> ... Due to the postwar era of
> modern planning the traditional mixed use style of development is
> illegal in many places as it violates modern zoning laws.
Bingo! Very good point.
Case in point: In Pittsburgh, should a "row house" be torn down (due to
total need -- say bad roof for 5 years), it can't be "re-built." The new
laws say you need say 5-feet on each side of the property line (? exact) for
new building. Well, many of these row houses are on lots 15-foot wide.
So, the zoning laws (very un-Libertarian) get in the way for in-fill
developments in places that used to hold such buildings.
That is wrong. I'd be in favor of zapping most zoning laws. Too much
So, in this case -- the anti-sprawl friends are the pro-society
> I'm wondering if you, as a Libertarian, object to the Federal
> government's massive subsidy of highway funds at the expense of other
> transportation alternatives?
Mostly. But, there are some other transportation alternatives that I'm not
fond of as well. Maglev (magnetic levitation trains -- high speed) is
something that I don't think we should purchase for a number of reasons.
But, I'm in big favor of plain old heavy rail.
> Since sprawl type development is largely
> dependent on access to cheap land, its not really a truly free market
> when taxpayers are up picking up the tab for that access is it?
Agree. But, I might stress, sprawl development is largely dependent upon the
flight of urban areas too. The attraction to the new houses out there is
less than the avoidance to the conditions that have gone bad.
> Of course its expected that an area that has been abandoned and
> neglected for decades will be ugly. The relocation of the tax base
> from the city to the suburbs pretty much guaranteed that would
I see it a bit in another way. Has the tax base of the city shrunk? If there
was a "land value tax" -- it is hard to shrink the tax base unless the land
is annexed to another municipal entity -- or the neighborhood gets flooded
for some high-dam project. :)
And, as sprawl happens, the people move in far in advance of the tax base.
Right. So, the shifting of the taxes (most of all in a TIF setting - tax
incentive finance deal) comes at a much later date than the original
Q: Isn't there a cash-flow problem with sprawl too? The relocation of the
tax base is more of an artifact to the sprawl, less the cause of it.
But, the real prime mover (string pullers) is the corporate interests and
speculators. These folks can control politicians and set the course for
self-government in their favor. The speculators have out-foxed the citizens
in the application of the process of democracy.
> > I too feel strongly that freedom does come before everything else
> as well. I
>> think you'd be better served not fighting that point on face-value.
> Well in this case the particular "freedom" I was referring to was the
> notion of unhindered, unlimited consumer freedom. An example of this
> would be the "right" to own an SUV. It may personally provide the
> occupants a small margin of improved safety, but it doesn't do much
> for the majority who don't drive one when they get hit by three tons
> of steel. In a multiple vehicle crash the occupants of the car are
> four times more likely to be killed than the occupants of the SUV, in
> a side-impact collision with an SUV, they are 27 times more likely to
> But this notion of unhindered consumer freedom says that is OK. The
> fact that your vehicle choice is collectively making driving much
> more dangerous doesn't matter since as an individual you're
> benefiting from it.
You make good points. But, I'd still stand by the original concept that
there are never any unhindered consumer freedoms. Stress the fact that
FREEDOMs always come with restraints.
> Being more than a little bit idealistic here, my wish would be for
> them to live in a free world with clean air, water, and liveable
> cities that doesn't come at of excessive detriment to the natural
> world. One with an efficient transportation system that doesn't
> consume two or three hours of their waking day getting to and from
> work. One where quality of life is a more imporatant concern than
> quantity of life. Not one where our environment is so poisoned by
> excessive self interest that people travel around isolated in little
> steel boxes and live in gated communities because they are afraid of
> the people around them.
You get just one wish. The genie is going back into the bottle. :)
>>The loss of freedom is the greatest threat to live in
>> this country. Perhaps urban sprawl is a by-product of huge weakness
>> self-government, democracy, freedoms and restraints. IMHO, the city-
>> have gotten out flanked by a few speculators and have had the rug of
>> responsible democratic freedoms pulled from under them by a few
>> with serious corporate interests.
> The problem is that the particular "freedom" you're defending is
> somewhat exclusive since it requires the ownership of an automobile
> to partake in.
Nope. I'm talking general terms. And, I'm sure that our freedom (in the USA)
is a vehicle with four flat tires. It isn't healthy today. So, I agree with
what you say that follows. But, my freedom vision isn't exclusive nor
> Additionally in most cities there is very little
> choice associated with that freedom i.e. I can have any method of
> transport I want as long as it is by automobile. If I'm too young,
> too old, too poor, or otherwise physically prohibited from driving
> then my "freedom" in a city based around sprawl type development is
> very limited.
> You're right that urban sprawl is a of huge weakness in the system of
> self-government, democracy, freedoms and restraints. However I'm a
> little confused here, as in general Libertarians are against any such
> restraints instead favoring the individual responsibility that your
> advocated above.
> However, it is arguably that very lack
> of "responsibility" that that drives sprawl type development in the
> first place. The perpetrators or sprawl type planning - corporate
> franchises, absentee landowners, and real estate speculators have
> little or no stake in the future of a community. Their only concern
> is to extract wealth from the natural resources and inhabitants of
> the area. As a result such intangible concepts as quality of life
> don't really factor into their concept of responsibilty.
> This however leads into the much bigger issue of corporatization and
> the subjugation of the democratic process which I won't go into
Fine. FWIW, you've done a good job of not getting into it today anyway. :)
> Urban sprawl, however, is in my opinion the most visible
> expression of the corporate "Consume and you will be Free" philosophy
> that more often than not we use to connotate freedom in this day and
Nods -- so -- we have to have them flip over the coin of freedom that is in
their own hands/pockets. Don't shame them into it -- or don't steal it back
from them. Rather, smart them into it for their own good and we have a
win/win for society.
The advertised facade of freedom from corporate America is false. The
heartbeat of America -- whatever -- isn't about turning the ignition key and
driving down some winding road. We all agree. Let's not run from freedom
because of some false facade from Madison Avenue. Let's show the other side.
That is the way to stop them in their tracks once in for all. Cut them at
Do you know what is really free? Me walking down the steps to work each
morning. I am free as I take care of my own children. I'm free as I don't
need to move my car for a week.