Greetings, This has become a very confusing thread. Oscar wrote:Message 1 of 15 , Aug 1, 2004View SourceGreetings,
This has become a very confusing thread.
<I know its of gothic origins, manie. i see alot of names in spain of
<gothic origins.i go there every month.
Oscar, how can you say (YOU KNOW) it is of Gothic origin? Just because
someone goes to Spain every month and sees many Gothic names does not
make their assertions correct.
I wonder about your spelling, perhaps you meant - Castelldefels? I
have never seen it spelled (castlefels), nor can I find a city (thus
spelled) on a map of Spain?
Even so, Francisc and Mannie are correct (castell; castellum,
castilla; castillo) are all derived from the Latin << castellum >>. It
is NOT a Germanic/Gothic word at all. BTW the city of "Castelldefells"
is (I believe) in Catalonia and I spell it here as it would be in the
Nonetheless, the area known as Castilla (Castile) was the area most
densely settled by the Visigoths. I have heard say that about 1 - 2%
of toponyms in this area and to the North are of Germanic origin,
however, I have never seen a list or a study on the latter.
There are two toponyms that pertain to Germanic groups in Spain. One
such is Catalonia, said to be derived from "Gotalonia" (the place of
the Goths), but I cannot attest to it since I have not consulted
reliable sources. The other is Andalusia, it is said to be derived
from Vandalusia, (the land of the Vandals), this seems to be well
Also, the name of the city of "Burgos" is said to be of Germanic
origin, however, I am not sure whether it is Suebic or Gothic, perhaps
Francisc can elucidate on this word?
Dear Fernando, I m affraid that I m not the authority to elucidate this issue; I have to remind that I m only an amateur in linguistics. From my point of view,Message 1 of 15 , Aug 2, 2004View SourceDear Fernando,
I'm affraid that I'm not the authority to elucidate this issue; I
have to remind that I'm only an amateur in linguistics.
From my point of view, "Burgos" seems to be rather Suebic than Gothic.
If of Germanic origin, then it is cognate with the terms related to
German Burg "castle".
In Gothic the equivalent is baúrgs (pronounced [borgs]), whereas in
Suebic (a West-Germanic language) it should be something similar to
Old High German (OHG) burg. Spanish had not the tendency to shift
short [o] > short [u], in the contrary, like all the western Romanic
languages, it changed short [u] > short [o]. Thus, if the word would
be Gothic, it should be Borg(-os).
Unclear for me is the ending -os. Apparently, it looks like a Gothic
plural form (like wulfs, pl. wulfos, dags, pl. dagos, etc.), but this
applies to thematic nouns, and Gothic baúrgs (like OHG burg) is a
feminine athematic noun, having the nominative plural baúrgs
(identical with the singular). Maybe this ending comes from Spanish?
What is sure is that your first name comes from Gothic: Fridinandus
(Latinized) < *Frithu-nanths.
--- In email@example.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
> Also, the name of the city of "Burgos" is said to be of Germanic
> origin, however, I am not sure whether it is Suebic or Gothic,
> Francisc can elucidate on this word?
Dear Francisc, Please also see my next post regarding Gothic names. Francisc, I think many of us have forgotten that you modestly consider yourself anMessage 1 of 15 , Aug 3, 2004View SourceDear Francisc,
Please also see my next post regarding "Gothic" names.
Francisc, I think many of us have forgotten that you "modestly"
consider yourself an "amateur", however your explanation was quite
astute and I consider this list fortunate to have you on board. --
Lore had it that Burgos was founded in about 884 by Diego Rodriguez
heir to the first Count of Castile, Rodrigo I, however, it is now
widely accepted by historians that Burgos already existed a few
(centuries) before this proclamation. Records show that in 864 another
leader named Gundisalviz had already defended Burgos against invaders.
The latter and the fact that Burgos is located in the fringes of the
Southeastern areas of what was once the Suebic kingdom and the
Northwestern areas of the densest area of Visigothic settlement
indicates that geographically and chronologically, Burgos could have
been founded by either people (Suebi or Visigoths), but Even if it
were founded in the 9th C, it would mean that the Germanic word Burg
(whether Suebic or Gothic) had already somehow found its way into the
"formative" Castilian language (which at the time had not yet even
taken its medieval form). BTW I seem to remember somewhere
(Gamillscheg perhaps) that the word Burgos is (as you surmize) most
likely of Suebic provenance.
(Frithunanths Alatheus Ximenez Diaz)
Dear Francisc, Thank you for your response and the information concerning my Gothic name Frithunanths . Indeed, for some time I have known that my first nameMessage 1 of 15 , Aug 3, 2004View SourceDear Francisc,
Thank you for your response and the information concerning my Gothic
Indeed, for some time I have known that my first name Fernando comes
from the Gothic Frithu (peaceful?) + Nanths (daring or brave?). I also
believe that my second name Eladio may (as my family and others have
told me) also be of Gothic origin by way of the name Alatheus. --
Alatheus is attested to have been a *Tervingi Goth and a young general
said to have commanded the cavalry at that battle of Hadrianople under
Fritigern. (*I am not sure however, if the appellation "Tervingi" is
correct by this period of time).
I wonder if you or others may know something about the name Alatheus?
Frithunanths Alatheus Ximenez Diaz
( Fernando Eladio Jimenez Diaz )
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
> Dear Fernando,-cut-
> From my point of view, "Burgos" seems to be rather Suebic than Gothic.
> What is sure is that your first name comes from Gothic: Fridinandus
> (Latinized) < *Frithu-nanths.
Háils, Frithunanths! According to Annex 3, which deals with Gothic names, of Köbler s Gotisches WörterbuchMessage 1 of 15 , Aug 4, 2004View SourceHáils, Frithunanths!
According to Annex 3, which deals with Gothic names, of
Köbler's "Gotisches Wörterbuch"
the 4th century Gothic name Alatheus would be in classical (Wulfilan)
Gothic Alaþius (Alathius). Thus it is formed by ala-"all" and þius
(thius) "thrall, servant, boy".
Jordanes writes about Alatheus in Getica XXVI-XXVII, in the section
dealing with the Visigoths ("Vesegothae"):
"XXV (131) The Visigoths ("Vesegothae"), who were their other allies
and inhabitants of the western country, were terrified as their
kinsmen had been, and knew not how to plan for safety against the
race of the Huns. After long deliberation by common consent they
finally sent ambassadors into Romania to the Emperor Valens, brother
of Valentinian, the elder Emperor, to say that if he would give them
part of Thrace or Moesia to keep, they would submit themselves to his
laws and commands. That he might have greater confidence in them,
they promised to become Christians, if he would give them teachers
who spoke their language. (132) When Valens learned this, he gladly
and promptly granted what he had himself intended to ask. He received
the Getae into the region of Moesia and placed them there as a wall
of defense for his kingdom against other tribes. And since at that
time the Emperor Valens, who was infected with the Arian perfidy, had
closed all the churches of our party, he sent as preachers to them
those who favored his sect. They came and straightway filled a rude
and ignorant people with the poison of their heresy. Thus the Emperor
Valens made the Visigoths Arians rather than Christians. (133)
Moreover, from the love they bore them, they preached the gospel both
to the Ostrogoths and to their kinsmen the Gepidae, teaching them to
reverence this heresy, and they invited all people of their speech
everywhere to attach themselves to this sect. They themselves as we
have said, crossed the Danube and settled Dacia Ripensis, Moesia and
Thrace by permission of the Emperor.
XXVI (134) Soon famine and want came upon them, as often happens to a
people not yet well settled in a country. Their princes and the
leaders who ruled them in place of kings, that is Fritigern,
**ALATHEUS** and Safrac, began to lament the plight of their army and
begged Lupicinus and Maximus, the Roman commanders, to open a market.
But to what will not the "cursed lust for gold" compel men to assent?
The generals, swayed by avarice, sold them at a high price not only
the flesh of sheep and oxen, but even the carcasses of dogs and
unclean animals, so that a slave would be bartered for a loaf of
bread or ten pounds of meat. (135) When their goods and chattels
failed, the greedy trader demanded their sons in return for the
necessities of life. And the parents consented even to this, in order
to provide for the safety of their children, arguing that it was
better to lose liberty than life; and indeed it is better that one be
sold, if he will be mercifully fed, than that he should be kept free
only to die.
Now it came to pass in that troubIous time that Lupicinus, the Roman
general, invited Fritigern, a chieftain of the Goths, to a feast and,
as the event revealed, devised a plot against him. (136) But
Fritigern, thinking no evil, came to the feast with a few followers.
While he was dining in the praetorium he heard the dying cries of his
ill-fated men, for, by order of the general, the soldiers were
slaying his companions who were shut up in another part of the house.
The loud cries of the dying fell upon ears already suspicious, and
Fritigern at once perceived the treacherous trick. He drew his sword
and with great courage dashed quickly from the banqueting-hall,
rescued his men from their threatening doom and incited them to slay
the Romans. (137) Thus these valiant men gained the chance they had
longed for--to be free to die in battle rather than to perish of
hunger--and immediately took arms to kill the generals Lupicinus and
Maximus. Thus that day put an end to the famine of the Goths and the
safety of the Romans, for the Goths no longer as strangers and
pilgrims, but as citizens and lords, began to rule the inhabitants
and to hold in their own right all the northern country as far as the
(138) When the Emperor Valens heard of this at Antioch, he made ready
an army at once and set out for the country of Thrace. Here a
grievous battle took place and the Goths prevailed. The Emperor
himself was wounded and fled to a farm near Hadrianople. The Goths,
not knowing that an emperor lay hidden in so poor a hut, set fire to
it (as is customary in dealing with a cruel foe), and thus he was
cremated in royal splendor. Plainly it was a direct judgment of God
that he should be burned with fire by the very men whom he had
perfidiously led astray when they sought the true faith, turning them
aside from the flame of love into the fire of hell. From this time
the Visigoths, in consequence of their glorious victory, possessed
Thrace and Dacia Ripensis as if it were their native land.
XXVII (139) Now in the place of Valens, his uncle, the Emperor
Gratian established Theodosius the Spaniard in the Eastern Empire.
Military discipline was soon restored to a high level, and the Goth,
perceiving that the cowardice and sloth of former princes was ended,
became afraid. For the Emperor was famed alike for his acuteness and
discretion. By stern commands and by generosity and kindness he
encouraged a demoralized army to deeds of daring. (140) But when the
soldiers, who had obtained a better leader by the change, gained new
confidence, they sought to attack the Goths and drive them from the
borders of Thrace. But as the Emperor Theodosius fell so sick at this
time that his life was almost despaired of, the Goths were again
inspired with courage. Dividing the Gothic army, Fritigern set out to
plunder Thessaly, Epirus and Achaia, while **ALATHEUS** and Safrac
with the rest of the troops made for Pannonia. (141) Now the Emperor
Gratian had at this time retreated from Rome to Gaul because of the
invasions of the Vandals. When he learned that the Goths were acting
with greater boldness because Theodosius was in despair of his life,
he quickly gathered an army and came against them. Yet he put no
trust in arms, but sought to conquer them by kindness and gifts. So
he entered on a truce with them and made peace, giving them
With best regards,
Francisc, Thank you kindly for your explanation. I tried your link to Koebler s dictionary but I could not get it to work. Nonetheless, I was able to find anMessage 1 of 15 , Aug 4, 2004View SourceFrancisc,
Thank you kindly for your explanation.
I tried your link to Koebler's dictionary but I could not get it to
work. Nonetheless, I was able to find an alternate viable page and was
able to download it in PDF format; the link is:
As concerns your explanation, I suppose it might be possible to
understand the analysis of Alathius : (ala-"all") + (thius- "thrall,
servant, boy") in two different ways. One such might give the
understanding of a mendicant slave who waits on everyone. The other
might possibly be more in keeping with someone who had been given the
time the training and the grooming to eventually command the allied
Gothic cavalry as is evidenced in the Getica at the battle of
Hadrianople. The latter example may support understanding the name
Alatheus as one in the service of the Thiuda; a stoic caretaker
sacrificing himself in âserviceâ to âallâ the people. I suppose I m=
warn everyone however, I am not an onomastician or linguist; caveat
Comments are welcomed.
Thanks again Francisc.
Fernando Eladio JimÃ©nez DÃaz
(Frithunanths Alatheus XimÃ©nez DÃaz)
Correction: Diacritical marks in my previous post #7870 did not display correctly towards the end of the post. It is meant to read: The latter example mayMessage 1 of 15 , Aug 4, 2004View SourceCorrection:
Diacritical marks in my previous post #7870 did not display correctly
towards the end of the post.
It is meant to read:
The latter example may support understanding the name Alatheus as one
in the service of the Thiuda; a stoic caretaker sacrificing himself in
"service" to "all" the people. I suppose I must warn everyone however,
I am not an onomatologist or linguist; caveat lector.
Comments are welcomed.
Thanks again Francisc.
Fernando Eladio Jiménez Díaz
(Frithunanths Alatheus Ximéez Díaz)
Hi, Fernando, you didn t succeed to get the link to Koebler s Annex 3 (Gothic Names) probably because you tried to click on the link in my message. But,Message 1 of 15 , Aug 5, 2004View SourceHi, Fernando,
you didn't succeed to get the link to Koebler's Annex 3 (Gothic
Names) probably because you tried to click on the link in my message.
But, unfortunately, that addess was not displayed in one row, so in
this case you would click on a truncated link that obviously will
give an error. Therefore you have to retype the address in order to
accede to it.
Regarding your explanations regarding ala-thius, I also consider that
the second variant is more plasible.
--- In email@example.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
> Thank you kindly for your explanation.
> I tried your link to Koebler's dictionary but I could not get it to
> work. Nonetheless, I was able to find an alternate viable page and
> able to download it in PDF format; the link is:
> As concerns your explanation, I suppose it might be possible to
> understand the analysis of Alathius : (ala-"all") + (thius-
> servant, boy") in two different ways. One such might give the
> understanding of a mendicant slave who waits on everyone. The other
> might possibly be more in keeping with someone who had been given
> time the training and the grooming to eventually command the allied
> Gothic cavalry as is evidenced in the Getica at the battle of
> Hadrianople. The latter example may support understanding the name
> Alatheus as one in the service of the Thiuda; a stoic caretaker
> sacrificing himself in âserviceâ to âallâ the people. I
suppose I m=
> warn everyone however, I am not an onomastician or linguist; caveat
> Comments are welcomed.
> Thanks again Francisc.
> Fernando Eladio JimÃ©nez DÃaz
> (Frithunanths Alatheus XimÃ©nez DÃaz)