... Thanks for all this Robert.I will study it carefully. I am certainly very interested in your notes - but you might need to add some explanantions One thingSep 3, 2002 1 of 75View Source---
Thanks for all this Robert.I will study it carefully. I am certainly
very interested in your notes - but you might need to add some
One thing that occurs to me when I study the latinate phrases is why
are they used at all. Why not use the pali grammatical terms . For
those of us who didn't study latin most of the words are new so it is
just as easy to learn the pali equivalents. Is it because most of the
Pali readers such as Warder use them - and so we need them to
comprehend these texts- or are the English terms more precise or
In Pali@y..., Robert Eddison <robedd@i...> wrote:
> Robert Kirkpatrick:than
> >Dear Frank,
> >What I find worrying is that I (seem to) understand this better
> >I do ablatives, feminine demonstrative pronouns etc. used todescribe
> >I would really appreciate it if Robert Eddison or Dimitry could
> >us all hints about the english Metalanguage of Pali grammar(please?)
> >when discussing points.grammatical
> Dear Robert,
> I am prepared to do so when the terms in question refer to
> items that have no parallel in the English language or which areconcerned
> with more advanced topics. If I ever start writing about bahubbiihiand
> dvanda compounds, or methods of forming primary and secondaryderivatives
> from verbal roots, I will certainly explain the terms I'm using.posting to
> If the members are interested, I should also be willing to start
> the list the grammar notes that I made while studying theSaddaniiti with
> Sayadaw Dhammananda. The Saddaniiti, by the 13th century Burmesegrammarian
> Aggava.msa, is considered the most thorough of the old Paligrammars. Much
> of its content afaik is not available in English even in summaryform.
> However, regarding elementary terms such as 'noun', 'adjective', and
> even 'feminine demonstrative pronoun' I tend to assume that those
> part in this list have either already acquired the tools of thetrade, or,
> are prepared to make the effort to do so. So...website:
> For those unfamiliar with grammatical jargon I would recommend the
> Although it is concerned with English grammar, nevertheless if you
> all the links you will find easy to understand explanations of mostof the
> terms commonly used when analysing a Pali passage, e.g.the meaningsof the
> different parts of speech, the difference between personal,demonstrative,
> reflexive, intensive, relative, interrogative and indefinitepronouns, the
> types of participle etc.are
> The main thing lacking is an account of the grammatical cases which
> found in Pali but not in English (e.g. it won't tell youwhat 'ablative'
> To fill in this gap you might start with...
> which gives very short and simple definitions of the eight cases
> actually from a Sanskrit course, but that's okay as Sanskrit hasthe same
> eight cases as Pali). Then you could move on to...which each
> which goes into more detail, covering the more important ways in
> case is used. This is from Ven. Naarada's "Elementary Pali Course".ought to
> All of the above will not take more than two or three hours and
> provide an adequate basis for understanding most of what isdiscussed on
> this list.these terms
> On a final note, though the latinate grammatical terms may appear
> intimidating at first sight, more often than not the ideas that
> represent are very simple. Take the case of 'feminine instrumentalpronoun
> demonstrative pronoun'. This is shorthand for a demonstrative
> representing a noun that is of feminine gender and is inflected inthe
> instrumental case. So...for
> A *pronoun* is a word used in place of a noun that has already been
> mentioned or is assumed. The noun replaced is referred to as the
> *antecedent*. In the sentence "Devadatta likes snakes. He eats THEM
> breakfast," the antecedent noun 'Devadatta' is replaced by thepronoun
> If a pronoun is *demonstrative* it means that it points out or
> persons or things. The main ones in Englishare 'this', 'that', 'these',
> and 'those'.is
> "THESE are the snakes Devadatta prefers, not THOSE."
> If the noun replaced by the pronoun is *feminine*, then the pronoun
> feminine too. One can't give an example in English, since theEnglish words
> 'this' and 'that' don't provide any indication of gender.said that
> If we say 'BY this', 'WITH this' or 'BY MEANS OF this' then it is
> we are using a demonstrative pronoun in the *instrumental* case.demonstrative
> To conclude, here is an example of a feminine instrumental
> Atthi kho pha.niisuupo naama sudhaa. *Taaya* so Devadatto atimatta.m
> bhu~njitvaa piivaro ahosi.
> "There is a delicacy called 'cobra curry'; *by means of this*
> eating too much, grew fat."
> Best wishes,
Here is an updated version in which I ve clarified the Bahubbiihi section: *_Compound Algorithm:_* It can sometimes be difficult to know which type of compoundOct 21, 2005 75 of 75View SourceHere is an updated version in which I've clarified the Bahubbiihi section:
It can sometimes be difficult to know which type of compound we are
dealing with. Here is an algorithm that can help you to figure out the
compound type. When you think that you have found the correct compound,
consult the above compound guide to double check:
*1.* If the compound is composed only of numbers as members and the
first number is larger than the second then it is a dvanda; if the
second number is larger then it is a digu.
*2.* If the compound starts with a number and is followed by a
non-numeral, there are two possibilities. If the two members would be in
the same case if they were to be separated, then the compound is a digu;
if the two members would be in different cases, then it is a tappurisa.
*3.* If the compound starts with an indeclinable that qualifies a
following noun in the compound, and the whole compound is acting as an
adverb, the compound is an avyayiibhaava.
*4.* For all other compounds, try to determine the case of the last
member as well as what the case of the first member would have been, had
it not been compounded with the last.
· If the cases would certainly differ, see 5 below
· If the cases would certainly be the same, see 6 below
· If it is impossible to tell for sure, see 7 below
*5. * If the cases certainly differ, then it is a tappurisa compound.
*6.* If the cases would certainly be the same, then it is a
kammadhaaraya or a dvanda. A dvanda will have two or more words that
don’t qualify each other but are simply being added together as with the
word “and” between them. In a kammadhaaraya, however, the first member
of the compound will help to qualify the final member.
*7. *If it is impossible to tell the cases of the parts of the compound,
then it may be a tappurisa or kammadhaaraya compound and context and
doctrinal familiarity should be your guide to figuring out the solution.
Not all compounds are easily analyzed.
*8.* If you have a compound that fits the “type” of one of the above
compounds but the last member is a noun, or is used as a noun, but yet
this last member is agreeing (case, gender, number) with an external
noun as would an adjective, regardless of its normal gender, etc., then
you are dealing with a Bahubbiihi compound. Such a compound will have an
extocentric focus and be "possessed" by an external noun rather than
having a relationship to it via simple apposition.
Please see the above sections on compounds for more thorough information.