On Sep 3, 2004, at 10:53 AM, kw wrote:
> Mr. Miner is correct. All that is required to render a currencly
> is general agreement among those who use it.
If that was all he said, he'd be correct. But I was addressing the
fact that so many people report being "compelled" to use FRNs. Having
to be compelled certainly does not indicate a "general agreement among
those who use it." I also dispute that FRNs were ever declared to be
"current as lawful money of account" ("currency"). FRNs are current
debt, but to call them "currency" is a stretch. To the uninitiated,
they DO very much LOOK LIKE what WAS "currency" until it was
> Among human societies,
> everything from metal tokens to seashells to cigarettes have been used
You mean, "as money" or as "money substitutes". Real money has certain
characteristics, which if it loses, it fails to BE "money". The word
"token" itself speaks of REPRESENTING, not BEING. A token is like a
stand-in in a movie production. It takes the place of something.
Seashells are still used (and purchase more lately!) and cigarettes
are still widely used, but they both fail as "money" because they
decompose and so cannot be a store of value.
> Today, we also use bits and bytes in the memory of bank computers
> along with pieces of special paper.
Your "we" does not include me, and I have all the rights of any
American, so let's get it straight that the "we" you speak of is at
least "the subset of those who will waive rights for one reason or
> No big deal, insofar as that goes.
Gotcha! No big deal...for YOU guys, The Pretenders!
> The fraud is not in the money system, the fraud is in the tax system.
As if that isn't part of the FRN system! You really do not see that
they are two ends of the same critter?
> It truly does enslave all working men but they don't tell you that,
> maintain the fraudulent fiction that we are free men.
No, they don't! Oh, you are right to a degree - they do not enslave
ALL working men (with me as an example), just the ones too dimwitted to
know it, or too clever not to take advantage of it. As you will find,
many men and women ENJOY being subject to a higher power and would
despair if left to fend for themselves. Many ENJOY "getting" something
for evidence of nothing. It's really a voluntary thing. The point is,
that those who do not wish to volunteer into slavery should not be
subjected to the lash for having made that choice. They should not be
forced to become creditors of socialism against their will and over
their objection. Today, some say that too many are victimized. I try
to point out it's a matter of the will power of each individual over
each and every second of their life. Nobody can help them, and waiting
for a concensus that never waives rights is like expecting Santa Claus
in July. Nope, right NOW is what couts, so will you leave the
accounting to others who wish to subjugate you? I will not. I
challenge absurd expectations and pretensions, such that (+1)=(-1). In
my math they add up to Zero. I prefer advancing in the positive
direction with rights rather than collect privilege tokens in the
equity jurisdiction. Don't get me wrong, a lot of people rake a lot of
tokens from the system. It does keep people occupied. I am free,
unoccupied, forever. It used to be a common condition of Americans but
today many find it a quaint reminder of yesteryear. I do realize that
there are a large number of wards of the state that cannot ever hope to
be free, and I hope they never realize what it is that they have lost.
> Generally speaking, we receive money in exchange for labor
No, generally speaking you receive a "check" (and not even a "cheque"!)
which you then "endorse" with your "signature" in the "equity
jurisdiction", and then you "accept" "legal tender for all debts" and
then proceed to "discharge" (not "pay") your own debts with them. you
could have asked for coinage and counted it out if you doubted their
accuracy or honesty. And you might end up with a roll of slugs,
mightn't you? How many times do you think that would happen to you?
Once is enough for most, and dishonest people will do dishonest things
like use counterfeit money. When a person accepts counterfeit, aren't
they still liable for the discharge of the debt that brought the
counterfeit to official attention? Yes, they are. A person who
accepts counterfeit is the loser. But some who know they have
counterfeit will go out and try to pass it off rather than take the
responsibility for its acceptance in the first place.
> and any
> appropriation of that money is a de-facto appropriation of labor -
It is the appropriation of labor WITHOUT "money" that makes it slavery,
BUT remember that voluntary slavery IS constitutional now!
I have proven that FRNs are unnecessary to live freely. So any slavery
based upon FRNs is totally voluntary, and thereby constitutional.
> Refusal to pay will result in the government attempting to starve you
> submission, or jail, or worse.
They'd like you to think that, and you saying it will scare others and
it might be more like a self-fullfilloing prophesy, but they really do
not have enough brutal enforcers to do the trick. They rely upon FEAR
more than anything else. They may be able to toast some Davidians or
snipe a few kids in the back for a few million FRNs in expenses, but
right now they are hard pressed to fulfill all their adventures
world-wide. In fact, some say that they are currently practicing
involuntary slavery by not releasing the soldiers within lawful time
limits of service.
1R$ people are themselves finding out about what goes on, and the lies
that are, if not told outright, permitted to form in the minds of the
victims through the use of FEAR. It reminds me of the fall of the old
Soviet Union. It was for quite a while after that that people among
"the masses" still feared the coming of the commissar. Well, it is
widely known that the emperor wears no clothes. There have been major
revelations in the major media at this point ("NOW it can be told....20
to 50 years too late!")
> Any government that utilizes any type of
> forced labor from non-criminal citizens, does not deserve to be
And yet these very same non-criminal citizens are the ones who DO
support it with their SIGNATURE on pieces of PAPER offered to them to
SIGN. Before "911" each and EVERY last one of them had signed to
accept their conditions, about which many whine and complain. Today,
no pretense of procedure is made and you need not sign anything to be
confined against your will. But aside from special national security
procedures one would think that if people didn't LIKE the conditions of
servitude they find themselves in, they should not have VOLUNTEERED
over their SIGNATURES. But they cannot be expected to think about that
now, can they?? No, because they are all dumbed down to where the
concept never enters their heads on any one day that "I have this right
and I'm going to exercise it and if necessary defend it".
> In fact, it should be swept away and replaced by a system that
> respects the
> liberty of free men, and thereby gains respect and the willing support
> free men.
Free men (and women) exist, coast to coast and border to border. They
don't unionize. They don't advertise. You seldom see them portrayed
on TV or in movies. But they do tend to communicate. And I hear a lot
of success stories, as well as a FEW horror stories. Every spring is
horror story season, in time for the Tax Day celebrations of servitude.
But look at the numbers, what? How many felony convictions? Out of
how many millions of people they admit no longer file (depending upon
whose numbers you accept, between 40 and 60 million). Who cares if it
was only 100,000? Do you NEED a consensus to defend your rights? Do
you even know what your rights are? Do most??
> Or, people can continue to fiddle and dither and enjoy the comforts of
> modern slave quarters, while massah grows ever richer on your labor.
> your choice..
*THAT* - I can agree with!! So, first Tobey has to wake up and smell
Can he distinguish an asset from a liability, or is that beyond his
ability at this point?
Will comfort or freedom drive his choice?