Fascinating. An issue seeming particularly suited to my explorations.
"Touch Ecstasy" <touch_ecstasy@d...> wrote:
> Anyone care to proffer an opinion on the
> compatibility/incompatability of Thelemic and G.:.D.:. ritual work?
> I was investigating a nearby branch of the Temple of the G.:.D.:.
Under the Cicero governance? I assume this because of your inclusion
of the "Incorporated".
> a few years ago, and one of the rules of joining their Order was
> (is?) that you don't mix Thelemic and Golden Dawn workings, as this
> can lead to schizophrenia or something, according to their Order's
You don't want to confuse the Names and Images, no. This is partly
because the Thelemic systems are derived from the Golden Dawn system,
and represent a modification of that system, according to a certain
conceptual bias. I wouldn't say that mixing the two would necessarily
lead to any form of schizophrenia, although I'll admit there is the
possibility; doing so is far more likely to confuse the beginner, and
present a tangled and inconsistent cosmology for the more prepared
magician. It is possible to graft from one system to the other very
selectively, and according to a particular interpretation of each.
Actually, I find the perspective which allows for this functional
parity to be superior to those others I've seen expressed, however,
this perspective is not commonly found represented in either Golden
Dawn or Thelemic formulations. Such is their choice. Perhaps it will
> (I have asked another personal friend/mentor with more experience
> in these areas, who concurs that it isn't wise to mix the systems.)
One shouldn't arbitrarily mix and match, no. Just as one generally
shouldn't arbitrarily pick and choose a few names from a collection
of goddesses and arrange them randomly within ritual to get a "good
grasp" of "feminine energy"- if one wishes to obtain any practical
benefit from such an undertaking. The dangers of inappropriate
syncretism and all that.
> The paradox here is it seems to me Thelema is an "authentic
> religion" (as authentic as any!) and members of the G.:.D.:. (Inc.)
> are supposedly free to worship in affiliation with the religious
> tradition of their choice.
In any valid Golden Dawn formulation, the members are free to pursue
whatever individual creed they wish, and will not be exposed to
either covert or overt pressure to conform to a particular religious
creed by the leadership of that formulation. The utilization of
particular religious symbolism is endemic to the inner formulation of
any initiatory body, and cannot be criticized for its automatic
exclusion of any other particularly religious symbolism, except
insofar as it does so with unfraternal discrimination, and is found
to possess inconsistency in adherence to those philosophies espoused
within the bodies preceding and necessarily following it in
The "elect" can arise from within any religion.
Differences within philosophical position are another matter;
philosophy can be argued according to reason. If a student is
incapable of accepting a philosophical argument or "proof" of a
particular philosophical conclusion then that is their own individual
failure, and should not reflect badly upon any system or systemic
> Perhaps one could worship Nuit, Hadit, and Heru-Ra-Ha and never do a
> "Thelemic" ritual....(perhaps not).
One should be made aware that there are Thelemic rituals which are
simple modifications of the more traditional Golden Dawn rituals; the
Star Ruby particularly, for example. Whether a Golden Dawn student
makes use of the Star Ruby in their personal practice should be
irrelevant to any GD formulation. Whether the GD student undertakes
Thelemic rituals as a form of religious observance is likewise
utterly irrelevant. The only thing relevant to any GD formulation is
whether or not the student is progressing into a gradually more
enlightened comprehension of the GD system, and that is what it
exists to measure (in part), through the recognition of attainment by
Where you run into trouble is if you're not able to distinguish
between the two (in a sense, a form of schizophrenia), and where the
particular interpretations of one set of systemic philosophies will
begin to apparently conflict with the other set. At which point you
have two choices: abandon one set, and embrace the other to the
exclusion of all which disagree; or modify your own interpretations
in such a way as to allow a natural parity to arise between each and
The latter is my choice, and this choice is upheld by the
philosophies inherent to Hermeticism and the GD system.
> Incidentally, as far as I know, this G.:.D.:. Inc. claims lineal
> ties to Israel Regardie.
Most likely. Regardless of the fact that Francis himself made it
quite clear that he possessed no authority to grant affiliation or
lineage. He is generally respected within the tradition, despite his
occasionally unorthodox interpretations and methods, according to the
Stella Matutina variations.
> F.I.R. wrote extensively on G.:.D.:. and Thelema, and communicated
> late in life (according to G. Shuster) that it would be better
> to be a Satanic witch or something than a Xtian.
No actual adept would state such a thing, and one can only surmise
that he has been inappropriately paraphrased, if he actually made
such a remark at all.
> It seems to me the G.:.D.:. Inc. is trying to shed some of the
> darker overtones connected with their Order's history.....
If you want to call spurious allegations "dark overtones", then
certainly. But you may wish to verify your information before leaping
to conclusions of that sort.
There is no absolute operative incompatibility between the Golden
Dawn system and Thelema. There is only individual incompatibility
according to particular choice of interpretation, and overall lack of
To state otherwise is like saying that a man and his son are
psychically incompatible and incapable of agreement because they
gestated within different wombs (presumably!), have individual
brains, and prefer a different style of clothing, mannerisms,
activities, and perhaps even choice of religion. Not always a likely
compatibility, and these days, probably not too common. But not at