In a message dated 9/25/2009 3:44:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> Which muscle is it you think contains your knowledge of
> Algebra? >>
The stimulus is a math problem. The response is the need to solve it on
paper, so your finger muscles are activated by previous memories of similar
problems you solved.
> I say it exists in the great matrix of neurology which is
> the brain. No analytical mind, no Algebra. >>
As I said before, there's no need for an analytical mind.
Stimulus/response, and a functional memory of similar problems and solutions is all you need.
With no free will and no free choice, automatic muscle and memory processes
is all you have.
> the philosophy
> I have formed over all these years, they are in there also.>>
Oops... "I have formed" stimulates my cynical... sounds like a crack in
your "no free will" position>
> >Yes, I'm well aware of this widely accepted illusion,
> >but with no free will everything we do or say has to
> >be automatic in some way, and you seem to suggest that
> >we have choices. You can't have it both ways. Richard>>
> You can indeed, just as the computer has choices.
I write > the programs that make them.
> What stimulates you to write them is memories of writing similar programs
> you wrote in the past, not off the wall revelations, or epiphany.
<<Can the computer or the human > choose anything other than the one
> choice made? No>>
> Of course not, those stimulatus/response situations have already been
> resolved in our memories years ago.
but that is not to say we do not come to forks in our neural roadways
> or sometimes frozen in indecision... >>
If the S/R wasn't resolved in your memory of similar situations then
the same problem won't be resolved this time, unless other memories produce
additional related memories. Of course, related memories don't conflict
because they're all based on what works and what doesn't work.
> We control it in the same sense that a computer controls
> your car's ignition, and your cable box controls which
> program you watch.
> in trying so hard to rid yourself of the illusions,
> you are also eliminating magnificently elegant work done in
> the brain.>>
I'm well aware of the belief conditioning we all went through during our
formative years (still happening to many) about the need for mystery and
miracles, I resolved my false beliefs with engineering and logic... How about
> >Maybe all of thise things do happen, but they're all
> >beyond our control.>> Richard
> What do you think does control anything?>>
There is no control, only natural or conditioned reflex action, S/R and
muscle memories of similiar situations.
> <<Determinism does not require that I surrender my language,
> my subjective and metaphoric terms, or fail to recognize the
> functionality of the brain.>>
> Here's the Britannica version... Determinism; a theory that all events,
> including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing
> causes that preclude free will and the possibility that humans could have
> acted otherwise...
> As you can see, no free will means no choices and no need for the imput
> from an analytical brain. It's all automatic...
> <<By the way, your beloved stimulus/response is ever bit as
> much a myth, a metaphor, as mind. >>
Maybe so, but something stimulates the things we do and say, the things
we learned to do as children when our memories and brains were still
> everything effects everything, every atom. >>
I agree, but most stimulus that affect humans doesn't necessarily cause
response. It depends how it affects their memories.
> Whatever we refer to as thinking, is a real activity, and
> much activity takes place that is NOT the result of an
> external stimuli. >>
> True. things like the stimulus to sneeze, cough, deficate, fart, etc., are
> all internal and all are recorded in our memories.
> >With no free will or choice we control nothing,>>
> How is it your car stays on the road?>>
By stimulated muscle memory and instinct
> <<The next time you play chess, think about how much time it
> takes for you to respond to what you would call the single
> stimulus of you opponents move. do you suppose it is really
> helpful to bundle up all that neural activity, all the
> checking of possibilities, the fear of making a poor move,
> into the gross generality of "response"?>>
In that kind of S/R, it takes more time to search your memories for what
worked or didn't work in the past, and during the game you're bound to
record more memories to add to the others. IMO the weighted memories of What
works and doesn't work is all the muscle needs. No other analytical process is
> > >>You only have one memory and it includes things your
> > >>muscles have done (developed during your early years,
> > >>long before you had enough stored data to make sense
> > >>out of anything) and all other things that happened
> > >>to you and around you. Your memory and body responds
> > >>when stimulated, and it can happen in different ways
> > >>on different levels, many your not aware of. ...Richard
> > >
> > ><<Great, we have one memory, and it must then be in the brain,>>
> No one knows where it is, but that doesn't prevent so-called scientists
> from making educated guesses.
> <<Only you are asserting that the intelligent neurological
> process whereby a decision is reached, a new piece or art is
> created, a philosophical treatise is written, implies free
> will. Such activities of the brain (or mind), are absolutely
> determined, but they are not explain via stimulus/response
> trivialities. >>
Our basic difference seems to be you don't accept S/R as the only way
things happen. How do you think they happen... Is it that you just don't believe
the laws of physics and engineering, or maybe your revolting against the
cause theory of determinism... creating your own rogue theory...
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