In a message dated 11/28/2004 12:14:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jperaza@... writes:
I have noticed the Douay Version 41:16 say's 'When he shall raise him
up, the angels shall fear, and being affrighted shall purify
themselves.' I find this in no other translation, and I've looked in
4-5. I realize the many arguments against the Douay but this
particular passage has caught my attention as I do not see how
a 'creature' could cause angels to "purify themselves". KJV 41:25
comes the closest saying 'they purify themselves'. Again, several
versions omit this altogether. I'd like to know if anyone has
insight into the original
Well, first of all, and you may have realized this, as you are comparing the KJV 41:25, there is something really peculiar going on with the numbering here, and so you have to compare 41:25 in the English versions to 41:16 in Douay.
The Hebrew (which seems to be 41:17, if BibleWorks is correct here) seems to say roughly, "When he raises himself up, the ELIM (gods, or mighty ones--I'm not surprised that the vulgate translated this as angels, but I'm also not surprised to see that most English translations, including KJV chose to assume we are probably talking about mighty people here. Tony explained this one in his post.) are afraid, because of breaking they purify themselves." They're so scared that it makes them repent? Or (and I'm going way out on a limb here--and my level of expertise is not much greater than yours) could it possibly mean that they get so scared that all the impurities within them get flushed out. In other words, I am guessing that this could possibly be a euphemism for "they wet themselves." I recognize here that this would have precisely the opposite effect of purification, but given the ability to speak euphemistically such that "cursing" can be called "blessing" (as in the Ahab story 1Kings 21:10--in the Hebrew, Naboth is literally accused of blessing God and the King, but the context makes it clear he is being accused of blasphemy), I wouldn't be surprised to see such a euphemism for peeing in one's pants. Just a thought. It is obviously a difficult verse.
The LXX here talks about animals that jump on the earth being scared. I haven't tried to sort that one out, but to do it right, you have to try to translate what the LXX says back in to Hebrew, and see whether there is a possibility that the LXX is dealing with an earlier text, and the Hebrew text is corrupted at this point. Or figure out how else the LXX might have come to this translation, which is so different from the Hebrew we currently have.
For example, in
41:16, in speaking of the scales, God say's, "One is so near to
another that no air can come between them." The translation for air
here (if I am translating correctly with Strongs) should
be 'spirit'. BIG difference. Granted, the Book of Job is Poetic,
but I'm wondering if at least *this* portion, with God speaking, is
something more significant...that has and is being ignored. I'd
really like some direction into further research.
Strongs is simplistic. Ruah is the word for "spirit", but it also means "wind" and "breath". It simply makes a whole lot more sense here to think that we're talking about scales that don't let the wind or air in than to think that the scales keep the spirit out. The modern translators are not being poetic here (translating this as spirit here would be a huge poetic reach). Instead, they are using common sense to determine which of the several possible meanings that the word can have is appropriate to this setting. It is as if you were translating the sentence "Jackie had a ball." That might be talking about a dance, but if you were in the middle of talking about a baseball game, it is much more likely that we're talking about a hard round object (and it is possible that we are talking about having a good time).
I'm sure there are folks here who can speak with much more expertise if they have the time.
Best wishes in your studies.