Dear Sundeep, Please allow me to top-post this reply, as the body of both my original post and your replies make it a bit heavy to insert it at the beginningMessage 1 of 2 , May 19, 2005View SourceDear Sundeep,Please allow me to top-post this reply, as the body of both my original post and your replies make it a bit heavy to insert it at the beginning of my brief reply................................Thanks for your reply to my post on Spiritual Humanism.Allow me just to say that I also am well aware of all the arguments you have brought against my position. You may not be aware of it, but about three years ago I was the moderator of a group called Advaita Ashram. Here we endlessly discussed these very same isues, with me always taking the gradualist view, and the Advaitists the views you hold. This matter was never resolved.So, I decided to close the group and rather devote my time to writing my book. I no longer discuss the Advaitist view as proposed by yourself. For me this issue is closed I see it as a non-argument. My book stands as my own testament against the matters you raise. So, allow me to ask you: should you feel you want to pursue this matter, please first read my book. After that, if you have any further questions we could perhaps discuss matters further.Until then, my friend, be happy.Hand in hand,Moller.>>Moller:
What Spiritual Humanism proposes is that none of these qualities are
not already present as either realized or unrealized potential
within human nature. We are as much capable of Love and compassion,
Intelligence, Wholeness and Nonduality as what has been ascribed to
Curious who is this "we" that is being alluded to?>
These are profoundly human qualities, and once liberated from
their 'godliness' they could become manifest as nothing other than
human potential and human living reality.
Such a truly Humanistic view of the complete fulfillment of human
life serves our deep quest for spirituality in a practical and self-
evident way. Instead of starting our investigation from the point of
view of God as the Perfected One, we remain realistic and look at our
lives from the point of view of our suffering, discontentment,
unfreedom and confusion, and follow the Buddha's advice as suggested
in the four noble truths.
The Buddha admits that there is suffering in the world - which
means , to some or other degree we are all subject to, and have the
potential for, suffering. Having realized the depth and profound
subtlety of this aspect of our humanity, he then takes the cautious
route and advises us first of all to look at the causes of our
suffering, before we attempt to project answers to relieve us from
In other words, the Buddha takes the humanist view. He rejects all
metaphysics, including the separate self-sense and any notion of the
Great Other as nothing other than integrally part of our human
suffering and confusion, and instead proposes that we start afresh
and look at what we do to ourselves which brings about our
suffering. This is also the view of Spiritual Humanism which I
explore and describe in detail in my book: Spiritualtiy Without God.
Spiritual Humanism therefore proposes that before we project as some
kind of revealed truth all sorts of Ultimate notions about the nature
of human existence, we first accept our suffering as real,>>
Since suffering is a suffereing only to a sufferer,..............what
you are suggesting is that the "sufferer" is to be taken as real?>
>>and explore what it is we do that makes us suffer. And this
exploration can only take place in the context of our humanity. As I
said before, our suffering is not a Metaphysical problem. It is a
human problem, and needs to be looked at from a human perspective.
This is why self-observation and self-understanding form such
integral parts of the meditative and contemplative practices I
describe in my book. If unenlightened living is based on a series of
errors or false perceptions, (leading to the notion of illusion or
Maya) no movement towards clarity is possible until the
identification with these uninspected aspects of ourselves have been
fragmented and eradicated through insight, and other forms of inner
How about a suggestion Moller, that there is never a movement towards
clarity, irrespective of whatever work inner or outer that gets to be
That the so called movement to clarity,............even the state of
total clarity................. is yet another halo that the sense of
the entity creates around itself.>
Spiritual Humanism therefore makes it absolutely clear that work is
to be done.>>
Doing gets done, but is there a doer of the doing?
It is only to a sense of a doer,............ that doing is "work to
How we go about it is of crucial importance, because if we are not
cautious, our work may soon turn out to be nothing but a
strengthening of the very delusions we are attempting to gain insight
into and free ourselves from. Our task is to find ways which will
free our being from the main cause of suffering ie the separate self-
sense, (in all its various manifestations) without strengthening it.>>
That there is someone to be freed from suffering...........is the
very root of the sense of suffering.
That there is someoen to be freed from bondage, .............arises
from the premise that there is someone bonded.
And the very attempt to free, is the perpeuation of the apriori
assumption of the existential reality of the bondage.
Round and round the self-created, self-sustained, self-
And this quite possible. We need only to allow ourselves to be
sensitized to this possibility and not be intimidated by those who
are adamant that any work within the relative is fruitless since it
can only be from the disposition of the 'I' and therefore of
necessity counter productive.>>
Not really counter- productive, but really as effective as trying to
pick up yourself by your own boot-straps.
You may no doubt see Samadhic colours, enlightened stars floating
about,................ on account of having busted a blood vessel or
two, in the attempt.
But sooner ot later the absurdity of it..............hits.
And no doubt there are experts and graduate schools where techniques
and methodologies of handling boot-straps are taught.
Even successes of having hauled yourself up by your own
britches....... claimed and advocated.>
Once we are free from the God-notion, we have only our humanity to
fall back on.>>
And the notion of humanity itself?>
And in truth there is nothing suspect about human nature. In
potential, always ready to become our living reality, it is all
here. Nothing holds us back but the delusions we have about our
natural condition. And integrally part of these delusions are not
only our gods and saviours, but our uninspected attempts to deal with
the problems facing us - attempts we have come to know as our
religious and spiritual traditions. To be truly spiritual is to be
To be truly spiritual is the apperception that there being no such
distinction as "spiritual" and "human"....
....the very concept of the state of spirituality, either now, or yet-
.......is just another conceptualizing.
Did you know the term spiritual comes from the Latin root
Which means breathing.
The ethereal connotations are mere add-ons.>
... snip ... snip And a friend of mine emailed me and showed how she supported the views she sees one of these fine gentlemen taking, and another friend relaysMessage 1 of 2 , May 19, 2005View Source--- In firstname.lastname@example.org,
"de la rouviere" <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
> Dear Sundeep,snip
>> Sandeep wrote:snip
And a friend of mine emailed me and showed how she
supported the views she sees one of these fine
gentlemen taking, and another friend relays to me
how the same person misses the mark, and the other
one is right on. So, what is one to think?
And Kir Li Molari answers: "No-thing!":-)
It reminds me of a great movie I just saw this weekend
on cable...I Heart Huckabees. You say potatoes and
I say tater tots. Sudden awareness verses gradual
understanding. And of course the popular "Gradual
Sudden Awareness" is the punch line. Well, I know that
both of my friends "Know" what they speak of, and I also
know that Sandeep is as good as it gets, and so far
so good for Moller as well. As for me, I see it as quite
a blessing to have such thought provoking and thought
stopping meals presented to feed our spiritual hunger!
Thanks to all!
Peace and blessings,