I don t think we are in basic disagreement on the point that the Dragon which is cast out of heaven is none other than Satan who is active upon the earth, butMessage 1 of 12 , Jan 19, 2011View SourceI don't think we are in basic disagreement on the point that the Dragon which is
cast out of heaven is none other than Satan who is active upon the earth, but
the basic difference is that in Hermas the beast is depicted as being subdued by
Hermas' faith whereas in Revelation the Beast is the active opponent of the
Jews, requiring a wearing of the number of the Beast upon the right hand (as
opposed to the phylacteries which were worn on the left hand) and effecting the
death of those who do not comply.
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 8:18:53 AM
Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Hermas and the Tribulation Beast
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil,
and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and
his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and
strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the
accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and
I think it is interesting that Satan is first cast to Earth, (Rev 9:1, 12:9,
20:2), and finally the lake of fire (Rev 20:10, Mat 25:41, 46).
In the OT we see a similar fate for the covering cherub (Eze 28:13-17) and
Lucifer (Isa 14:12-15). Satan was cursed in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:14-15).
The battle goes on daily in the lives of men ( 1 Pe 5:8, 2Ti 4:17; Rev 12:12).
In the Gospel Christ saw Satan cast to Earth (Luke 10:18), and Peter tells us
the angels that sinned are reserved for judgment (2 Pet 2:4). It is Christ who
has defeated Satan with the Cross (Col 1:13, 2:15) for those that accept (1 Cor
10:13, Eph 6:11-18).
That is the tribulation beast that would test Hermas' faith.
--- In email@example.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
> No, you are not attempting to understand these things as the early christians
> did.Â The view ofÂ Hermas regarding the beast is not that of the Apocalypse
> concerning the Beast.Â I have indicated that such is the case by highlighting
> points at which they diverge.Â Your continued attempt toÂ impose Hermas on the
> Apocalypse will not survive scrutiny.
> Â george
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Shepherd of Hermas (or Hermes) is a Christian literary work of the 1st or 2nd century. Origen attributed it to the biblical Hermas (Rom 16:14). IrenaeusMessage 1 of 12 , Nov 29, 2012View SourceThe Shepherd of Hermas (or Hermes) is a Christian literary work of the 1st or 2nd century. Origen attributed it to the biblical Hermas (Rom 16:14). Irenaeus quoted it as scripture. It is included in some copies of the New Testament (Sinaitic Codex) and is found in some early lists.
The book consists of five visions, twelve mandates, or commandments, and ten similitudes, or parables.
The first three visions do not concern the end times, but the building of the triumphant Church, and the possibility of repentance because the end is not yet. The fourth vision tells of the trial and tribulation that are to come upon men.
Hermas sees a representation of the tribulation that is to come.
>>I see the dust rising more and more, so that I imagined that it was something sent from God. But the sun now shone out a little, and, lo! I see a mighty beast like a whale, and out of its mouth fiery locusts proceeded. But the size of that beast was about a hundred feet, and it had a head like an urn."<<The beast has some obvious similarities to beasts found elsewhere in scripture, the Book of Revelation in particular.
The obscuration of the sun - 6:12, 8:12, 9:2, 16:8
Beast from the sea - 13:1
Locusts - 9:3, 9:7
Four colored head like an urn - Dead released from the sea - Rev 20:13, Four colors of horses ch 6:2-8, gold(?) altar and saints dressed in white 6:9-11, scarlet beast ch 17
It may be that the altar in chapter six is gold because prayers are mentioned, and the golden altar in 8:3-4 is associated the prayers of saints which are like incense. The pale color is missing while black and red are reversed in order, but in Revelation the previous judgments seem to be accumulated in the fourth horseman (6:8).
He receives an interpretation of the vision from a lady representing the church.
>>I asked her about the four colours which the beast had on his head. And she answered, and said to me, "Again you are inquisitive in regard to such matters." "Yea, Lady, said I, "make known to me what they are.""Listen," said she: "the black is the world in which we dwell: but the fiery and bloody points out that the world must perish through blood and fire: but the golden part are you who have escaped from this world. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue stedfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. <<
A notable difference between Hermas and Revelation is that in Hermas the beast has one head and no horns are mentioned, whereas most of the beasts mentioned later in Revelation have seven heads and ten horns, which are said to represent mountains and/or kings 17:9-12.
Instead of a discussion of horns and heads Hermas is given a series of commandments and spiritual parables. This reminds me of the discussion of Daniel's beasts and horns in the Epistle of Barnabas (ch 4). He immediately follows with a discussion of the spiritual covenant and the decalogue (ten commandments).
In Hermas the commandments are different in number than Barnabas or the horns in Revelation, but we are told directly they are commandments. The parables remind us that Jesus taught spiritual parables about the coming kingdom. The seven reminds us of the creation, and the new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15, Eph 2:15).
My conclusion is that end time beast in scripture is primarily about a spiritual battle for the human heart (faith). This was the interpretation understood by those that followed the apostles, and it became lost somewhere along the way. Perhaps there are other levels of interpretation, but I think the spiritual one is the most important.