Browse Groups

• Hello, I m new to the group and I m hoping someone here can help me out of this quandry I ve dug myself into. I ve been studying Tudor portraiture for years
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 3, 2002
View Source
Hello, I'm new to the group and I'm hoping someone here can
help me out of this quandry I've dug myself into.

I've been studying Tudor portraiture for years now, trying to figure
out how the French Hood was most likely constructed. The more
I think about it, the more it feels as though I'm grasping at
straws... I've done the regular method of making the French
Hood for long enough to know that about 99.9% of it's
construction is based upon pure conjecture (the "regular" way for
me consists of the seperate curved coronet piece being worn
over a coif with an attached hood in it's simplest form).

Now, for some reason I decided to have a browse through
Herbert Norris' _Tudor Fashion_ and his ideas of how the hood
was constructed have left me a bit confused. I understand his
reasoning for the early versions of the hood (one piece
construction with a portiion of the hood flipped back at the front to
form the "coronet"), but right about 1543, he switches gears and
begins to suggest that the construction of the hood became
seperated into three pieces (re: the "regular" way as described
above). Of course, Norris has to confuse the issue by making
references to his redrawings which seem to look virtually
identical to the earlier hood drawings he was insisting were
constructed as a single unit! Understandably, you have to be
familiar with French Hoods and Norris to understand my
frustration on this matter...

But what I'd like to know is if someone out there can give me one
really good reason why I should believe what I was taught and
stick with the three piece construction of the hood (that would be:
coif, coronet, hood with the billiments added)? I'm trying
desperately to figure out a plausable construction for the hood in
this portrait:
http://homepage.mac.com/lithiate/images/1543/unknownfull.jpg
and I'd appreciate *any* help/suggestions/encouragement that
anyone has to offer. :)

Sarah Lorraine
the totally desperate
• I was wondering if anyone had a site that I could look at Russain hats for men. Thank you tsara
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 3, 2002
View Source
I was wondering if anyone had a site that I could look at Russain hats for
men.
Thank you
tsara
• While I am sure that there are true experts on the subject out there, I have wondered and mused about the same subject repeatedly, i.e., were there actually
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 4, 2002
View Source
While I am sure that there are true experts on the subject out
there, I have wondered and mused about the same subject repeatedly,
i.e., were there actually French hoods with the coronet pieces
attached? Can anyone post any link/files with portraits that
clearly have the coronet piece?

Most of the French hoods just look like caps to me, with the
billiments added. The cap you show on the link looks *to me* as if
it sticks out further on the back of her head, giving sort of an
optical illusion of a coronet piece if you look at it a certain
way. It seems to sit on her head like an extremely truncated
hennin-like angle.

On another note, the Mill End store in Portland is carrying the
gold pre-pleated trim, similar to that trim shown on the cap on
your link - it's manufactured by Wrights. I wrote the number down,
but lost the piece of paper. So, I must make another trip to the
fabric store - oh woe!

Mistress Katheryne of Hindscroft of An Tir has made a wonderful
hood in a similar fashion, and the gold pleating in the front is
*perfect*. I am going to write her and ask her how she did it and
ask if I can cross post.

Katherine

Katrine de Saint Brieuc

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 02:13:10 -0000

><html><body>
>
>
><tt>
>Hello, I'm new to the group and I'm hoping someone here can <BR>
>help me out of this quandry I've dug myself into.  <BR>
><BR>
>I've been studying Tudor portraiture for years now, trying to
figure <BR>
>out how the French Hood was most likely constructed.  The more
<BR>
>I think about it, the more it feels as though I'm grasping at <BR>
>straws... I've done the regular method of making the French <BR>
>Hood for long enough to know that about 99.9% of it's <BR>
>construction is based upon pure conjecture (the "regular" way for
<BR>
>me consists of the seperate curved coronet piece being worn <BR>
>over a coif with an attached hood in it's simplest form).  <BR>
><BR>
>Now, for some reason I decided to have a browse through <BR>
>Herbert Norris' _Tudor Fashion_ and his ideas of how the hood <BR>
>was constructed have left me a bit confused.  I understand his
<BR>
>reasoning for the early versions of the hood (one piece <BR>
>construction with a portiion of the hood flipped back at the front
to <BR>
>form the "coronet"), but right about 1543, he switches gears and
<BR>
>begins to suggest that the construction of the hood became <BR>
>seperated into three pieces (re:  the "regular" way as described
<BR>
>above).  Of course, Norris has to confuse the issue by making <BR>
>references to his redrawings which seem to look virtually <BR>
>identical to the earlier hood drawings he was insisting were <BR>
>constructed as a single unit!  Understandably, you have to be <BR>
>familiar with French Hoods and Norris to understand my <BR>
>frustration on this matter...<BR>
><BR>
>But what I'd like to know is if someone out there can give me one
<BR>
>really good reason why I should believe what I was taught and <BR>
>stick with the three piece construction of the hood (that would
be: <BR>
>coif, coronet, hood with the billiments added)?  I'm trying <BR>
>desperately to figure out a plausable construction for the hood in
<BR>
>this portrait: <BR>
><a
href="http://homepage.mac.com/lithiate/images/1543/unknownfull.jpg"
<BR>
>and I'd appreciate *any* help/suggestions/encouragement that <BR>
>anyone has to offer.  :)<BR>
><BR>
>Sarah Lorraine<BR>
>the totally desperate<BR>
><BR>
></tt>
>
><br>
>
><!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
>
><tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
><td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups
></tr>
><tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font face=arial
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=213858.1879370.3379539.1261774/D=egroup
web/S=1705767503:HM/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.t
f?s=5085" target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/cl/classmates_com2/bll_lre
c1.gif" alt="" width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
></tr>
><tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
4/D=egroupmail/S=1705767503:HM/A=763352/rand=132829509"></td></tr>
></table>
>
><!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
>
>
><br>
><tt>
>  Post message: SCA-Milliners@onelist.com<BR>
>  Subscribe:    SCA-Milliners-subscribe@onelist.com<BR>
>  Unsubscribe:  SCA-Milliners-unsubscribe@onelist.com<BR>
>  List owner:   SCA-Milliners-owner@onelist.com<BR>
><BR>
>  <a
href="http://www.onelist.com/community/SCA-Milliners">http://www.on
elist.com/community/SCA-Milliners</a></tt>
><br>
>
><br>
><tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of
Service</a>.</tt>
></br>
>
></body></html>
>
>
• 1: don t trust Norris on any details. 2: Find someone who has a copy of Queen Elizabeth s Wardrobe Unlocked. It does have some hat information, and lots of
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 5, 2002
View Source
1: don't trust Norris on any details.
2: Find someone who has a copy of Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked.
It does have some hat information, and lots of pictures.

cv
typing fast, the babes are crying....

--
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pré Argent

It takes a village -- to raise a new mother.
• ... Holy Cow! That s a really good idea, actually! I know I was casually tossing around the theory of the hood being decended from the lapets of the
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 5, 2002
View Source
--- In SCA-Milliners@y..., "Katherine Barich" <wheezul@c...> wrote:
>
> Most of the French hoods just look like caps to me, with the
> billiments added. The cap you show on the link looks *to me* as if
> it sticks out further on the back of her head, giving sort of an
> optical illusion of a coronet piece if you look at it a certain
> way. It seems to sit on her head like an extremely truncated
> hennin-like angle.

Holy Cow! That's a really good idea, actually! I know I was
casually tossing around the theory of the hood being decended from
the lapets of the truncated henin, but that actually makes a lot of
sense if there is a more truncated version of the truncated hennin
(hopefully you're following me here) beneath the hood that acts as a
support!

Katherine, you've just opened the door to a whole new way of
thinking... :)

> On another note, the Mill End store in Portland is carrying the
> gold pre-pleated trim, similar to that trim shown on the cap on
> your link - it's manufactured by Wrights. I wrote the number down,
> but lost the piece of paper. So, I must make another trip to the
> fabric store - oh woe!

Cool! I've never seen that pleated trim in anything other than white
rayon. Being in California, it might be kind of long roadtrip to get
there, but I'll call them and see if they can ship me some. I wonder
if they have a website...?

Anyhoo, you've helped me more than you probably realize. I'd love to
hear what Mistress Katherine thinks... Thanks! :D

Sarah Lorraine
• ... Well, when you ve been hitting a brick wall on the topic, sometimes it s good to get a different perspective. Makes you rethink things. ;) I take Norris
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 5, 2002
View Source
--- In SCA-Milliners@y..., Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...> wrote:
> 1: don't trust Norris on any details.

Well, when you've been hitting a brick wall on the topic,
sometimes it's good to get a different perspective. Makes you
rethink things. ;) I take Norris with a ton of salt, but this just
struck me as somehow plausable...

> 2: Find someone who has a copy of Queen Elizabeth's
Wardrobe Unlocked.
> It does have some hat information, and lots of pictures.

I own the book, and have combed it cover to cover several times
looking for more clues as to how the french hood was
constructed, but Janet Arnold is rather mute on the topic. And the
pictures are largely unhelpful as they're the same ones I've been
staring at now for the last year or so...

So at this point, I'm open to anything, no matter how crazy. :)

> typing fast, the babes are crying....

Sarah Lorraine
• ... Oh, sorry, to be more precise, I meant blind trust. If you ve looked at a bunch of sources and he has another take that makes sense to you with your
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 6, 2002
View Source
>>1: don't trust Norris on any details.

>I take Norris with a ton of salt, but this just
> struck me as somehow plausable...

Oh, sorry, to be more precise, I meant "blind trust." If you've looked
at a bunch of sources and he has another take that makes sense to you

cv
• Hi- I don t know if these will help, because I haven t actually tried it out myself yet, but here s some sites that at least look helpful.
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 15, 2002
View Source
Hi-

I don't know if these will help, because I haven't actually tried it
out myself yet, but here's some sites that at least "look" helpful.

http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/frenchhood.html

Let us know how your project works out...

Cyneswith

--- In SCA-Milliners@y..., "sarah_de_lorraine" <rynegade@a...> wrote:
> Hello, I'm new to the group and I'm hoping someone here can
> help me out of this quandry I've dug myself into.
>
> I've been studying Tudor portraiture for years now, trying to
figure
> out how the French Hood was most likely constructed.
• A question that I ve been pondering regarding the french hood is this - if the earlier period styles, circa Henry VIII, had a strap that went beneath the chin
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 16, 2002
View Source
A question that I've been pondering regarding the french hood is this -
if the earlier period styles, circa Henry VIII, had a strap that went
beneath the chin to hold it on (which can usually be found by peering
closely at the lower edge of the hood and the beginning of the jawline,
and is always white), what held on the later styles, which sit further
back on the head and thereby preclude the convenience of a chinstrap?

Does the hair shift position, rising up the back of the head, thereby
forming a little rolled shelf for the later-period styles to be pinned to
or lean against? There has to be some form of anchorage besides a lone
comb keeping the weight of a middle-period french hood and veil on. The
late-period styles, preferred by Elizabeth I can easily be sat at the
back of the head without fear of the veil pulling it off, as the veils
tended to be light airy silken things, so I think that the shape of the
billiment keeps it on.

There are clear examples of this on the URL provided by Cyneswith

And I personally feel that the gold pleated ribbon is the edging or body
itself of an under-layer cap, at least in the early years of the style,
and that these earlier period hoods are built up with multi-layed caps of
varying sizes and shapes. If the hygene was as appalling as we know it to
be, what self-respecting noblewoman would want her exquisite (and
expensive!) cap destroyed by contact with dirty hair, when a coif has
been available for centuries?

If a plain white linen coif has a chinstrap to bear the weight of the
approaching gold and jewels, and the succeeding layers are pinned on.....

Danabren

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
• ... is this - ... peering ... jawline, ... further ... chinstrap? I had an interesting theory suggested to me by one of the UK costumers that frequents
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 22, 2002
View Source
--- In SCA-Milliners@y..., danabren@j... wrote:
>
> A question that I've been pondering regarding the french hood
is this -
> if the earlier period styles, circa Henry VIII, had a strap that went
> beneath the chin to hold it on (which can usually be found by
peering
> closely at the lower edge of the hood and the beginning of the
jawline,
> and is always white), what held on the later styles, which sit
further
> back on the head and thereby preclude the convenience of a
chinstrap?

I had an interesting theory suggested to me by one of the UK
costumers that frequents H-Costume a few weeks back. She
suggested that anyone with at least shoulder length hair can
plait it into two braids, criss cross them at the top of the head
and secure them there with bobby pins. Then, the coif is put on,
followed by the paste (what we think of as the "coronet" piece),
which according to her wasn't a stiffened seperate piece, but she
was kind of vague about the exact nature of it, and lastly, the
"hood" part is pinned to the ridge made by the braids and
accented by the billiaments. Theoretically, the more hair the
woman has, the higher she can pile her hair for a taller "coronet".
And of course there is always the option of false hair pieces...

This is an intreguing theory (which she admitted wasn't
necessarily the be-all and end-all of french hood methods),
considering that it does eliminate the need for the chinstrap and
all... But it seems to me that it would be rather uncomfortable to
have that much weight supported by your hair, particularly if you
had a sensitive scalp. And my hair likes to laugh at braids,
personally. No amount of bobby pins could tame it into
submission (it's waist length, fine, thick and has major behavior
problems). The pictures she sent to me of her outfit with her hair
prepared in this fashion were very accurite looking, so there's at
least visual support for this idea being practical.
>
> Does the hair shift position, rising up the back of the head,
thereby
> forming a little rolled shelf for the later-period styles to be
pinned to
> or lean against?

Aside from the method I just described, I've actually braided my
hair in this fashion for my previous french hoods, to act as a
support for the paste. In my experience, however, the braids
eventually creep back down my head and disrupt the delicate
balance of the heavy hood so that it starts to fall off the back of
my head. The only thing that saves it usually is that I make them
with chin straps, because I am paranoid about losing my

Another friend of mine suggested pinning throught the paste to
the hair with straight pins to keep the hood on the head. It works
for her, apparently, but she's got more hair than she knows what
to do with...

> There has to be some form of anchorage besides a lone
> comb keeping the weight of a middle-period french hood and
veil on. The
> late-period styles, preferred by Elizabeth I can easily be sat at
the
> back of the head without fear of the veil pulling it off, as the veils
> tended to be light airy silken things, so I think that the shape of
the
> billiment keeps it on.

I think those later period hats were simply the paste portion of
the original french hood, that was either wired with enough
tension to grip the head, or was judiciously pinned to the hair as
before. Whatever the case, I don't think they were quite as heavy
as a french hood, but since I've never attempted to make and
wear one, I can't say for sure...

> And I personally feel that the gold pleated ribbon is the edging
or body
> itself of an under-layer cap, at least in the early years of the
style,
> and that these earlier period hoods are built up with
multi-layed caps of
> varying sizes and shapes.

I agree. In the early, pre-french hood years, there is a style of
hood that appears to be a precurser to the french hood and
several depictions of it show a wide, loosely pleated gold frill at
the front edge. The frill in most cases is about 2 inches wide,
accordion pleated and almost looks as though it is an entire cap
of some sort. Again, since I haven't attempted this style, I can't
say for sure. But it is apparent that the evolution of this hood
morphs into the french hood around 1510 or so and the pleated
frill begins to get smaller and more tightly pleated as the years
progress. I'm placing my bets on it being attached to a coif by
this point

> If a plain white linen coif has a chinstrap to bear the weight of
the
> approaching gold and jewels, and the succeeding layers are
pinned on.....

Sounds about right as far as I'm concerned. :)

Sarah
• ... figure out how the French Hood was most likely constructed. Forgive me for being dilatory in replying to your query. That ikky Real Life has been
Message 1 of 11 , Mar 24, 2002
View Source
--- In SCA-Milliners@y..., "sarah_de_lorraine" <rynegade@a...> wrote:
> I've been studying Tudor portraiture for years now, trying to
figure > out how the French Hood was most likely constructed.

Forgive me for being dilatory in replying to your query. That ikky
Real Life has been getting in the way of my true calling.

Anyway, I think you are on the right track in your speculations on
the French Hood. I believe that whenever we look at images of women
from our time period with a view to understanding their

I came across a wonderful article by Lady Faoiltighearna inghean mhic
Ghuaire on Renaissance hair taping. I recommend that you read it and
especially look at the 16th century French examples on the second
page of examples. The articl is at
http://www.mfgraffix.com/hird/faoilt/hairtape.html

If you consider the structure of the English or Gable hood, you
notice the "turban roll" at the hairline. I am a believer in the
theory that the hair was braided, wrapped in fabric and criscrossed
at the hairline to provide support for the gable and its bilament.

As the English adopted the French style hood that revealed the hair,
they most likely continued to braid the back hair and tape it to the
head in the manner of the French and Italians.

When you consider the cost of drawing wire at the time, the cost of
pins and needles was very high. Grammer Gurton's Needle, a 16th
century farce, turns on the loss of the only needle owned by a well-
to-do woman. With that as a clue, it seems reasonable that hairpins,
those cheap and plentiful items of 19th and 20th century hairdressing
would have been prohibitively expensive for most women to use to pin
up their hair.

Hair taping gives a very firm base upon which to anchor a hood, and
allows the hair to be bound into place on the back of the head in a
way that is comfortable and secure.

The issues you raise about the parts of the hood that are visible are
correct. We are not looking at one single piece, but at (at least)
two caps and a veil - often referred to as a curtain.

Go back to the fifteenth century and look at the "Anne of Brittany"
style hood that is the direct ancestor of the French hood. Good
examples are to be found in portraits by the Master of Moulins,
Gerard David and others of that time.

If you have this year's (2002) Medieval Woman calendar, there is a
wonderful enlargement of David's Wedding at Cana where you can
clearly see the two caps and the hood on the lady in the right
foreground.

I apologize for the rambling-ness of this post, and I hope it is of
some use to you.

Katharine of Cate Hall
Kingdom and Barony of Atenveldt
Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.
• Changes have not been saved
Press OK to abandon changes or Cancel to continue editing
• Your browser is not supported
Kindly note that Groups does not support 7.0 or earlier versions of Internet Explorer. We recommend upgrading to the latest Internet Explorer, Google Chrome, or Firefox. If you are using IE 9 or later, make sure you turn off Compatibility View.