E6 ... I associate that, rightly or wrongly, with the impetus behind the British Israelites, a step-down Judaphilia striking to the heart of Christianity
Message 1 of 7
, Nov 15, 2011
On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:49 AM, Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
>>> but Hermeticism? This seems an idiosyncratic usage on your part.
>>> besides which, 'New Age Hermeticism' - isn't that basically trad Thelema? ;p
>> perhaps. I've been noticing references from Thelemic/Hermetic sources which
>> strike me as CYOR (Create Your Own Reality), OBGM (One Big God Mind),
>> and Neo-Neo-Platonic (Emanationism with the twist of 'You don't realize how
>> big your head is!' implications). when i ask about them those who are promoting
>> them don't always have ready answers to my challenges on them, such as how
>> they know essentialism is accurate, why they find it valuable to start with such
>> cosmologies in their working practices, etc.
> heh, my side of the pond (and mirrored in US occult publications)
> there is precious little recognition of Neoplatonist influence on
> Western magic. The historical facts are concealed behind the 'Crusty
> old myth', ie Kabbalah as *the* foundation of Western magic.
I associate that, rightly or wrongly, with the impetus behind the British Israelites,
a 'step-down' Judaphilia striking to the heart of Christianity since its inception.
> re your challenges, there is an apparent residue of essentialism in my
> own preferred models. That it is only apparent and superficial is
> shown by the following.
thanks for analyzing this.
> The 'perfect' or 'pre-existent' world (roughly the world of Forms) has
> a periodic *disruptive* effect on the 'manifest' world. It is thus
> productive of change rather than maintaining or restoring a supposed
> ideal status quo. This changes the character of things quite
> drastically, despite superficial resemblances to past emanationist
> So too I do not accept the 'One' as source of all and goal of some
> eventual return.
I don't mind it, i just like to know where it comes from, why it may be that
people have supposed its accuracy. received wisdom? fine. revelation?
great. resting on the shoulders of our Elders who knew better? fabulous.
the Buddhists go the opposite route in some instances and try to "disprove"
the notion of essentialism through the Dismantled Automotive Display, hoping
we will arrive with them at the simplistic analysis that if we cannot find an
object which is an essence then this must mean no essence exists. whatever.
conventional scientists sometimes do likewise and weigh or analyze to the
Nth degree what exists (as through subatomic partical accelerators, etc.)
in order to 'see inside' it.
> Note that Crowley also questioned this in an obscure
> passage quoted in the Motta Commentaries but omitted elsewhere.
> Rejection of the Pleroma is probably one of the most significant
> elements of Thelemic cosmology, if it were acknowledged and further
> investigated/followed up.
I cannot claim to understand this or upon what it may be based. I gather that
'the Pleroma' is a Gnostic supposition/theory. I would be happy to observe such a
creature. I wonder how that is accomplished.
>>> Seriously, I've pondered whether Thelema really breaks with
>>> Hermeticism and/or Neoplatonist magical philosophy to any significant
>>> degree for some time.
>> a tough nut to crack because you can approach it from sociological (and
>> therefore thought-trend-mapping) and traditional (exegetical founding in
>> critical thought) vectors. you and i have examined these variations many
>> times in exchanges here and elsewhere. the "really" part in your text
>> above leverages the result of this evaluation.
> ;D some leverage is probably necessary, given that the 'low Platonism'
> of Western magic is often not consciously acknowledged. It is thus
> fairly difficult to cure!
insofar as Thelema begins and ends with me, it does not associate to strict
philosophic vectors, but instead sets out a set of principles whereby a person
may obtain their desires through enduring and persistent effort (through a
variety of means, sometimes called 'magical').
insofar as Thelema becomes a cultic edifice endorsing doctrine i am unsure
that it has successfully separated out from Goldawnian roots.
>>> Aside from some more 'scientific' strands (whose
>>> attachment to and definition of magic gets a little sketchy) I don't
>>> think it does. Any hypothetical exception to this has its work cut
>>> out, though I've an inkling of one potential route.
>> I'll follow you and and see if i can come up with any alternatives. your
>> grounding in Hermetic basics is far more solid than my own, since i've
>> not touched a corpus in decades (thus my *or New Age* above, and
>> complicated by my interaction with those who attest to Hermetic style).
> My strategy is to reach behind/beneath the 'Alexandrian synthesis' to
> older strata of a very different character. This can only be partial,
> since for one thing we must adapt to new conditions. It must also be
> partly mythological rather than historical, but this is an acceptable
> and even potentially useful 'restriction'.
> For those who require a term for this, ...'pre-Orphic' .... a rigourous deepening of 'Urban Primitivism' ;D
something neo-shamanic has been my own preference. the primary issue
with this descriptor is its societally-integral function. I don't have one as such.
>>> Meanwhile the 'attach no philosophical validity' clause of Liber O is
>>> okay from a Chaos magic perspective,
presumably you refer to:
"2. In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.
"It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
Buddhists have the Kalama Sutra, which seems to emphasize "passive acceptance but, rather, constant questioning and personal testing to identify those truths which you are able to demonstrate" (Wiki! !LOL! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta ).
> ...Liber O is
> essentially a grimoire has apparently eluded many who value it. Over
> emphasis of doing things 'on the square' rather than 'in a circle'
> likely explains why.
in pursuit of material results as compared to seeking mystical transformation?
taking it too rigidly and not varying it to one's needs?
>>> but basically justifies ripping
>>> off the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn while sidestepping the big
>>> philosophical questions AC claimed were all answered by 'his'
beyond how they played out, i do not find that he was able to do this excepting for himself and those who are akin to his state of consciousness.
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