In a message dated 12/21/2 12:10:57 AM, Ted wrote:
<<Bill Foley wrote on Tuesday, December 17, 2002:
I've been working on the same thing lately>>...<<in progress site
using >> ... Stevan << Davies latest book >>...<<
Bill, by "Davies," do you mean Steve Davies? And to which book are you
Steve's latest, The Gospel of Thomas Annotated and Explained (2002). I'd
made some boneheaded remark I think on [GTh] that I was done buying books
about gThom (mainly from my own limited financial reasons) and not long after
that Mike Grondin suggested this new book to the list. I've been pondering
gThom for 30 odd years since I bought a '59 Guillaumont et al translation in
an occult bookstore. So, I ended up not only buying Davies' latest book,
which has a great commentary and a clearer statement of some issues to refute
(than Patterson's 5th, or the others I have, Meyer, 5g, etc - the less
expensive ones), but also I bought The Secret Sayings by Grant and Freedman
('61, which B+N has newly reprinted cheap); this was also a good read.
<< James would certainly not agree with gThom, and the authors of gThom would
not agree with James. The argument clearly points to a time when James the
Just is well sainted and long dead. Ted, can I reproduce this post on the
site where it gets to James?
>> [Ted] <<
I am not sure I understand what you mean by "on the site where it gets to
*James*." I am assuming you are referring to the new site, which do I
understand is not yet up and running? But "to James?" I am sorry, but I
am confused about what you are asking.>>
I'm working on a site to examine or assert that Clement of Alexandria
compiled gThom. Right now it's in a rough state with some parts unfinished
and almost the whole of it rather uncouth, but up to check the links, etc and
to spur me to hurry; my life gets in the way too much unless I force myself
into a commitment like this. Within this site though I have to dispute the r
easons for the early dating, irrespective of Clement.
I've taken four reasons for early dating from Patterson's Fifth Gospel
and Davies latest gThom book, of which the third reason, the way the apostles
are presented, has a subsection that #12 (James the Just logion) could be a
chronological indicator for the time of compilation (which Patterson merely
hints at, but Davies puts quite plainly).
<< And how would you want to use my
post? Could you clarify? >>
I would use it in total with some easily discernable comments of my own.
Purposes are established, and all that. I'd been drafting revisions of
essentially the same thing when I saw your post which put the matter in a
more complete and easily understandable form than any of my drafts.
Whenever I try to directly access a post on the [xtalk] archives, I have
always got a plain message "Shouldn't you be someplace else?", so a link to
the post is out of the question.
I have a similar problem in that I want to elaborate on Steve's Appendix page
from his Thomas Homepage where he discerns four chapters in gThom (similar in
method to Schweitzer's Mystery of the Kingdom where he discerns the haziness
of the chronological memory of the Galilean 'ministry' on each side of when
he sent out the apostles). I'd like to tweak it a bit, but the initial
genius of it is his; but also like Schweitzer, I'm not sure he's still as
confident about this as to keep it online for me (who thinks both of these
are essentially right) to confidently link to it.
In a message dated 12/10/2 4:20:49 PM, you wrote:
Another probing question "to stir the pot." I have been struck lately by
what I can only gauge as (1) an anti-Judean-cult orientation in the Gospel of
Thomas and (2) the existence of an ideological dissonance resulting from the
Gospels high esteem for James the Just vis-a-vis the Gospels
anti-Judean-cult orientation. I draw attention first to the anti-Judean-cult
orientation in the following sayings attributed to Jesus (English translation
by Hans-Gebhard Bethge et al, in Stephen J. Patterson and James M. Robinsons
_The Fifth Gospel_).
I. Contra Fasting, Almsgiving, Prayer
"His disciples questioned him, (and) they said to him: "Do you want us to
fast? And how should we pray and give alms? And what diet should we observe?"
Jesus says: "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate. For everything is
disclosed in view of <the truth>. (6:1-4)
"Jesus said to them: "If your fast, you will bring forth sin for yourselves.
And if you pray, you will be condemned. And if you give alms, you will do
harm to your spirits." (14:1-3).
II. Contra Dietary Laws
"And if you go into any land and wander from place to place, (and) if that
they take you in, (then) eat what they will set before you. . . . For
whatever goes into your mount will not defile you. Rather, what comes out of
your mouth will defile you." (14:1-4a, 5).
III. Contra Purity Codes and Proscription against Association with Unclean
"Jesus says: Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Do you not understand
that the one who created the inside is also the one who created the
"Jesus [says]: The kingdom of the Father is like [a] woman. She took a
little *yeast.* [She] hid it in the dough (and) made it into huge loaves of
Conclusion to Parable of Great Feast: "The master said to his servant: Go
out on the roads. Bring (back) *whomever you find,* so that they might have
IV. Contra Circumcision
"His disciples said to him: Is circumcision beneficial, or not? He said to
them: If it were beneficial, their father would beget them circumcised from
their mother. But the true circumcision in the spirit has prevailed over
V. Contra Temple
"Jesus says: I will [destroy this] house, and no one will be able to build
it [again]. (71).
VI. Contra Fifth Commandment on Honoring Parents
"The disciples said to him: Your brothers and your mother are standing
outside. He said to them: Those here, who do the will of my Father, they
are my brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter the kingdom
of my Father." (99).
"Whoever does not hate his [father] and his mother as I do will not able to
be a [disciple] of mine. And whoever does [not] love his [father and] his
mother as I do will not be able to be a [disciple] of mine. (101).
III. Contra Judeans
"But your have become like the Jews [Judeans]. They love the tree, (but)
they hate the fruit. Or they love the fruit, (but) they hate the tree."
Compare now this anti-Judean-cultic orientation with the following saying
about James, Jesus brother:
"The disciples said to Jesus: We know that you will depart from us. Who
(then) will rule over us? Jesus said to them: No matter where you came
from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came
into being." (13).
Now I know of no one in the early Jesus movements more supportive of and more
defensive of the Judean cultic heritage than James, the brother of Jesus.
Just ask Paul about that. How is it then that this ideological dissonance
exists in the Gospel of Thomas: on the one hand, it is emphatically
anti-Judean cult and on the other, and opposite, hand, it extravagantly
extols James, the most noted defender of the Judean cultic heritage in the