Hello to all, I am Dr. Coyote Hoodoo/Voodoo man. Good to be here and share. As Hoodoo man I come from a tradition of rootwork and conjuration as teacher,Message 1 of 5 , Oct 29, 2008View SourceHello to all,
I am Dr. Coyote Hoodoo/Voodoo man. Good to be here and share. As
Hoodoo man I come from a tradition of rootwork and conjuration as
teacher, student and guide. I have been working with the Yere Wolo
society for many years.
Agape, In the attempt to identify what Thelema is in a functional sense, many post-Crowleyan authors have struggled without much success to obtain a singleMessage 2 of 5 , Oct 30, 2008View SourceAgape,
In the attempt to identify what Thelema "is" in a
functional sense, many post-Crowleyan authors have
struggled without much success to obtain a single
overarching definition. In my opinion, this is because
Thelema straddles the fence between being an orthodox
religion and being identified as a 'spiritual
practice' or discipline.
From my view, I would have to assert that Thelema
cannot reside comfortably within singular objective
definitions and as such, it can be identified as both
a religion and a 'spiritual discipline'. Any
'spiritual system' is by definition going to contain
aspects of religion or will contain a set of axiomatic
platitudes which adherents may describe as 'beliefs'.
As far as Crowley and Thelema are concerned, his
'branch of Thelema' is most decidedly a religion based
on three extant factors:
1. The belief that the account of events given by
Crowley regarding the 'reception of Liber AL vel
Legis" are absolutely true. This belief in Al as a
'Divine Advent' matches those held by several other
religions regarding their own religious writings. This
tenet qualifies in a classical sense as a 'religious
2. The deities or characters in Liber Al are
worshipped by devotees identifying themselves as
Thelemites. Someone piped up recently and said that
worship and religion are unrelated or somesuch. I
could not disagree more, that seems patently ludicrous
to me, worship is a key aspect of ANY religion,
including Daoism and Bhuddism. The fact is belief in a
deity of any kind, and by belief I mean 'subscribed
faith in the actual existence and sure help of a or
the deity' then that's plainly religion.
3. Many Thelemites subscribe to a central liturgy and
central rite and/or rites such as Liber XV and other
related theurgical items penned by the Founder. That
too, from a classical, academic, and even a legal
sense identify it as a religion.
However, what provokes disqualifying remarks from
fierce devotees of Thelema as a religion is its
seemingly egalitarian approach to spiritual
development as being available to all and its sanction
of individuated, artistic, if not outright theatrical
interpretations of such development.
What has given way out of this is a quite paradoxical
collage of people 'working things in their own way'
which can sometimes lead to a great deal of solipsism
about one's own approach and a great deal of cynicism
when regarding another's. Our efforts to inject
empirical forms of study into theurgical work has
largely only led to a great deal of backbiting and
infighting about definitions and methods.
When examining this paradox in its ecclesiastical
sense, detailed scrutiny seems to reveal that Thelema,
for some, indeed does have an approach which can be
regarded as an 'orthodox religion'. The syllabus and
practices of the AA could be construed as such, and
even more so, the Liturgical practices of the OTO.
More thoroughly parsed from its various offshoots,
EGC/OTO could be said to contain an 'orthodox canon
and faith' apart from Thelema's nature as an 'applied
In sooth, Thelema could possibly be defined as an
pragmatic application of and a legitimate branch of
Gnosticism with trappings of Solar Teleology.
Unfortunately, it is these teleological claims
regarding spermophaghy and such which calls down
empirical criticism from outside quarters, it is the
same sort of analytical mind which confronts orthodox
axioms from within the 'confines of the church'.Rarely
does one actually 'get it' with regards to
individuation and creating an artistic tangent for
one's life outside of the bonds of institutionalism.
However this is just fine, as Frater Damon used to
say: "People have to work from where they are, not
from where they THINK they are.", I couldn't agree
more. Thelema often gives birth to radical
individualism, only to later have it regimented into a
particular aesthetic of black robes, grim faces and
somber, austere electronic music. :-P
Not that these gothic trappings are bad things in
themselves, however, any type of conformity, in my
view, is antithetical to the individuation process
which seems to be inherently, pathologically entwined
with the concept of Thelema and the concept of
'Magickal Attainment' . Classical Western Theurgy does
not, from my observations, seem to lend itself to
collectivist principles or thinking. Therefore, the
meta-message of the 'protestant/reformist' branches of
Thelema has been a rejection of orthodoxy based upon
the "Individuation Ideology' inherent in the 'applied
philosophy' of Thelema in one's day to day life.
Administrators of large groups like the OTO will often
find themselves frustrated by many of the more gifted
and excellent bucking the bridle when it comes to
doctrine and dogma and constantly questioning
'official policy' when it comes to technical matters.
Some individuals are always ready to absorb themselves
into an organization and extract much reward from
participating in a 'classical theurgy' devised by
someone else with some type of pedigree (historical or
otherwise) attached to it. In so much as they do that,
it is a religion, and it is difficult to mount a
credible case otherwise. On the other hand, others
will resolve to work an amalgam or collage of various
systems and achieve a profound yet highly subjective
result. These results are difficult to communicate
widely as a treatise or epistle, but are better served
being expressed as painting, artistic forms of fiction
writing and sequential media such as films or comics
or games. From what we can observe from the debate
process even on this list, argumentative, technical
discourse about such things does not seem to serve a
fruitful goal or purpose.
Yet, the beauty of the 'applied' philosophy of
Thelema, is that it allows room for each type of work,
and each type of individual. The hierarchy implied in
Thelemic cosmology is not, in my opinion based upon
anything else but ability and functionality, and that
is, my friends, where the rubber meets the road
between elitism and egalitarianism. Beyond the concept
of Thelema as a religion, in the context of
Illuminism, Thelema has a methodology which allows it
to adapt to the philosophical approaches of other
religions, moreover, it further allows the individual
to 'syncretize' aspects of other religions into one's
own secular thinking.
In Scientific Illuminism, the idea is to communicate
one's philosophy to another couched in the terms of
their religion. Thelema provides a 'semantic toolkit'
by which one may readily accomplish this end.
Its also quite probable and in fact likely that others
will continue to devise 'alternate orthodoxies' in
which to work with Crowley's mythos, and that these
groups will continue to squabble about the 'correct
approach'. The metaprogramming within Crowley's
writings will likely frustrate or stumblebum these
efforts every time.
In my opinion, one may define Thelema functionally for
oneself, but it is intractable to attempt to define it
for others or even worse, attempt to create a single
"Now hold on you two, new 'New Shimmer' is a floor
wax AND a dessert topping!"-Chevy Chase, (Old SNL Skit)
... hi Dr. Coyote, interesting background. this yahoogroup is for the discussion of whatever is meant by the term thelema (or Thelema ). check out ourMessage 3 of 5 , Oct 30, 2008View Source"bnzain" <bnzain@...>:
> I am Dr. Coyote Hoodoo/Voodoo man. Good to be here and share. Ashi Dr. Coyote,
> Hoodoo man I come from a tradition of rootwork and conjuration as
> teacher, student and guide. I have been working with the Yere Wolo
> society for many years.
interesting background. this yahoogroup is for the discussion of
whatever is meant by the term 'thelema' (or 'Thelema'). check out
our messages, files, and links if you haven't already and get an
idea what we're about, if you haven't one already. thanks for
your introduction. :)
Thelema Tom et All, Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. ... I very much enjoyed reading your thoughtfilled writing. Following along the same lineMessage 4 of 5 , Nov 1, 2008View SourceThelema Tom et All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
> From my view, I would have to assert thatI very much enjoyed reading your thoughtfilled
> Thelema cannot reside comfortably within
> singular objective definitions and as such,
> it can be identified as both a religion and
> a 'spiritual discipline'.
writing. Following along the same line of thinking;
it seems to me, Thelema might be classed as far
more of a religion than most "orthodox" religions,
in at least four very important ways - one as you
#1. Thelema does not confront orthodox axioms
from within the 'confines of the church'.
... in addition...
#2. Magical Practice has been discarded my most
religions and peoples, for some, reduced to head
banging against a brick wall, and various other
In this respect, Thelema falls more into the category
of "come-outer" religions, including "The Shakers",
snake handlers, fire-walkers - Shamanist, Paganists,
Voodoo-Hoodoo; roots firmly planted and supported
by deep Pillars of long ago disgraced Wisdom, the
"Knowledge". Most outrageously exciting to me is
the Fact, AL can be Proven using our 6 senses.
I relate this proof to proof as determined by the
Heintzenberg Bell Chamber experiments, not trying
to be fancy, of course I read it - EJ Gold thoroughly
impressed and informed me, and verified by other
sources many times since; again recently involving
new DNA studies.
The bell chamber or jar is a vacuum tube, wherein
an unseen or unknown element can be measured
by introducing a previously measured known element,
elements, into a tube containing the unknown invisible
substance; later measuring the change, if any, in "quality",
(shape, texture, color, quantity, size, weight, density,
odor, atomic and vibrational structures), the unknown
as had on the known, by comparing its before and
So in the same way, the Presence or Essence of Spirit
in our daily lives, ritualistic behavior and "Magickal
Attainment" of Spiritual Invokations can be measured
by determining the identity, quantity and quality of the
known elements we place in our jar, before and after
Love and hate have opposite detectable effects on the
body. This can be proven both scientifically and most
intimately by the individual; both having distinguishable
and measurable vibrational, electromagnetic and light
Evidence of Spirit or seemingly Miraculous Events or
Benefits following a Spiritual Worship can be measured
personally and scientifically, by detectable factors that
seem to appear out of nowhere, as effects of some
#3. Thelema's Theology is empowering, most orthodox
axioms are disempowering.
#4. Thelema is not only a Religion based on Faith, it's
an exact Science that incorporates Spirituality with a
systematic knowledge and application of Universal
Principles; the Law of Love, Law of Attraction, the
Science of Creation, Astrology, Mythology, geology,
Egyptology, linguistics, history, Alchemy, chemistry,
applied physics, quantum mechanics, mathematics,
physiology, psychology and biology... not excluding
a full party menu; party favours, special recipes &
dress, guessing games, songs, puzzles, tarot cards,
birds, marvelous Hosts & Hostess, and a flock of
>Absolutely, and evidenced by many other absolute
> As far as Crowley and Thelema are concerned,
> his 'branch of Thelema' is most decidedly a
> religion based on three extant factors:
> The belief that the account of events given by
> Crowley regarding the 'reception of Liber AL vel
> Legis" are absolutely true. This belief in Al as a
> 'Divine Advent' matches those held by several
> other religions regarding their own religious
> writings. This tenet qualifies in a classical
> sense as a 'religious belief'.
facts not found in most other "classical" religions.
#1. Aleister Crowley was a real person, living in our
time. Many knew him personally, wrote books about
him, his Work & implemented his Findings. Crowley's
entire life proved the validity of his Work, to himself
and others who followed his delineated Path, and
quite remarkably, and most appreciatively... people
#2. Crowley had a witness and participant in the
Event, a real living person. As far as I know, no one
who wrote about Jesus ever met Him or witnessed His
Event, except Mary and Peter and Judas, according to
the Dead Sea Scrolls, but no way to test authorship.
In fact it's said, historians living in that time and
area made no account of His Life or Death.
>I couldn't agree with you more.
> Someone piped up recently and said that worship
> and religion are unrelated or somesuch. I could not
> disagree more
>Speaking of pipes, pot smoking, in the classical sense
> worship is a key aspect of ANY religion,
is a religion to some; a worship central to a liturgy and
ritualistic practice. Watching television, sport's events
& athletes, the gods of men - Hollywood movie stars,
poker stars... politicians and political conventions -
accumulation of wealth is a religion, power and gold
the worships of many, and to some, even crime is
#3. Liber AL is Living Proof - but "Rarely does one
actually 'get it' with regards to individuation and
creating an artistic tangent for one's life".
Appears this might be "because", the Book is difficult
to understand and evidently they see no to reason to
try... seems very strange; for me it was Love at first
sight. I'm completely lost as to why?... why me?...
and why you?... and NOT them? Much of AL is easy
to grasp, once you get the drift - we've heard the
same stuff... beginning with the ol' snake, and
#4... science has recently proven, "every man and
every woman is a star"...
#5... politicians have proven, "fools of men" and "the
fools men adore are fools"...
#6... and proven, "There is no bond that can unite
the divided but love"... especially not war...
#7... and "Nothing", "no difference made among
you between any one thing & any other thing", is
homoiconic to most Eastern Religions...
#8... "and the dew of her light bathing his whole body
in a sweet smelling perfume of sweat... for certain, is
an excellent description of a Spirit encounter in
anyone's book... for certain I'd be bathing in sweat...
#9... "seek me only", nearly an impossible Path to abide,
although axiomatic, this isn't new either... a highly
verifiable Religion in It's Self, and self evidenced, and
attested to by millions, at least thousands, hundreds,
or a few of the holy cloistered...
... no point in dragging on, but the point is; proof of
AL is in the Book and everywhere self-evident.
>I love hearing what Damon said - if I'd been there I'd
> However this is just fine, as Frater Damon used to
> say: "People have to work from where they are, not
> from where they THINK they are".
have asked him - What if we work from where we want
to go?... entwined with the concept of Thelema and
the concept of 'Magickal Attainment'?
>I don't know exactly who the "we" is, but please don't
> From what we can observe from the debate
> process even on this list, argumentative, technical
> discourse about such things does not seem to serve
> a fruitful goal or purpose.
include me. From what I've observed, this list is no
different than a Heintzenberg Bell Chamber. The
fruitfulness of the goal or purpose can be measured
by comparing the quality and character of the fruits
introduced, to those produced, but in this laboratory,
the quality and character of the elements present in
the observer making the determination; the fruits of
the observer must also be determined before drawing
>In light of your opinion, you might want to reevaluate
> In my opinion, one may define Thelema functionally
> for oneself, but it is intractable to attempt to define
> it for others or even worse, attempt to create a single
> overarching definition.
your conclusions, "overarching definition", regarding
the fruitlessness of goals and purpose of others.
>It is beauteous and illuminous.
> Yet, the beauty of the 'applied' philosophy of Thelema,
> is that it allows room for each type of work, and each
> type of individual.
Love is the Law, Love under Will.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
... Hi Tom, I only had time to read up to the third reason why Crowley s branch of Thelema is a religion and, sorry, don t have the time to read theMessage 5 of 5 , Nov 2, 2008View Sourcetom chaudoin <taammuz@...> wrote:
> In the attempt to identify what Thelema "is" in a<snip>
> functional sense, many post-Crowleyan authors have
> struggled without much success to obtain a single
> overarching definition. In my opinion, this is because
> Thelema straddles the fence between being an orthodox
> religion and being identified as a 'spiritual
> practice' or discipline.
> From my view, I would have to assert that Thelema
> cannot reside comfortably within singular objective
> definitions and as such, it can be identified as both
> a religion and a 'spiritual discipline'. Any
> 'spiritual system' is by definition going to contain
> aspects of religion or will contain a set of axiomatic
> platitudes which adherents may describe as 'beliefs'.
> As far as Crowley and Thelema are concerned, his
> 'branch of Thelema' is most decidedly a religion based
> on three extant factors:
> 1. The belief that the account of events given by
> Crowley regarding the 'reception of Liber AL vel
> Legis" are absolutely true. This belief in Al as a
> 'Divine Advent' matches those held by several other
> religions regarding their own religious writings. This
> tenet qualifies in a classical sense as a 'religious
> 2. The deities or characters in Liber Al are
> worshipped by devotees identifying themselves as
> Thelemites. Someone piped up recently and said that
> worship and religion are unrelated or somesuch. I
> could not disagree more, that seems patently ludicrous
> to me, worship is a key aspect of ANY religion,
> including Daoism and Bhuddism. The fact is belief in a
> deity of any kind, and by belief I mean 'subscribed
> faith in the actual existence and sure help of a or
> the deity' then that's plainly religion.
> 3. Many Thelemites subscribe to a central liturgy and
> central rite and/or rites such as Liber XV and other
> related theurgical items penned by the Founder. That
> too, from a classical, academic, and even a legal
> sense identify it as a religion.
I only had time to read up to the third reason why Crowley's branch
of Thelema is a religion and, sorry, don't have the time to read the
rest at the moment.
I happen to believe that Crowley simply took from his expereinces
in/from thelema and then broadened his view/outlook to find the
limitlessness (ain, ain soph, ain soph ur, for those kabbalists out
there) of the practice. It's a known fact that when in trance, etc,
and we experience what we call "divine meaning or message" we have to
view it as a concept or a conceptualization. It is completely
INTERNAL and pressumed to be from an EXTERNAL SOURCE. I have always
been de-mistified about Crowley, in fact, in the mid-80s, I was
searching through my local bookstore, the occult bookstore, and found
several books by Uncle Al but I was still grapling with the
predjudice I had from researching his GD experienc with Mathers and
WEstcott so I simply shyed away eventhough the owner of the Bookstore
showed me huge volumes of THE EQUINOX hard back bound and very old
yet he would not let me read them. He would advocate other Crowley
books to me but I couldn't get passed my exprience with those bad
vibes from Mathers, et al, plus I was focusing on Jack Parsons
apprehending L.Ron Hubbard in the San Diego bay with $20,000.00 of
the Golden Dawn's treasury. Here I had no clue about Kenneth Grant.
Picked up the hard back version of A MAGICAL REVIVAL read a few lines
and said, "I'll take this one" which earned me a strong rebuke from
the store owner: "PUT THAT BOOK DOWN" and in my typical "damned to
bad luck attitude" stated "why it's a perfectly good book". To make a
long story short we eventually began debating THE BOOK OF LIES where
I clearly pointed out a line reading to the fact that "all the bros
of the A.A. are women". This is not divine revelation. This sounds
like one of Crowley's contrivances and manipulations.
Take away the under current of this supposed "divine revelation" from
THE BOOK OF THE LAW, Liber Al, and Crowley simply becomes just
another student of the mysteries. It took me at least 12-15 years
before I could read Crowley, mid to late 1990s, even then I really
didn't own a book that he wrote, just some stuff from GD members
writing their opinions.
Since 2004, armed with the view that Crowley is nothing more than one
of us, an ordinary person, I have run into MANY EDUCATED PEOPLE ON
THIS TOPIC and they have given me the imputus to do a tiny bit of
research on Crowley. Now I am completely predjudiced by his status as
a drug dependent and how easily he allowed himself to be completely
disarmed by the media of that time, the stratification of that time,
etc, how easily he completely stopped researching the Hindu and
Buddhist lines in favor of resting on his laurels from his debauchery
and small occult following.
Divine messages are extremely subtle and so well mixed in with the
normal life. If the student is not being conscious, not being
observant and knowing their situation, then the messages will fly
right over their head. I'm not advocating drug use but I am saying
that drug use does attune the mind better as a receiver of
supposed "divine messages". Like all things there is a limit and if
you read Abraham Maslow's "Religions, Values, and the Peak
Experience" I'm sure you'll see my point An unfortunate fact of
ingesting drugs is that brain cells cease to function and, like fat
cells, a body is given so many brain cells and that's it (I'm no
doctor so if I'm wrong here please correct me) Fat cells and Brain
cells are a finite number at birth. You can get rid of them but you
ain't getting any more, there are no second helpings.
Crowely, in his dark days and ages could only go so far in his
research. His short comings had him by the balls and he wasn't gonna
let them go to do battle with the status quo. I still recall the
amazement I had when I read a smattering of Crowley and find that
hidden in his long procedure of setting a stage, there were tiny bits
of truely genius peaking through all the defication. All he knew was
organized religion. He had no choice but to create a religion. The
problem with people like that is that they become deluded thinking
that they've gotta control EVERYTHING which is where each and every
one of the Brilliantly FAIL.
Just because Crowley is/was a failure for manifesting a religion and
trying to constrain that which cannot be constrained, does not mean
that we are to exclude him from Thelema. In fact Crowley is the only
reason I'm willing to read many Thelemic-type materials. There are
some authors I can't stand reading in the Thelemic pantheon of
authors but that's only because they get in way over their heads and
are forced to do nothing more than allow their delusions to shine
I hope I haven't taken up too much time. I know I'm late and making
too much noise so that the owners of the computer will hear me using
their computer and keeping them up at night.
[MODERATOR reformatted post and removed unnecessary quoted text. Future posts from this subscriber which are top-posted or which have a great deal of unnecessary quoted text may be deleted without comment.]