--- In email@example.com
, "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil"
> The woman who was killed because of what her husband was wearing -
> shirt was too short, reaching only to mid-thigh rather than as it
> have been. He was not reported to have been wearing rags - his
> too short which was looked on as slovenly workmanship by his wife.
Ah ha, yes that was it! Thank you! Funny, I had marked this in my
personal first draft to look up again because I knew I was off as to
the particulars. LOL
> Vlad was, as a child, taken as a royal hostage by the Turks in
> his father, the ruler of Wallachia at the time, would work for/with
> Turks in manners they approved. Thus, his influences from a very
> are from the Ottomans.
Yes, I am very aware of that.
The likelyhood that he would have worn salwar (the
> Turkish pants that your friend writes of) is rather high, though
> been found in graves or pictured in portraits so far as I know at
> time. While among the Turks, Vlad learned many ways of torture and
> execution not yet known to Wallachia and it's surrounding regions -
> where he learned of impaling people. He didn't invent it, he just
> famous for it. There is also the possibility that he would have
> back on some of the material culture of the Ottomans due to his
> imprisonment, making the use of salwar just as improbable.
Indeed. I go back and forth on this a lot. He was raised for many
years among the Turks so certainly they influenced him in many
regards. However, he also hated them and fought against them all his
life so the question is always; Did he adopt their fashions because
they were comfprtable and familiar or did he reject them utterly
because he hated them?
> Women from different lands tend to bring with them the fashion of
> home. In many instances, those fashions yield with time to
> preferences. For instance, the impact that Mary Hapsburg had on the
> of Hungary during her time as wife of Louis II was minimal.
> trying to base the fashion of a country off of the clothing of a
> another country is not generally accepted as reliable.
This is true however Beatrix DID have a good deal of influence on the
fashions of the Hungarian court. The paintings and busts I have seen
that date from after her marriage to Matthius show a VERY Italian
influence. However, again, this is moot as it's past the period I'm
> Pictures, hangings, fresco paintings, and embroideries of women
> wives of the rulers) usually depict them in garments similar to
> their male counterparts.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE point me to these references. My searches
have been VERY frustrating. If I could SEE these pics, hangings,
frescoes and embroideries of Eastern Europe of the 1450s and 1460s
you speak of it would go a LONG way towards helping me.
Long overgowns (kaftans) with buttons or closures
> up the front, sometimes also on the sleeves. The garments under
> mostly speculation as, again, finds for those are very limited. A
> garment that looks similar to a modern sundress with its fitted
> attached to a very full skirt, the bodice having six buttons in the
> has been found, but it is the only one of it's kind of which I know
Do you have an aproximate date for this garment? And a location???
> is the only garment to give any credence to your #4 point of women
> Wallachia wearing kirtles similar what all other women,
> German women, were wearing in Western Europe at this time). It is
> speculated that under this garment would have been something akin
> 'shift' or 'chemise' and over it would have been worn a more ornate
> 'kaftan' with it's closures in front and either long hanging
> (slitted at the elbow for the arm to go through)or short sleeves,
> the inner portion of the elbow to allow better movement. Under the
> type of kaftan is usually seen (on the arms) a garment that buttons
> wrist, or from the wrist to nearly the elbow - also usually in an
> fabric. Sometimes the outermost kaftan is lined with fur,
> is not.
Again, if you can tell me where you get this information it would be
> The houppeland and the kaftan have many major differences in
> fit, and look. The fashions of Eastern Europe were commented on by
> travelers as being different. When Hungarians visited the courts
> Western Europe as late as the 16th century, their different mode of
> was noted by those who saw them. You're making the dangerous
> that everyone wore the same thing in the East and West at this time.
No, not exactly. In fact I am trying to pin down what the
differences were. Was Eastern Europe more influenced by the Middle
East or by Central European fashions? Were they wearing something
altogether different from either area? Inquiring minds wanna know!
Yes, I am certain there are many differences in construction between
the houppelande and the kaftan. I've made both. But both are full,
long, voluminous garments that, though worn differently, have the
same general appearance. So which was being worn in Dracula's court?
Without concrete evidence both seem equally likely to me.
> As to the fabrics of the area, it is good to remember that portions
> Wallachia were along major trading routes between the East and
> the constant wars and change of rulers and the traveling merchants,
> likely that the fabrics used would more likely have been silks,
> furs, due to the ease of procurement for these things in such a
> well as for warmth in the cool castles and harsh winters of the
> Mountains. Linen certainly would have also been used, but probably
> the lower classes and for garments close to the skin. Many of the
> depicted in art and from grave digs are very similar to those of
Yes and I belive I touched on that. Perhaps I should add more detail.
Cotton would have most certainly been rare to nearly non-existent
> in Wallachia, as it was throughout Europe for the purpose of
Yep, touched on that too.
> The Germans had occupied a section of Wallachia from the 12th
> they were employed to help fend off the Turks. In the 13th
> Saxon community was granted the right to build a fortified town
> Wallachia - which was very nice since they had already done so.
LOL True! I know a good deal about the political climate of the
time and what happened when. Hence my interest in the first place.
What's lacking is a sure knowledge of the clothing!
> influence on the ruling class of Wallachia's clothing seems to have
> minimal from what we have of grave digs, portraits, and frescoes
> walls through the region.
So can you expand on the more obvious differences? Are there online
pics of these portraits and frescoes you refer to?
BTW, to this day, particularly in Brasov, there
> is still a strong Saxon presence and the tensions between them, the
> Hungarians, and the Wallachians are rather high. Saxon children are
> speaking German and attending German speaking schools....
> As for the headwear of the women, most depictions of them (again,
> wives of rulers) show high crowns worn with veils underneath. Hair
> seen. There are also pictures of some wider brimmed hat sorts of
> (similar to a Saxon style but lacking the feathers) and some with
> hats under the wide brimmed hats - those I have only as re-drawings
> think, so I'm not as sure of them as the crown with veil.
Even that would be nice to see!
Nearly all that
> I recall are wearing, under the hats, veils that fall nearly to
> breasts in length. Viewing the frescos and portraits, the styles
> headwear for men can be quite varied and the style in which Vlad is
> frequently shown (most publications use the same portrait of him)
> certainly not the only style worn by men of the region. Judging the
> in which men of an entire region based on the portraits of a single
> that time and region is also not recommended.
It would be similar to saying
> that all men in Hollywood in the 1970's were bald based on a
> Cojack. One can ascertain how that man dressed his hair, but not
> compatriots would have done.
Of course there were other styles and I would certainly not dispute
that. But also it is common to emulate your ruler.
> Pearls are seen on a number of garments for both men and women in
> as are more ornate (what we would today call) trims on the garments.
I reallllly want to see these frescoes you keep refering to. A
little more information on them please????
> Evidence for the time frame in which you are choosing to work is
> scarce and the publications one finds must be viewed with
> scrutiny due to political leanings of authors and the fondness that
> Rumanians seem to have for burning their past and beginning
> again. However, from written accounts of those who entertained
> dignitaries, frescos, embroideries, grave finds, and portraits all
> years shortly following (50 years or so) those you choose to study,
> extrapolations can be made which fall more in line with the
> Wallachians and Eastern Europeans in general dressed much
> Western Europe.
> Cu Drag,
> Domina Despina ot Brasov
Thank you very much for your observations and help. Please help me
even more by letting me know where you get your references from that
I may find and study them myself. Alas, otherwise they are not of
much use to me.