... he ... often ... with ... Tomberg ... over ... Must be so. Although I have no affiliation to Tomberg, obviously you do, due to the catholic affinities.Message 1 of 111 , Jul 29, 2008View Source--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "carol" <organicethics@...>
> Jean-Marc: "...into a new renegade like Tomberg."
> Jean-Marc, I know that Steve evades answering directly to questions
> can't handle, uses many, many 'forms' to acheive this, flees, andoften
> makes his come backs by cleverly elevating himself above otherswith
> whom he feels vulnerable through insult etc, but to bring inTomberg
> and place his name next to Steve's , is in my humble opinion, goingover
> the edge.Must be so. Although I have no affiliation to Tomberg, obviously you
do, due to the catholic affinities. Well isn't that special? And
please explain the important parts above concerning my flaws and
caracter defects that make me so fallow of a person. Please do,
because I can't find it. So you'd better!
> Jean-Marc, you know, I've noticed all around me, and within myself
> there is a massive new quality of 'tension' to contend with. (Sarkozy's
> individuality is even being driven into our collective psyche overhere,
> I suspect by sinister means as well, the electo-magnetic spectrumis the
> elistist's newest 'playhouse', this I hope that you might havenoticed.
> ) The reason I bring this up is I thought you might want to checkto see
> that your desire to describe to Steve his shortcomings is not beingto 'tame' an
> overly influenced by your own individual plight of needing
> extremely pervasive 'chaotic element ' which inevitably resonateswithin
> yourself, but which has it's place within our shared 'ambient'physical
> and soul environment.I'd call it "ambivalent" in order to cohese your french soul
sentience; J-M, too. I hope this helps :-)
>Steve is, I think; although he contemplates the source of the
> (I'm not so sure that even Steve is attentive to this)
tension, cause and effect. He wonders just where he fits into the
teleology, coming from the middle position. You see, middle position
allows him to see youse two very well :-)
> As for Tomberg, I see no comparison. It seems to me that there was
> something far more organized and deeply spiritual taking place
> this man, as well, since the Anthroposophical Society of the day wasretract
> unable to 'host' all that this man had to offer, that he had to
> his soul forces and resort to sit with a less pertinent 'ethericstream'
> for the duration of his days. There is nothing arbritrary in humanlife,
> from a spiritual perspective, and so it would follow that an overallnot
> configuration representing Tomberg's lived destiny , might suggest
> so much an individual who simply experienced conflict with theinconvience, was
> Anthroposophical society and then went his way etc, but an extremely
> spiritualy furtile individual, who through accident and
> led 'on his way' to let fall living spiritual 'seeds' in areasoutside
> of the range of the society.As for Tomberg, there is no comparison, although I am more organized
than you'll ever know. Tomberg sold out to the catholic church
indeed, but that is because Marie Steiner sold him out. So what was
he supposed to do?
I, alas, follow my own lonely path; lonely, not isolated, which is
what you'd prefer. There's a difference, although I doubt you would
understand. Pass it on to your compadre.
... forces ... had ... the ... In this [second] kind of initiation the disciple s soul was drawn out of his inner being, whereby he could participate in theMessage 111 of 111 , Sep 6, 2008View Source
--- In email@example.com, "carol" <organicethics@...> wrote:
> I still find that `psychic life` development implies engaging the forces
> of the inner soul towards astral/devachanic inner
> perception/clairvoyance. A condition of sleep implies astral
> The second stream, requires an extroverted application. Experience is
> drawn outward- to face the world, all things manifest, to witness form
> and then further on, the `geometric` principal of astral determination
> . To view the workings of the living world is first and foremost to
> witness etheric forces furnishing mobility and multiplicity of form.
> Pride suggests a meeting with the outside manifest world. The pupil had
> at first, to disregard his inner `astral' experience in order
> to more solidly greet the manifest world- which is why I associated the
> body/etheric to this latter type of initiation.
> I see that there are different ways of looking at it- or would it be
> more correct to say- there`s a paradox to this.
In this [second] kind of initiation the disciple's soul was drawn out of his inner being, whereby he could participate in the events of the cosmos and raise himself to the soul-spiritual essence permeating the universe. His experience differed markedly from ordinary contemplation of nature because he felt he lived within the very soul of the universe. In not a bad but a good sense, he was beside himself. He was, though one hesitates to use this word because it has taken on an unpleasant connotation, in ecstasy. Upon achieving this union with the cosmos he could say to himself that through living in the universe and through experiencing its most intimate soul-spiritual forces, he had come to realize that everywhere the final goal of the cosmos is the creation of man. Did man not exist, the whole creation could not fulfill its end, because he was the meaning of the cosmos.
Carol, it is not possible to remove the Etheric Body from the physical body without death occurring immediately. Therefore, for this reason alone the second type of ancient mystery stream concerns the Astral Body. Consider all that the lecture: The Work of the Angels in Man's Astral Body gives as a point of further reference for what now takes place in the state of dreamless sleep. Dream sleep involves the etheric body and its close union with the physical body.
During sleeping we interact with the spiritual worlds when the astral-ego organization leaves the etheric-physical organization and engages its spiritual communion in the astral and higher devachanic realms. The ego, as such in our present development, is a silent witness to the work of the astral body in receiving the impressions of the angelic hierarchies, which are then carried down into the etheric body. Dreaming is an etheric activity conducted in middle devachan by the astral body, in which our past lives are traveled through and mixed in with the recent physical body experiences of the present life. Chaos is the general order of the dream experience, which is countered by the objectively ordered pictures of the waking conscious (relative) experience. Waking up from a dream is felt entirely in the etheric body as a present-moment experience of consciousness. As soon as the outer world is detected this consciousness sinks down into the subconscious and the dream is forgotten in favor of relative waking consciousness.
Practice can allow one to develop the ability to remain within the present-moment consciousness when first awakening as a meditative exercise. Spiritual science cultivates this desire to remain within the fold of the waking dream experience wherein many truths of independently investigated subjects are intuited and further inspired into imaginative content.
But as soon as the eyes and ears turn to the sense world, a buffer is created between the environment and the previously felt inner domain, and that which had just been on the surface sinks down into the famed "subconsciousness" of Freud.