The cross-post follows this note:
We have a bit of a complication in that there may be people in this Yahoo group who are not part of the Ely Carroll DNA subgroup that has its own Yahoo group, but both groups have an interest in the traditional surname histories for Irish Bowe, placing its origin in Cork. Rather than try to cross post discussions relevant to that question, you might consider joining the Ely Carroll Yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elycarroll/)
if you are interested in Cork origins. That way you won't miss a post/thread in one group that is not in the other. I am cross-posting my recent Ely Carroll Yahoo group post on this so you can get an idea why the topic is relevant to both groups, at least at this juncture.
From my RSS post:
"The traditional Irish Bowe surname histories state that Irish Bowe originated in Cork [http://www.bowesonenamestudy.com/findings_2/origins/irish-origins/irish-ancient-origins-cork/]
. We will continue to explore whether there is any evidence of this Ely Carroll line having come up from Cork, whether a different early Irish line taking the name Bowe came from Cork, or whether our discovery overturns those histories and instead shows the Gaelic precursors to the Bowe name have always been in the Midlands. Further growth in the DNA Project should help to clarify this."
Now to the cross-post
Re: Bowen of Ely O'Carroll
Using your e-mail text for more clarification:
The great grandfather of the original Ely Carroll is:
102. Cnamhin ("cnaimh": Irish, a bone): his son; a quo O'Cnaimhin, anglicised
Nevin, MacNevin, Bone, Bonass, and Bowen.
I am wondering what you think of the connection between Bowen in O'Hart and the
7 people named Bowe(s) and Bohan that we have DNA for? It seems to me that
Cnamhin is the origin of Bowe and Bohan.
That's interesting. I had not taken a close look at the pedigree before. It
looks like that Gaelic precursor to Bowen would have lived approximately 625
years prior to Daniel.
Since O'Hart says the surnames Nevin and Bone came from the same gaelic root as
Bowen, then if Bowe is a surname variant on this line, over time we would expect
to find some genetic matches with Nevin and Bone. So far, there are five Nevin,
14 Bone and 55 Bowen in the FTDNA database but none show up as a match to our
Bowe, even at 12 markers. Something to watch for though. I don't have the
ability to check for matches in the Bohan group.
I have copies of the Bowe/Bowes pages from Woulfe's 1967 Irish Names and
Surnames, which happen to have some of these other names falling on the same
page and, to the extent that this information is correct, gives more information
about where the names originated. Another interesting association emerges. He
Bowen derives from:
1. O'Cnaimin *but in Clare*,
2. Botun in Leix and parts of Munster, and
3. Buadacain in Cork.
Does this suggest that if ever there are Bowen matches in Ely Carroll they most
likely would have derived from Botύn in Leix, or might they have come from
O'Cnaimin but in Clare? The Griffith's distribution map for Bowen shows it is
clearly and very heavily concentrated in Cork and scant in Leix, showing
Buadacain in Cork to be the predominant (not necessarily only) origin of that
Bone derives from:
1. Botun in Leix
Bones derives from:
1. Cnaim in Mayo,
2. Cnamaig in some parts of Mayo.
Here's where I think it gets a little complicated but interesting
Bohan, Bohanan, Bohane, Boohan, Boughan, Bouhan derive from:
1. Buadacain but no place given other than a possibly significant footnote that
Bohane has origins *"in the neighborhood of Skibbereen [and] is generally used
as a nickname for a branch of the O'Sullivan's."*
What is possibly significant about this is that Skibbereen is in the Corca
region of Cork, where according to Woulfe the Bowe name comes from. Meanwhile
others have placed the origin of Bowe among the Eoghanacta within a Sullivan
According to Woulfe, Buadhaigh (variant of Buadacain, both meaning victorious)
was anglicized Bogue in Cork and became Bowe in the midlands. Many Bogues in
Cork consider themselves to be a branch of the O'Sullivan's, but Woulfe believed
that was a misunderstanding based on the common use of the name Buadhaigh among
So we have: Bohan/e and Bowe both having origins in the Gaelic name for
victorious and in the Corca region and as a branch of the O'Sullivans. Corca was
McCarthy territory, so I don't know if the O'Sullivans were really there, or if
that association was a leap because Buadhaigh was a common name among the
O'Sullivans. Did the surname historians split the wire by giving them separate
origins but in the same region? I can see where phonetically Buadacain might
lead to Bohan and Buadhaigh might lead to Bogue>Bowe, suggesting separate lines
originating from separate individuals in the Corca region. But, could the
historians error, being told the root of Bowe is a Corca individual whose Gaelic
name meant victorious, have been making Bowe a derivation of Bogue rather than
The Griffith's Valuation shows 71 Bohanes, all but 1 in Cork. Bohans have a
strong Cork showing too, but also other counties, especially Leitrim.
Putting all this together, and not having done anything more thorough than this,
is the stronger association between Bowen and Cnamhin (possibly of Clare origin)
becoming Bohan/Bowe, or Bohan/e/Bowe from the Corca region with a possible
So far there is no DNA connection between our Bowe and Sullivans or Corca
-origins-cork/can-dna-help.html), but as the second theorizer on that page
suggests, the region was probably peopled with a variety of DNA, much of which
is probably not in the database. And if the origin is Corca, how did that DNA
get in the O'Carroll line or vice versa?
Or is it just a breakaway O'Carroll line that took the name of its leader,
possibly with some association to the Gaelic word for cow, an animal often
mentioned with reference to Ely Carroll?
On the one hand I like to not leave any stone unturned and am comfortable,
actually prefer, not making conclusions until I can trace the logical steps; on
the other hand I can definitely overthink things, so call me on it if I am
missing the forest for the trees! Or, to mix metaphors, maybe I fell in a pond
of red herrings.
[Sorry for any voice recognition errors I've missed.]
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "peterabiggins" <pabiggin@...> wrote:
> Have you seen O'Hart's reference to Bowen in generation 102 of his pedigree of
Ely O'Carroll. I have added a link.