--- In email@example.com
, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
> Hi Dirk,
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
> > the Hermun-duri to Thuringi shift seems to be completely rejected
> > nowadays. Its main support rested on the perception that the two
> > people lived in the same region. Yet, as Springer shows in the
> > earlier cited article that is not really the case. In addition,
> > temporal gap between Hermunduri and the Thyringi is too big as
> > Finally, as you have mentioned the shift from d to th is strange.
> > Grahn-Hoek argues that all that is needed to get from Theruingi to
> > Theuringi is a metathesis of e and u. She mentioned that there are
> > other expamples of such switches. Interestingly, a Thuringian gau
> > (pagus), called the Dyringo/Duringo in low German was also
> > as Duervingo and Durvinge in medieval documents. The switch from
> > to D in low German occured around the 10th/11th century. Before
> > the name would have been Thuervingo and Thurvinge, which is
> > basically analogue to Thyrvinge and remarkably close to T(h)
> > eruingi/Terwingi. Another, 11th century name form of Thuringia is
> > Dvoringen.
> I seem to get lost in medieval spellings of the name, so I better
> ask for help. This /th-/ im Anlaut of the name Thuringi (Middle
> Age), Thüringer (present day) did it once reflect the
> pronunciation [þ] or was it just an "ornamental" way to write [t],
> as it is now?
> If it was a [þ], then the change duri > *þuring- is really
> unexplainable. But then, *Þuringi would yield *Duringi both in High
> and Low German. And, what is most important, *Þuringi could not
> evolve from Teruingi, for whatever medieval spellings were, it was
> Gothic *Tairwiggos, with a [t], not [þ]. The same is valid for a
> name derived from Tyras.
it is probably not clear if Th- denoted þ in Thuringi. However,
Teruingi is also rendered as Therouingi with Greek theta, just as
Thueringi. Yet, both names were of course also rendered with T- in
Anlaut, i.e. Turingi/Tyringi and Teruingi.
> Now, if we accept it was an Anlaut-[t] in Thuringi, then this form
> could probably be explained as a High German shift of [d] > [t],
> the traditional etymology duri > Thuringi probably holds so far.
> For which Low German Duringi supply additional evidence. But in
> case also, it proves impossible to derive it directly from
> It's a good time to ask whether Thuringian is above or below the
> Benrather Linie (I cannot grasp my atlas right now)? If it was
> hochdeutsch, subject to the Second Sound Shift, it would have made
> Go. *Tairwiggos rather *Zehringer or the like.
Thuringian is below the Benrather Linie.
> But this name seems to neglect phonetic regularities. So the option
> Thuringi < (somehow) Teruingi or (still more plausible
> Tyringi shouldn't probably be excluded.
> > Also, note that Odovacer was called rex Thorcilingorum. It was
> > usually assumed that the Thorcilingi were either an otherwise
> > unknown tribe or the name of the dynasty. Only the Greek Malchos
> > fragment solves the riddle. This source states that the father of
> > Onulfus, the brother of Odovacer was a Thuringian on his father's
> > side and a Scirian on his mothers side. Hence, Thorcilingorum
> > probably have to be emendated to Thoringorum. This emendation was
> > recently supported by Castritius and Pohl. The example shows that
> > strange scribal errors did occur, especially with the name of the
> > Thuringians. In fact, Grahn-Hoek shows several examples were
> > confused the names Teruingi and Teuringi.
> I thought once that Torcilingi could be a vestige of some (proto-)
> Turkic presence in Europe in the Migration period (through the
> Huns?). Go. *Taurkiliggos would mean "descendants of *Taurkeis,
> Turks" (cf. ON Tyrkir).
The common thinking now seems to be that rex Thorcilingorum should be
corrected to rex Thoringorum. The fact that Odovaker's father was a
Thuringian would make it more plausible that Odovaker was called king
of the Thuringians rather than king of the Turks. Also, such Turks
are not mentioned by any other source.
> > Another interesting line of argument pertains to the rex Gothorum
> > Radagaisus. Radagaisus attacked Italy in 406 with a large army,
> > which was composed of different groups and led by two other
> > princes. Zosimus stated that this army had come from the region
> > between Danube and Rhine. The land between Danube and Rhine is
> > exactly how the later Thuringian kingdom is described. Grahn-Hoek
> > suggests that Radagaisus was a successor of Athanaric as leader of
> > the remnants of the Athanaric-Terwingi who had chosen not to join
> > Fritigern and Alaviv on Roman territory. A 6th century Thuringian-
> > Warnian prince had the name Radagais/Radagis, while two princesses
> > were called Rada-gunde, and one prince had the name Rada-ulf and
> > Arta-gais. In other words, the name components of Radagaisus were
> > quite prevalent in the Thuringian royal family which could point
> > a family link. Radagaisus is often believed to be a Ostrogoths,
> > because the sources state that he was a pagan, while the Visigoths
> > were Christians. Yet, he is not mentioned in the Ostrogothic Amal
> > geneology and as a leader of the anti-Roman and anti-Christian
> > Athanaric Goths he would have been a pagan.
> > Cheers,
> > Dirk