... of ... lines ... of ... A close look at lines 353-354 reveals some striking features. First, those lines contain 50 letters - and I m on the lookout forMessage 1 of 5 , Nov 14, 2002View Source[Frank McCoy]:
> I suggest that the 24 blocks should be divided, rather, into one divisionof
> units 1-8 and a second division of units 9-24.lines
> This, much more equitably, divides GThomas itself roughly in two. So,
> the first division of 1-8 contains just a little more than half of the
> (354 out of 668) and just a little less than half of the sayings (54 outof
> 114).A close look at lines 353-354 reveals some striking features. First, those
lines contain 50 letters - and I'm on the lookout for groups of 50 or 100
letters. Secondly, the four-letter Coptic word that dangles over onto line
353 from the saying above (#53) is superfluous to that saying ("true
circumcision in spirit has found profit / all-of-it"). Ironically, saying 53
talks about "their father" pulling "them" out of "their mother" _already_
circumcized, if that would be beneficial to "them", and the separation of
"all-of-it" from saying 53 _would_ seem to constitute some kind of
"circumcision" of it. Thirdly, this two-liner is "led by" a "male" (i.e., a
masculine-gendered syntactical element), namely "all-of-it", where the "it"
is masculine. Fourthly, the two-liner ends with the phrase
"the-kingdom-of-the-heavens", which connects with line 668, suggesting that
it's intended to go (back) into that "heaven". Perhaps, then, I was too
hasty to try to complete the second heaven by moving lines 69-70, which
occur in the 193 lines of the first section (pages 32-37). If, instead, we
move lines 353-354 (as a case of a female being led by a male into the
heavens), then the second section (pages 38-44) comes down from a total of
242 lines to a nice even 240 lines - which is the kind of "perfection" we're
aiming for. Finally, I might point out that lines 353-354 contain the 50th
occurrence of the name 'Jesus' in the text (note that in my revised version
of the interlinear, I've numbered the 102 occurrences of 'IS'). Again, the
magic number 50. The confluence of such syntactical "signs" must be
considered important to the seeker (which is now us).
> ... I agree that there must be some significance to the two blank pages.Yes, but the single errant line (571) must evidently be made to cross over
> But, I doubt that they relate to the blocks. If they did, then the
> expectation is that they would divide one block from another block.
> However, they, rather, divide a block into two segments.
the "waters" of the two blank pages, resulting in a (first) "perfect heaven"
of 100 lines on pages 46-48. This "crossing over" brings the size of the
second heaven up to 98 lines. With the addition of two more lines
(353-354?), it, too, becomes 100 lines. This leaves only the first section
(193 lines) to be "made perfect".
... From: Grondin To: Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:10 PM Subject: [GTh] The Heavens ... cosmos, ...Message 1 of 5 , Jan 23, 2005View Source
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:10 PM
Subject: [GTh] The Heavens
> The text of Coptic GThom represents the geographic structure of the
> as the Barbeloites believed it to be.
A simple assertion won't do. We aren't even told what the Barbeloite
geographic structure of the cosmos looked like! Further, absolutely no
evidence is produced to demonstrate that the text of Coptic GThom represents
>It's a puzzle already partially
> completed for the reader, if he or she can spot the structure under the
> chaotic elements. At the top of page 46 is the famous "divider" saying,
> which was the one that tipped me off some 14 years ago to this astonishing
> theory about the nature of the Coptic Thomas, when I simply could not
> imagine any reason for the author to have Jesus turn to his disciples to
> confirm what he had just said, namely that he was not a divider. In fact,
> though Jesus himself may not have been thought to be a divider, this
> is - for it basically divides the "earth" from the "heavens". It begins on
> line 471, and it's the beginning of the 13th of 24 blocks, which means
> the text is basically divided into two groups of 12 blocks each, the
> much larger one, occupying 470 lines, the second occupying 198 lines.
That this saying appears to divide two groups of 12 blocks each is
However, to simply assert that the first group represents the earth and that
second group represents the heavens won't do. Evidence needs to be produced
to validate this assertion, yet none is!
In any event, the apparently real existence of two groups of 12 blocks each
indicates that, as respects 24, 12x2, rather than 6x4, is the governing
factor in the mind of the scribe. This, in turn, indicates that 12 was a
more significant number for the scribe than the "perfect" number six. So,
this raises yet more questions about the thesis, in the very first post,
that perfect numbers like 6 and 28 (rather than, say, 7 and 12) are of
primary importance to the scribe.
>But the second part of the text is further divided into two parts - the
> occupying 101 lines down to the bottom of page 48, the second (after a gap
> of two blank pages) occupying 97 lines from 572 to 668. The last line on
> page 48, however, is the first line of a block that continues (after the
> blank pages) onto the top of page 49. If that line is moved to the top of
> page 49, then we have two "heavens" - one of 100 lines (471-570) and the
> second of 98 lines (571-668). Why do I call these "heavens". Because line
> 668 says that they are. This last line contains a single word that's
> separable from saying 114 - a Coptic word meaning "of the heavens". That
> word is separable from 114, because the immediately preceding text makes
> sense without it: "Any female who makes herself male will enter the
> kingdom." Oh - and by the way - that word is 6 letters - a "perfect" word.
What we have in this case are two sub-groups, not two heavens. I didn't buy
the flat assertion that the two groups represent earth and the heavens
because absolutely no evidence has been produced to validate it. So, I
don't buy the further flat assertion that these two sub-groups represent two
However, I will grant that the two blank pages likely represent a
significant and deliberate break on the part of the scribe.
What I find difficult to accept is (1) that the next page with writing on it
is page 49--for then the two blank pages aren't numbered, and (2) that the
scribe, despite putting a line on the bottom of page 48, yet wants us to
move it to page 49 (or should I say 51?). The second proposition is an
extra-ordinary claim, so it needs extra-ordinary proof in order to be
The phrase "kingdom of the heavens" is perfectly proper, so why claim that
only "kingdom" is meant and that "of the heavens" refers to the two
divisions created by the two blank pages? Just because "of the heavens" is
a Coptic word occurring on a separate line is hardly sufficient reason for
thinking that it refers to the two divisions divided by the two blank pages
rather than that it is meant to be a modifier of "kingdom". This is an
extra-ordinary claim, so it needs extra-ordinary proof, but this is not what
That the last word ontains six letters is of potential significance only if
it has been already demonstrated that perfect numbers are the cat's meow for
the scribe, but this has not yet been demonstrated to be the case. For
example, 12 seems to be of more importance to the scribe than 6.
> So the geographic map of the cosmos is inverted in GThom - the heavens are
> at the bottom, and the earth is toward the top.
Since this map has been constructed on the basis of unsupported and unproven
assertions, this is not surprising. To me, this is an indication that the
whole idea that the two groups represent earth and the heavens is incorrect.
I'd be more impressed if these unsupported assertions led to a map of the
cosmos that has the heavens over the earth.
>The "heaven" closest the
> earth is composed of 2 blocks of 100 lines total. The heaven furthest from
> the earth is composed of 10 blocks of 98 lines total. The evident first
> for the puzzle-solver ("where the beginning is, there the end will be") is
> to make the highest heaven the same size as the intermediate heaven (in
> conformity with the instructions in saying 22 about how to enter the
> kingdom - i.e, make the upper like the lower, etc).
This is not at all evident to me. Why *must* the two heavens be of the same
size? 22 also refers to the outside and the inside. Why, then, shouldn't
the two sub-groups represent the outside of a person (i.e., the body/flesh)
and the inside of a person (i.e., the spirit and soul)?
> would have to move two complete lines and part of a third (to fill in the
> line containing the single word "of the heavens") from the first part of
> puzzle (lines 1-470) to the end of page 51. Even stronger, however, the
> syntax and/or semantics of the additional lines should have something to
> with a "female" making herself "male" (and hence eligible for entry into
> "kingdom of the heavens" that occupies this portion of the text).
> Surprisingly, the Apocryphon of John tells us how to do that. And that's
> I'll say for now, since I'm getting no feedback, and I'm not sure anyone
> paying any attention.
In the original post, the Barbeloite cosmology is said to be a
"heaven-earth-underworld cosmology." In this post, though, it is envisoned
to be a heaven, second heaven, earth cosmology. The failure to define the
Barbeloite cosmology comes home to roost here. Which is the correct
Barbeloite cosmology? How can anyone be expected to pay any attention to
what is being said, when a fundamental definition is altered from one post
to another one without explanation?
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