... Gee, Matt. If I didn t know you better, I d be inclined to think that you are claiming that I m lacking in what you ve granted to Leornard. Be that as itMessage 1 of 42 , Feb 17, 2004View SourceMatthew Estrada wrote:
> Maluflen@... wrote:Gee, Matt. If I didn't know you better, I'd be inclined to think that you are claiming that I'm lacking in what you've granted to Leornard.
> In a message dated 2/17/2004 6:46:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, matt_estrada@... writes:
> > We have heard Jeffrey B. Gibson's opinion on the matter. Now I would be interested in hearing the opinion of others, as I know I cannot win everyone. The point that I am presently trying to establish is whether or not John intentionally alluded to Gen 41:55, I Kings 17:18 and Amos 8:11-12, attempting to communicate a "spiritual famine" having existed immediately prior to Jesus' Incarnation. I ask from others that you look objectively at the evidence that I have presented and give your opinion. Thank you.>>
> Matthew, I have read both your presentation and Jeffrey's response and am inclined to side with your position. Please allow me, however, to reassess my position after having had time to re-read the OT passages you cite as background for Jn 2, in Greek, of course, and the text of Jn 2, before making a final judgment on the matter. I suspect, even before reading the material, however, that I would be able to strengthen your case (on the basis of textual and linguistic data) beyond the arguments you already gave. I'll get back to you when I have had a chance to do the work. In the meantime, my initial impression of Jeffrey's response is that, though typical of the acquired mental toughness that comes from rigorous exegetical training, it is needlessly ungenerous, and certainly not a decisive rebuttal of your position. My experience has been, in general, that there are more, rather than fewer, Old Testament allusions in the Gospel stories than are generally recognized by scholars. Take,
> for instance, the brilliant article in BZ, of only a few years ago, in which it was shown for the first time ever that Pilate's famous "ecce homo" (IDOU hO ANTHWPOS) in Jn 17 is an allusion to (indeed a citation of!) a text in 1 Sam.
> Leonard Maluf
> Thank you, Leonard, for your response, your openness to new possibilities, and to your objectivity.
Be that as it may, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to give us your criteria for determining when someone's judgment of your claims is and is not grounded in objectivity. Is what marks a person out as possessing objectivity the fact that agree with you? Or is it something else?
I'd also be grateful to know how you determine when a biblical reference to a lack of a foodstuff is and is not a "famine situation", especially in the light of the that idea, prominent in the NT as well as in the Hebrew scriptures, that "famines" are expressions of Yahweh's judgments against his people for their unfaithfulness. Do all references in the NT , or for that matter, in the Hebrew Scriptures as well, a lack of a foodstuff connote these "famines"? Is the lack of food mentioned in the Synoptic feeding stories an indication that those who will be fed by Jesus are experiencing "famine" and are in a "famine situation" similar to what Amos says the unjust in Judah will experience ? Is the understanding of its nature and cause and its reversal the same as that of the "famine situations" spoken of in Amos and reputedly in 1 Kings? Are there any mentions in the Biblical witness of situations where there is a lack of food and/or where people run out of foodstuffs that are not
thought of as famines?
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
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Roberta Allen wrote: I While we are on the subject of biblical allusions do you think it is possible that revealed his glory inMessage 42 of 42 , Feb 19, 2004View SourceRoberta Allen <roberta.allen@...> wrote:
While we are on the subject of biblical allusions do you think it is
possible that 'revealed' his glory in 2.11 is an allusion to Jer.33.6.
The Greek word chosen occurs only once in the whole of the LXX
appropriately at Jer 33.6 in the section which details the new covenant
Behold I will bring to it health and healing, and I will heal them and
reveal to them abundance of prosperity and security (shalom and emeth)
In a typical midrash key words are used to connect disparate verses from
the scriptures. When Elijah performs the final miracle for the woman she
says "I know the word of the Lord in your mouth is truth" 1 Kings 17.24.
The connection between Jer. 33.6 and the Elijah story is 'healing' and
perhaps more importantly what is revealed by it represented by the key
Even though I had not considered it before, after glancing over the text, I think it is possible. Besides the points you state above, I argue that John used Ex 2 as one of his source materials. In parallel # 9 I state:
9) Exodus 2:23-25 states: "During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God. God heard their groaning and he remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob. So God looked on the Israelites and was concerned about them." The "God remembering His covenant" motif that is found in our Exodus story is also implied in our John 2 Cana miracle story. After 400 years of silence, as prophesied by Amos in 8:11-12, we are told by the author of the gospel of John that the Word breaks the silence by becoming flesh. The people of Israel are again in bondage, both to the Romans and to Sin, and they are "staggering from sea to sea and wander from north to east, searching for the word of the Lord, but they will not find it", until God "hears their groaning and remembers His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob". It is then, and only then, that the Word
becomes flesh, that the hour has arrived for the Son of God to die on the cross and rise from the grave, and thus change the "water"/the time of the Law and the Prophets into "wine"/the time of the Holy Spirit so that all may be satisfied- that is, all who will believe in Him.
Since Jer 33 is a text that details the new covenant, and also has the "bride and bridegroom" imagery (Jer 33:11) as a sign of the messianic days, I think, as you state, that John also could have been alluding to this text in his "midrashic allegory".
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