> There was an impetus among many of the males of the early
> Atlanta OTO to attract females who were considered easily
> manipulated or malleable via their respective addictions/
> and or involvement with the local sex trade and/or had
> childhood issues of abuse which rendered them with low
> self-esteem and easy targets to be unquestioning 'vessels'
> of the OTO spermo-gnostic theurgic format. Whether this
> has happened in other OTO bodies at large or in the
> current Atlanta OTO, leadership of OTO. I remember us
> being collectively warned by a local body master of OTO,
> (there have been several, I will let those in the know
> guess), saying "Don't break my vessels." His "VESSELS"!!??
> How bloody sexist can you get? Hopefully, it provides some
> illustration of the position women hold in the cosmology
> of the OTO.
I am not out of line to say that several of my partners
have sometimes quietly and at others very loudly eshewed
the products and social dimensions associated with
Aleister Crowley due to their perception that it
derived from sexist (or other bigotted) origins and
continue to retain aspects of this bigotry in its
operation(s). that said, i am an avowed Satanist,
and few of my partners have had a much better idea
of what Satanism is or what most Satanists are --
and i can't say that i differ much from their
evaluation of this (sub)culture after having taken
a great deal of time to come to know it in depth.
I live in California, where it is acceptable to review
conventional Christian (Protestant, Roman Catholic)
religion as hopelessly sexist. therefore if Thelemic
alternatives are developing i think it is not completely
unexpected that some portion of these would reflect the
bigotry of the surrounding culture in its activities
and values. the ideals being what they are, those that
affiliate with me are much more feminist, as it were,
because i am devoted to the Feminine and refute and
oppose that which sets one atop the other except out
of choice on both parts (i choose myself to set
myself below much more often than not, for example).
I have become aware that 1) most of the members of the
OTOs across the spectrum are comprised of men, that
2) most of the upper echelon of at least the (c)OTO
are males, and 3) several incidents of misuse of
social responsibility have been identified by the
(c)OTO and reprimanded, in some cases with expulsion.
this represents a 'mixed bag' of indicators.
> Thank you very much for your detailed response ,
> this is exactly what I was worried about.
> I have heard similar reports About the LA OTO from
> a former girlfriend of a member and I was, in part ,
> looking for either confirmation or denial of such
presumably there are all kinds of social results that
you may be able to find in association with these
secret societies (consider "The Black Lodge of Santa
Cruz" sometime). that they *are* secret should not
be forgotten, however much they may emerge into the
public eye by qualifying as non-profits as in the
case of the (c)OTO. part of that secrecy entails
the repression of (admittedly private) information
that surrounds scandal and misuse of power. to the
extent that there are no factions opposed to this
kind of abuse we may presume it could continue. it
is a beneficial sign, for example, that the (c)OTO
is actively seeking to install Revolutionaries in
its upper structure to compensate for this problem.
> As a woman I insist on being treated with respect ,
> I'm not a cup to go on your altar. Unless you don't
> mind me treating you like a wand and doing to same
> ..in reverse.
doing the same in reverse doesn't realistically right
the wrong done by unequal or bad-biology treatments.
the fundy religious purporting the false ideology
of the Homunculus (women as vessels for the carriage
of the sperm through to its completion in birth) or
the idea that "women are just wannabe men as regards
their soul development in their reincarnation"
should be seen for the sexism that they are,
regardless of the fact that they may be given so
much (spermo-gnostic) respect in the (sub)cultures
which entertain and promote them. if these are
doctrines of a cult, the cult is sexist as i see it.
> I may still go to this one meet other Thelemites
> but joining is looking like a bad Idea . It may be
> best to try to get A chapter of the OTOF out here
> after all.
what is the OTOF? meeting other people is fairly
different than constructing social events and
relationships of longstanding duration with them.
this is in part the value of the 'Minerval' degree
as offered at least by the (c)OTO: it allows one
a general gated evaluation period without being
seen as any kind of committed dedicant.
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE (that i am now formatting):
as usual, i recommend against ANY initiation
unless one is fully informed of the vows or
oaths which one is going to be asked to swear
in initiation rites/ordeals. if the order or
initiatory org won't make this plain, then
you'd better be very sure that they are
trustworthy. I wouldn't count on even friends
being completely aware of the detrimental
will-erosion they may be engaging by their
futile and stupid social/ritual agreements
which inevitably hamstring and divide their will.
secondarily, it is my opinion by serious reflection
on a number of organized efforts Thelemic and
otherwise that in general groups are VAMPIRIC of
individual will and so by those interested in
preserving the integrity of their will and their
power groups should be in general AVOIDED. notable
exceptions to this *can* be affiliation CLUBS that
serve as a networking device and have no more than
this influence on their members' private lives. as
my engagement of the (c)OTO has thusfar proceeded,
this is *precisely* the character that it has taken
in my life, with an added dimension of symbolic and
ritual concsiousness impingement, though many within
the (c)OTO have apparently allowed it to seriously
restrict their minds and wills in ways to which i
would never want to agree. that they may have done
so under DURESS is sometimes, to my way of thinking,
covered over in embarrassment, and the character of
their subjugation to vow/oath restraint is in part
hidden under cover of perceived vows of secrecy to
which i have never agreed and of which i have made
my superiors in the OTO very plainly aware. we've
been able to negotiate a suitable and ongoing
settlement on the issue because i am not in any
way trying to reveal the initiation rituals to
others and they are not attempting to (overly)
insist on my acceptance of their interpretation
of these same rites.
(copy this where you like,
properly attributed --333)
> THank you very much for your response ,
> I appreciate it greatly.
me too. this is turning into a much better thread
than the usual "my OTO is better than yours" kind
of capping to which we have occasionally be subjected.