Starman, Thanks for the well thought-out reply. I think that Arabism s materialistic spin on Aristotle was a necessary part of the evolution of consciousness.Message 1 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002View SourceStarman,
Thanks for the well thought-out reply.
I think that Arabism's materialistic spin on Aristotle was a
necessary part of the evolution of consciousness. This was the point
where humans began to perceive the pure ideas of the spiritual world
as a creation of their own thinking rather than the creations of
higher beings acting through human consciousness. It enabled us to
take hold of thinking and exercise our will in that complex web of
creation, but at the same time it started us down the road away from
recognition of spirit. So we must resist the danger, but at the same
time incorporate the life giving elements of that way of thinking. So
Aquinas can be seen as incorporating the Arabic sphere into Christian
perception embracing it positively as well as giving it a well needed
The Islamic thought that my mind sees is reflected in the great
architecture of southern Spain and the mid-east which consists of
complex webs of motives with organically integrated ornamentation.
I believe that this stream combined with Christianity in the music of
JS Bach, where the deepest Christian mysticism is expressed with
complex counterpoint. Fugue, canon, and other forms of counterpoint
are very Islamic in the numerical relations and mathematical
exactitude and the interweaving of webs of motives. A comparison
between plain chant and Bach's Bmin Mass indicates how the Arabic
influence can help us attain the highest spiritual ends. I'm not
saying that Arabs necessarily invented Baroque counterpoint, but that
they created the thought form archetypes that the inventers
subsequently used. This same type of thought is the basis of the
hyper linking of information on the WWWeb which may or may not be an
example of its negative potential.
I agree that the Arab world passed on Greek thought, but I think we
must emphasize the transformations of that thought and seek to
visualize what it was. We cannot return to the Dark Ages but we must
extract the gold that is there before discarding what is left over in
the dust bin.
--- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
> jackfreed@m... writes:
> > Starman:
> > But isn't Islam, despite its present demonic elements, the source
> > the positive contributions of math, science, and rational
> > that has become the foundation of Western economics? The souls of
> > Islam reincarnated in Western rationalism. The al-quada stream
> > divergent development that draws on the Christ-rejection, but the
> > merger of the rational Arabic stream into the West seems
> > for the achievement of human freedom. Or should we differentiate
> > between Islam and the Arabic stream of Haroun al Rachid, etc??
> > Kenneth
> ******* Well, to perhaps oversimplify what Steiner says, I believe
> find in his many references to the history of thinking and
> about 600 years before the Christ impulse, a sort of "Luciferic"
> of it appeared in Greek philosophy, while about 600 years after it,
> an "Ahrimanic" after-image in Islam. The greatest fruit of Greek
> was the creation of logic with Aristotle, which one on to remake
> world; and this was almost entirely lost to Western Europe and only
> in Arabic translation. In his lectures on Thomas Aquinas, Steiner
> during this time of its translation into Arabic, Aristotelian
> given a materialistic "spin" which could have been used by the anti-
> powers to undermine the Christ-impulse, and this was why Aquinas
> just at the time when the Aristotelian writings, with a subtle
> bias, were translated back into Latin. The materialistic re-casting
> thought has progressed in the Islamic world, and produced Islamic
> fundamentalism, where even Heaven is thought of as a very physical
> fruit trees, virgins to service the men, etc. (I guess no women go
> or if they do it's only if they're lesbians? Maybe some Islamic
> enlighten us about the '72 virgins' verse.)
> So I wouldn't say that Islam originated anything, it passed
> thinking. In its heyday of Maimonides, Avicenna and Averroes it
> to science, but it developed a weakness to being tempted by an
> attitude to all things. This is why he we have the biased "science"
> present day, because the same Ahrimanically-tainted souls who lived
> became Charles Darwin, et al. There have been no contributions to
> thought, science or progress from the Islamic world in at least 600
> There was a milieu within which the souls seeking to bring mankind
> could incarnate in the ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but
> degenerated. It's of no more use now than incarnating in Greece
would be to a
> present-day Aristotle.
> Japanese thinking became free to contribute to world progress
> one-sidedness led it into a disaster and it had to suffer defeat in
> Perhaps the reform movement that must come in Islam will have to go
> something similar before it can regenerate that old religion. Both
> and Christianity have had their "Reformations" which were necessary
> minds to become free from the shackles of tradition, regardless of
> the tradition was. Hinduism was reformed by its contact with the
> then the revolution and Gandhi. Only Islam has yet to have one. It
> be dividing into a forward-moving Islam and a retrograde one
> into the dark ages. That retrograde one is harmful for human beings
> present and so cannot stand, and all this war is about is helping
it die out
> as quickly as possible, helping it to join fascism and communism in
> Bin of History.
> BTW, as if what I said couldn't be the source of enough
> Moslem friend of mine after many years of study concluded that
> borrowed stuff from Christians and Jews whose caravans came through
> and slapped together his religion out of all this, just as a
vehicle for his
> tribe to go back and capture Mecca. My Egyptian friend was very
> about any of the so-called 'visions' being real, just as I am about
> Smith and the Mormons. Of course nobody likes to call a religion
> false, but he, after a lifetime of practicing Islam, had concluded
> was basically just a composite put together by a merchant with no
> spiritual experience. Of course, since he didn't live in an
> Islamic country like Turkey, he felt free to express his opinion
only here in
> America. Here we allow people to say that Jesus was a fraud and the
> Christians stole everything from the earlier pagan religions,
although we are
> nominally a Christian country; I guess that's what marks a people
> enlightened and tolerant, whether they can allow that. We tolerate
> Rushdies. Any religion that really believes it has truth, and that
> practice what it preaches, should always be able to.
> > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
> > > lightsearcher1@y... writes:
> > > > In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly *
> > the implicit
> > > > connection he is making here between the "Islam" of the early
> > portion of
> > > > his lecture and the furious, demonic rage and destructiveness
> > builds to
> > > > and ends up speaking about at the end..... ....but to me the
> > connection Ã¢â¬"
> > > > and his intent Ã¢â¬" are MANIFEST. Why else would he bookend
> > single lecture
> > > > with ISLAM at the start...and furious "Sorat-ian" rage at
> > conclusion ?
> > > >
> > > > *******Boy, you sure have made a Politically Incorrect post
> > talking
> > > > about the reality of what's reared its head since 1998. Be
> > prepared to have
> > > > bricks thrown at you by everyone who doesn't want to hear
> > this
> > > > materialist anti-religion and what it really is. Everyone
> > seems to
> > > > want to think Coca-Cola or Ford is the Antichrist, not
> > Dark Age
> > > > religious fanatics killing innocent civilians in flaming
> > holocausts. But
> > > > thanks for posting Steiner's prescient remarks.
> > > > -starman
> > >
> > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > > Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
> > > > September 1924 / Switzerland
> > > > From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
> > > > realms: the realm of NATURE Ã¢â¬" which is the realm of the
> > > > (the source of the created world both spiritually and
> > Ã¢â¬"
> > > > and the realm of the SPIRIT.
> > > > The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
> > > > world I have just been speaking about. They know Ã¢â¬" and
> > > > ONLY know Ã¢â¬" the Father.
> > > > They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah,
> > > > none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
> > > > From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
> > > > polarity to Christianity.
> > > > Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
> > > > worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever,
> > will
> > > > to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social
> > > > that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing
> > > > is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
> > > > Father God alone.
> > > > A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
> > > > feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
> > > > this. The human being cannot become filled through and
> > > > through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine
> > > > the Father (alone).
> > > > Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his
> > > > humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able
> > > > conceive the Father God.
> > > > In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
> > > > Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection
> > > > the material conviction that spiritual realities are
> > and
> > > > vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
> > > > Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone)
> > > > arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
> > > > example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
> > > > from purely material causes.
> > > > And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords
> > with
> > > > the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is
> > > > mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
> > > > Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
> > > > spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as "sun demon."
> > > > This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
> > > > such a way that Ã¢â¬" if a human being were to succumb to
> > > > of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
> > > > being would Ã¢â¬" by his own free choice Ã¢â¬" surrender
> > > > connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection
> > with
> > > > the sub-human spiritual realms.
> > > > The apocalyptist saw this. Ã¢â¬" He felt and saw the mighty
> > (future)
> > > > counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
> > > > It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything
> > that
> > > > brings the human being close to the purely animal nature,
> > of
> > > > all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses
> > > > will and action.
> > > > And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
> > > > looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
> > > > work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
> > > > sun-intelligence.
> > > > If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the
> > > > of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
> > > > dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
> > > > Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
> > > > the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order
> > > > impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
> > > > The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
> > > > counter-principle to Christianity Ã¢â¬" such as Arabism and
> > > > deterministic conceptual constructs Ã¢â¬" as direct outflow
> > the
> > > > counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
> > > > And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism
> > > > directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian
> > of
> > > > transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as
> > this
> > > > were the case but Ã¢â¬" by allotting validity only to the
> > principle
> > > > Ã¢â¬" to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces
> > > > intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
> > > > for that which is active in the very deepest way in a
> > > > such as transubstantiation.
> > > > (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result
> > > > the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
> > > > of the number 666Ã¢â¬Â¦.)
> > > > During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden
> > > > actively at work within the external process of outward
> > he
> > > > was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
> > > > Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number
> > > > 1998 A.D.
> > > > At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will
> > when
> > > > Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
> > > > waves of history.
> > > > Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run
> > > > Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
> > > > Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
> > > > through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
> > > > whom many are "possessed."
> > > > Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
> > > > believe that they are really human beings.
> > > > These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by
> > > > external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only
> > at
> > > > everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
> > > > push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
> > > > Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions,
> > > > savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in
> > > > emotions.
> > > > The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
> > > > deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
> > > > apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and
> > > > beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the
> > adversary
> > > > over against the spiritual.
> > > > Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
> > > > immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in
> > what
> > > > is to come.
> > > > - - - - - - - - - -
Brother Bradford sez: ...I for one, can t even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the Sorath e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called forMessage 1 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002View SourceBrother Bradford sez:
"...I for one, can't even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the
e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for literal
burnings and morbid Islamic profiling. However, I stand behind what
Starman has just brought in regards to Islamic history."
I don't think 'flaming' is so much the issue (although it is hard to discuss
Arabism without sensing the incredible potential for volatile combusition)
I think it has more to do with understanding the mechanics of Islam as
it relates to it's instruction book.....the Koran.
History does provide a bit of a framework. But even if there were no
documented references to the "Bloody Borders of Islam," this info is written
indelibly in the Astral Light for anyone with even partially developed
Rudolph Steiner isn't the only credible source to suggest that Islam is a
progenitor of antichrist (the sun demon... the 'qliphoth of Tiphareth')
As I said before, unlike the Judeo/Christian scriptural mandates,
the Koran offers absolutely no mechanism for change.....
no 'Once and Future King' .. no Redeemer...no sprouting seed...
no Oversoul offering continuous upgrades by way of etheric
embedding and quickening.
Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on it.
From: Br. Ron ... Brother Ron brought; ... Bradford responds; Dear, beloved Grail brother; This is the way the world ends This is theMessage 1 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002View SourceFrom: "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...>
>Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAMBrother Ron brought;
>Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 02:45:59 -0700
>Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steamBradford responds;
>locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
>I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
>It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
>global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on
Dear, beloved Grail brother;
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
Let me offer you a prayer for the Intellectual Soul. The world is not
threatened by this type of destruction. Demons and Hollow Men need the
shells and souls of men to inhabit. Because we are now the full blown image
of "Hollow Men". It is not because Saddam is right and we are wrong. It is
not because we are right and Saddam is wrong. It is because we have bred a
form of Fundamentalism here in America and around the world that is equally
as jaded, as rigid, and as unfree.
Our own Fundamentalism, stifles human insight into the Christ Being. It
allows only the trite 'Jesus' to live on, and those who do not follow the
trite Jesus are Satanist, terrorists, weird. The profile of a Terrorist fits
anyone who thinks and has different ideas and strong political opinions.
Good Soul everywhere, Native American, Hindu, Eskimo, are imagined excluded
from heaven because they have not read the Bible in this incarnation. As far
as Heaven and lies are concerned, everything is solved because we die, all
of this nonsense is Fundamentally choking the world. Even as false, Islam,
not Henry Corbin Islam, but false Islam is Fundamentally choking the world.
False Islam is another retarded force that has outlived its mission. Hebrews
have also outlived there mission. These stand and babble today, attempting
to think and survive in the dawning Consciousness Soul which makes all of us
brothers and sisters and unites all religions.
The Hollow Men and the Intellectual Soul, loves the Ahrimanic tendency
toward Fundamentalism because here all the old world politics and all the
old church justifications for there own history of terror, rises again. 90%
of the world has no clue about the true nature of Christ, the vast world of
Freedom and the Consciousness Soul and this is what is desired. Keep
everyone bickering over simplistic, idiotic issues which require socially
mob generated, ignorant thought forms. Nothing is truer than the idea that
worlds of thought, fought long before wars appear.
Either Fundamental dogmas out of Science of the West telling us all what
vaccinations we 'must have' because the west must have a fundamentalism of
disease, latent in the world are monster diseases and we will need to get a
clean genetic slate, to have a safe world. Let us grasp the idiocy of the
War on Cancer. An endless War, which leads to more and more ignorant
infringement and investment gain in stupidity to have corporations profit
from more lies. But as Hollow Men and Women, we prefer the lies. The
Ahrimanic and Luciferic forces prefer a social mob thought of fear on every
issue in order to capture and hold the shell of humans. The world is no good
to Ahrimanic and Luciferic agendas if humans are destroyed. The inroads must
be socially mandated and kill all freedoms with a droning, Orwellian, World
regime of fear and socially mandated dogmas.
Listen to the Song of the Intellectual Soul as sung by T.S. Eliot, it is
certainly us. This is as ugly as Saddam is.
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar
Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;
Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.
Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death's dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind's singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.
This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man's hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.
Is it like this
In death's other kingdom
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.
The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms
In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river
Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
****** "Now, almost no one on the planet likes Saddam Hussein. He is a
grim, bloody figure; not just another strong-man. His government routinely
threatens entire families of prominent Iraqis who spend time abroad and
might consider not returning, a tactic borrowed from Stalin's reign of
Saddam has gassed thousands of his own Kurdish people and thousands, perhaps
tens of thousands, of Iranian soldiers. But in the sphere of international
relations, moral considerations count for little. After all, his most brutal
acts were carried out under a long period of America's smiling favor.
Saddam, like so many torturers and murderers from Shah Pahlevi to General
Pinochet, was fine so long as he served the right interests.
Despite his having fallen into disfavor, the hard fact is he remains a
serious threat to no one but his own people.
The noises we hear about invasion provide a measure of Mr. Bush's ineptness
at his job. His Secretary of Defense argues publicly with newspapers about
what is fit to print.
But on a less superficial level, there is simply no reason to attack Iraq.
There is not a jot of evidence that Iraq is associated with al Qaeda.
Promoting nonsense like an Axis of Evil might carry weight with America's
superstitious, lunatic fringe, particularly its large Texas chapter, but it
is ridiculed by all the world's hard-nosed statesmen and pragmatic
observers. It's not as though the U.S. has ignored Saddam since Bush p�re
kissed the White House good-bye. The CIA spent huge amounts of money trying
to foster opposition forces in Iraq, only to see Saddam's troops roll up
their efforts, adding another statistic to the CIA's long record of
The CIA's propensity for these kinds of projects, what we might call its
Bay-of-Pigs Syndrome, results from the unthinking demands America's
political leaders so often make of it. Almost the entire record of America's
post-war interventions reflects bitter domestic politics and ideology rather
than genuine threats to genuine American interests. Here is prima facie
evidence, if any were needed, of chronic, poor national leadership resulting
from an antiquated, money-corrupted political system.
The U.S. has been bombing Iraq regularly at low intensity for a decade,
using the rationale of enforcing its "no-fly zones." These zones were
conceived at least in part to humiliate Saddam and encourage his overthrow.
A powerful blockade - embargo is the nice word - of Iraq has also been in
place for all those years (something which unquestionably contributed to the
deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children despite the tiresome
apologists at the State Department).
The fact that Saddam remains firmly in power after years of effort tells us
something about his grip on Iraqi society. There is no opposition worthy of
the name. The "progressive" press in the U.S. has carried dump-truck loads
of articles about Bush and Iraq. The most recent convoy of them has Bush
using war in Iraq to cover a sour economy before either upcoming
Congressional elections or his own effort at reelection.
But despite the stock market's performance, the American economy is not all
that sour. It is actually in reasonably healthy condition by a number of
measures. But for some people now, only historically-ridiculous levels of
stock-market performance over the last decade are judged as healthy. This
kind of expectation is simply a new twist on "I want it all, and I want it
now!" A very popular sentiment in America.
Things are "going down the toilet" when yuppie 401Ks are doing badly. Upper
middle-class America is angry and is stomping its expensively-tennis-shoed
foot about what counts: its portfolio.
It is a simple fact that markets do not like uncertainty. Part of what has
happened to stocks reflects Mr. Bush's own actions and policies. He is
correctly perceived as inept, although few Americans will say so publicly in
a situation reckoned as a state of quasi-war. From the limited perspective
of the stock market, Bush's offset to ineptness has been a willingness to
let business do pretty much as it wishes. While stocks climbed and balance
sheets seemed honest, a lot of people thought that was fine policy.
Generally overlooked, too, is the simple fact that stock markets do not like
wars and rumors of wars. And Bush is "staying the course," like a mule in
the only rut of a path it knows, concerning his poorly-defined war on
terror, involving any number of countries and an indefinite future.
Leaders abroad are almost unanimous in rejecting Mr. Bush's grade-school
ideas for dealing with Iraq. Since a few other countries - Japan, Saudi
Arabia, and Germany - paid much of the bill for Desert Storm, it means that
this time the U.S. is going to pay its own bills in a far more demanding
conflict. This is not something stock markets like. "
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post. I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while but since he approached theMessage 1 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002View SourceFolks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post.I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a whilebut since he approached the topic on this list, I feel it is onlyright to reply in kind. You may feel more comfortable simplydeleting this rather than having to wade through the somewhatcloistered subject matter.BRSir Bradford...
Let me start by telling you how much I appreciate your gift.
You have an overview of synchronicities and harmonics that
could only be attributed to one with Vision...(note the capital 'V')
Furthermore, I find little to disagree with in your colorful writings.
In principle, I don't wholly disagree with your position in this
post in regards to the geo-political situation of America and it's
approach to her perceived enemies.
Yet, there are points in which we don't quite see eye to eye...
(nor is it even necessary that we do, except that it is natural
to seek to be understood as well as to understand)
First, I am not a fundamentalist. (Fundamentalists are those who
point the crooked finger of accusation at weirdoes like myself whowalk into a Seven-Eleven wearing a wizard costume, on our way toperform at the Renaissance Faire.But two years ago, I had a major metanoia concerning this.It was so major...and so subjective, that I can't even discuss itwithout diluting it's meaning.It was so upturning that my muse, Ariel, left me for a whole yearbecause of the volcanic recognition of my overplus of Ideality inrelation to Reality. I was paralyzed musically, and for one whohas fed his family for 40 years with the fruits of melody, you canimagine how upsetting this was...not only for me but for my wholetribe. Zanoni was fully eclipsed by Mejnour..... and as one whoperpetually inhabited the flowered heights of La La Land, I hated it.I have since recognized the fine line between being a 'fundamentalist'and acknowledging the periodic necessity of returning to the'fundamentals' of something. I generally dislike 'progressive jazz'because it often departs too severely from the fundamentalheart of the melody.In my view, this same pathology often extends to Anthroposophistsin relation to the Heart of the Christ Being and the beginning of theconcert as it was written 2000 years ago, at the Hub of Time..and timing.Christianity as a melody has an infinitely simple (as well as an infinitelycomplex) structure. Right now I am in the mode of gleaning the OriginalMelody as interpreted by some of the more traditional avenues likeCatholicism, Tomberg, Orthodoxy, etc. (I've always done everythingbackward....Similarly, I have played 'by ear' my whole life...and amonly now getting around to learning to read music :-)As a 'New Ager,' I took pride in my ability to play all the different'concerts of philosophy' at the same time but eventually found I wasbecoming so "spiritually well rounded" that I wasn't really going anywhere.I have since learned (for me) the value of sticking with Vivaldi on Mondaynight and saving Bach until Tuesday.Now to politics.George Bush is not as stupid as I originally thought. In spite of hisinarticulation ('nukular' instead of nuclear, et al) he seems to have a handleon the fundaments of the American Spirit. Yes, he is too prone to backentrepreneur and corporate culture at the expense of the weak, the poorthe homeless, etc but this is the urgency of the zeitgeist, methinks. Thependulum will swing back...it always doesWhat Bush DOES have, perhaps unconsciously, is a knowledge of'as above, so below.' "Patriotism," it is said, "is the last refuge of ascoundrel."Perhaps...but leftists who protesteth too much don't yet realize thata cell which too often condemns the very body that gives it succor,eventually becomes subject to the very 'bacteria cops' which willexpel it from the whole body.The fact is, that any freedom that exists in the West today is the resultof those who lovingly sacrificed themselves on the Plains of Pelinore.No, this isn't the Ideal...but it is the reality of the situation.I am not saying to attack Iraq...but what I AM saying is that wemust be realistic in our approach to Evil. We can simply be'Gary Goodguy' and trust that as the Etheric Christ descends allthese things will work themselves out...and ultimately this is true.But I wholeheartedly believe that in order to be able to align ourmolecules to the descending Oversoul of Redemption, we mustunderstand what the essence of Christianity is.In my mind and heart, I see it as quite simply the pursuit ofCosmic Beauty.Yet what makes the melody beautiful is the resolutionof the discordant notes into the 'ah ha' of the harmonious.We nevertheless need the discordants. Without themthe melody would be all tonics and hence too sweet.The roses likewise can't bloom unless they are subjected to thepruning shears of the master gardener.....nor can we humans donour Wedding Garments until we have descended into the hell ofthe crucifixion to liberate the sparks entrapped there.This is what has made America so great. She has put hermoney where her mouth is and courageously entered the frayagainst those Orcs and tyrannical forces which have threatenedthe freedoms of the innocents.The only times we have failed at this is when we had fissuresin our collective will and didn't deal with the problem 100% ...Like we didn't in Somalia...like we didn't in Vietnam.If we were truly the UNITED States....not divided... but 100% intothe deterrence of tyranny, there would be no need for war in thefirst place."Be ye hot or be ye cold..."When will we have the courage to recognize our destiny as theleader of the world's impulse toward Freedom?Bravely seizing the scepter of power in order to lead in this is notthe same as a mere bullying arrogance.War is the result of our own fragmented intent, pictured outwardlyupon the screen of Creation.I'm sure I won't be changing your mind here Bradford, but I did feel theneed to at least attempt a deeper understanding of my non-fundamentalistposition.By the way, I just saw a Kurdish diplomat on TV relating the continuoustorture and subjugation from the hands of Saddam. This is no moreacceptable than the Taliban's torture of women, Milosevic's torturous barbarismagainst the Bosnians nor Hitler's massacres of the many millions upon his blackaltar.We must fearlessly approach Mt. Doom and face these shells whichseek to undermine The Love of the Christos.....and not bend to the sinistertemptation of mere appeasement.This is my view...and I understand that honest men and women can disagreeabout these things. I also understand that only history will tell if we were rightin our collective geo-political actions.But whether it be for war or for peace...I pray that we act as One Will inour movement. Only this can assure the victory of either path.As of now, it looks as if our congress and allies are coalescing behindtaking out Saddam. If this could be done without war, all the better....but be done it must. Saddamy cannot be toleratedThanks for reading this, my creative friend.Br. Ron
Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread, You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might not say (or have said) in a talk at theMessage 1 of 10 , Oct 7, 2002View SourceHello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread,
You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might
not say (or have said) in a talk at the Goetheanum about Islam and
Christianity, Mohammed and Christ. I have no direct answer to your
question, and neither can I comment directly on the controversial
Pietro Archiati's role in reporting this.--I can only say that it is
best to go to the source. Ibrahim Abouleish is, as far as I know (and
I know from a close friend, which is still second-hand knowing)
highly regarded in places in Egypt. His work at Sekem has been highly
praised and I have seen some of the results, when I lived in Africa
(biodynamic work, etc. in a large community). But check out Sekem
(Egypt's) website, and research more for yourself on Abouleish. I
know that he and another anthroposophic friend of mine are
translating the Koran...and I also read the statement from Sekem,
after 9/11, a statement of peace and good wishes to the U.S.
More at present I cannot say, but I do suggest you go to the source--
the Vorstand and Abouleish, not Archiat, even though he may be
--- In anthroposophy@y..., brocartmarc@a... wrote:
> Hello you all,
> I have read some days ago a leaflet issued seemingly by Pietro
> quoting the same lecture in connection with Dr Ibrahim Abuleish
> by the Vorstand to speak before the Goetheanum's audience in 1995
and 2001 at
> the "Religions of the world" session.
> In his book "Islam und Anthroposophie " issued at the Verlag am
> under the supervision of Virginia Sease, Dr Ibrahim Abuleish tries
> those two streams together . For him , Jesus was the bearer of the
> impulse and could then be called Jesus Christ, and Muhammad 700
> as the new bearer of the Christ impulse could then be called
> Abouleish's wiew implies the Second Coming of Christ was
Muhammad , and the
> goals of christianism to be fulfilled by islam.(!)
> Archiati states that if Abuleish is free to express what he
thinks , the
> Vorstand should not give audience to such an antinomy of
> Christianism, and moreover has to take a clear position , instead
> it a seal of authenticity.
> Has anyone heard of a statement of the Vorstand on this subject ?
> Best regards