our hard-earned tax dollars
that are in the programs at the base. I strongly support the existence
and need for such bases for our national defense interests.
Q. Why do you believe Area 51 was never a secret base?
- Area 51 conveniently became a "secret base" because of rumors. The
accidental creation of a "veil of secrecy" through rumors worked well
in the end, especially for the Air Force which needed a convenient
"cover story" to discourage any scrutiny of the base and its sensitive
R & D programs by the public. The "laughter curtain" became a
convenient veil for the Air Force's ongoing programs at the base.
Moreover, "Area 51" had never been an official name of the complex. It
was simply a Department of Energy's designation of that general section
next to the Nevada Test Site and the Air Force never used that
designation for their remote base. The Air Force never intended that
remote base to be a "top-secret" base. The government acknowledges the
base as "an operating base near Groom Lake". The base has always been
part of Detachment 3 of the Air Force Flight Test Center operated by
the Edwards Air Force Base in California.
Q. Do you believe there is anything strange at all going on in Dulce,
New Mexico including the possibility of an underground base (even if it
is not an alien base)?
- Nothing strange that I know of is going on in Dulce, New Mexico.
However, in the late seventies and early eighties, there were reports
of sightings of "UFOs" or lights in the sky over Dulce. I definitely
did read some newspaper reports on the sightings while I was living in
Arizona. But that does not mean that an "alien base" existed or
exists in Dulce. I was in Dulce in 1990 and talked to many residents
there and spoke with the Jircarilla Apache Indian Chief in Dulce. I
did not see any signs of any bases in or near Dulce.
Q. Could you give us your opinions on the End Times?
- We could be living in the End Times as suggested by the Bible
prophecies. However, I may be wrong on this. I could be off by years
on this, or I could be totally off. Nobody knows. The only sure
sign of the End Times, in my opinion, is when there will be a temporary
peace treaty signed in the Middle East (between Israel and the
Palestinians), which will usher in a three and a half-year temporary
period of peace. It has not happened yet. The End Times scenario
can involve a large-scale Middle East conflagration. It has not
happened yet. There has been 4 major Middle East wars involving Israel
so far: 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. The Iraqi War of 1990 did not
involve Israel. The current U.S. invasion of Iraq has not involved
Israel directly. When Israel gets directly involved int he next
Middle East War, then I would say that the time is close. However, so
far it has not happened yet.
Q. Do you see a New World Order coming into power and if so how?
- I do not see a New World Order clearly coming into power at this
moment. When the
European Union becomes totally united and becomes a formidable unit,
then perhaps that may signal the End Times. It has not happened yet.
Moreover, there has not been any major global catastrophe that would
precipitate the need for the creation of a global government yet.
Should a major global disaster or series of disasters or catastrophes
take place simultaneously, then it would be possible that a cry for a
total global government could lead the world into such a creation, but
as of this moment, we haven seen nothing of that sort. If the New
World Order indeed comes, definitely Satan incarnate (the
"Anti-Christ") will take power in the New World Order. But as I just
stated, I have not yet seen any signs of such a New World Order coming
Thank you so much for this interview. For more information, you can
visit my website:
THE CIVILIAN INTELLIGENCE NETWORK