dear friends i thought that
this is a nice chat that some may like...
with love and respect
Merry Christmas to all...
and be safe in the new year...
bindu: Namaste how are
sadhu: Hello I'm doing
pretty well. I was just reading your Bhairava tantra and also seeing how the
version I have compares.
sadhu: I have the Swami
Stysangananda Saraswati version called The Ascent.
bindu: mm. i have not seen
sadhu: I don't
understand either of them very well in places.
bindu: how long have you
been into yoga?
sadhu: I like the methods
that expand spaciality. I have been meditating since 1971, but wish I had made
more progress. About 35 years.
bindu: mm... can i ask your
sadhu: When I began, I
meditated a lot, about 8-12 hours a day and did that for about 10-12 years. Then
about 1-3 hours per day after that. I'm 60 years old.
bindu: mm... i see.. do
yoiu have children ... married. etc?
sadhu: Married. No
children. Wife also meditates.
bindu: uhuh, where in the
world do you live?
sadhu: I'm living in
bindu: what is your
profession in your life?
sadhu: In school, I majored
in engineering physics, but didn't work as an engineer long. Before that, I
played music. Now, my wife and I teach Quantum-Touch, a method of
bindu: ah! excellent.... so
hence the focus on method (your interest in bhairava ) what instrument do you
sadhu: I play guitar, sing,
recorder, a little keyboard, etc. Yes, I feel like I could have made more
progress if I had understood more how to practice.
bindu: mmm: so i take it
you had no formal teachers in yoga that is...
sadhu: I first did the TM
thing and took it as far as it went, with the siddhis, etc. Then I read and met
Ramamurti Mishra, then studied a bit with Sharon O'Hara, but was difficult to
understand her methods. I also met and took some teachings from Ravi Shankar,
bindu: uhuh, i don't know
of sharon o'hara
bindu: Have you studied
sadhu: Sharon and Patrick
O'Hara (patrick deceased) was instructed by Yogananda's teacher from the other
bindu: mmm,: i
sadhu: I read your version
of the Shiva sutra just recently and liked it. The 3 sections of it. I have also
read the Gita of course and the Bhagavatam, a version from Motilal
bindu: mmm. So would you
say you resonate somewhat with the idea of krishna, and or the existence of
sadhu: Yes. I resonate with
Krishna and existence of deity. Mishra gave me the name Shri Rama Govinda, but I
don't use it in this society, but it confirms my interest in that form. I also
like Shiva for his compassion.
I have noticed with all the
teachers that have been teaching, and all of the students, that not many have
reached the goal, or even it seems made much progress.
bindu: oh yes that is very
true and often quite sad. Have you read or studied the
sadhu: Yes, my wife and I
are reading the Ramacharita Manasa in the evenings at bedtime. It's Tulisidas'
version of the Ramayana. She hasn't read it before, but we are slowly going
bindu: excellent.... do you
know, that like the Gita ... it is about the inner-quest to free the soul from
sadhu: Yes, although it
appears to be stories. It seems to be interpreted as Rama (spirit) and Sita
(manifestation) in a play.
bindu: yes. Just as in
vaisnaivism there are referrences to Radhe and Krishna (same idea again) in fact
this idea runs thru-out all hindu works.. The following and practice of which
comprise hinduism ( the Hindu's themselves know it as the Sanatan-Dharma
)... many many ways to refer to the same dual-nature of being and
sadhu: Yes, lately I've
been on YouTube listening to Nithyananda talk on the Bhairava Tantra. But he's
just getting started. I was looking for some good translations so I could
understand and choose a program of methods to move me forward
bindu: mm, i
sadhu: I was trying to
discover which methods are the easiest and most fruitful and which ones could be
combined. Mishra used to say that combined methods bring combined power. Also
which sequence would be most successful.
bindu: Have you ever seen
or read anything by Ramana Maharshi?
sadhu: No, not that I
remember. Maybe in a bookstore.
bindu: mm. how about
sadhu: I presume you mean
Ramana Maharishi. I have seen photos, but I wasn't drawn to him at the
sadhu: Did he write on the
bindu: No i think not...
his focus was mainly on one-on-one and simple direct and pithy
I must appologize for all
these questions they are intended to get a feel for the composition of
your understanding as regards the philosophy ..
sadhu: I didn't get to
pursue all the teachers. I tried to stay with the ones I learned from as far as
I could go. But maybe I should have been more eclectic. I've read many of the
eastern and western scriptures and I feel like I understand them. I am just not
yet at the experience of them.
sadhu: I found Misra's
"Textbook of Yoga Psychology" (Patanjli's Yoga Sutras) and "Fundamentals of
Yoga" to be the best I have read so far. Now I am learning about Tantra which I
had discarded before, being told it was mostly a lower, sex oriented method. I
did not understand the higher Tantra.
sadhu: In your experience,
what are the most valuable methods of practice?
bindu: Well, in all the
books you have read there is an underlying thread running thru all - the thread
is one -pointedness; either expressed as single devotion or as persistence in
one form or another.
bindu: My path is about
one-pointed use of the WILL in a certain way... it is a path that is all
inclusvie or integral..
sadhu: Play has not been a
big part of it. And Tantra seems to endorse bliss and play more. How does WILL
sadhu: I presume you mean
will, not as effort or force. Tantra doesn't seem to endorse force very
bindu: Well Siva sutra Siva
says that ... "By non-contemplation of ME are you bound"
bindu: so the path is about
developing the Will to remain in constant meditation upon the indwelling self
(Siva) even while going about in everday life; this results in freedom in all
modes of consciousness; but make no mistake it is HE who is free it is not the
sadhu: Yes, it seems that
we have to become as familiar with consciousness as we are with matter. How is
WILL applied to remain absorbed in Self?
bindu: This Self-absorption
is called sahaj samadhi, the emphasis is not upon the bliss-consciousness <
as this bliss is the mind-body reaction to the connection... it is not the
realization the challenge is to remain free in all modes of consciousness (again
Siva Sutra Says" HE" (Siva) " is free in all modes of His own
This freedom is got by
developing the Will to remain in the Self. The Will in all of us is what the
sutra calls the iiccha-Sakti. Developing this one-pointedness is the most
powerful, best and fastest way to realization.
sadhu: I understand Turiya
as the state underlying all states. I experience some degree of this continuity.
What exactly is will? What is WILL?
bindu: mmm. Well normally
people say "MY WILL" as if it belongs to the jiva.......... (to who they think
or define themselves as)
sadhu: Yes, and willpower
is the assersion of commitment. But I think you are referring to something
bindu: they even say "MY
MIND" as if there is another who HAS a mind .......... my body my arm, my
emotion, my love, my heart ...... and so on . as if there is another . they say
'i" "me" mine" etc... that one that is referred to in all those lines above is
the ego... the jiva . the so-called individual soul.....
sadhu: Yes. I understand
the nature of the small self and it's narrow identification.
bindu: But dear since there
is no such thing as a self that is separate from THE SELF, the little self is an
illusion hence so is the limited will. For example the sutra says that by
referrence to himself as jiva-self.... "HE (Siva) is limited in both will and
sadhu: Yes. But how to
plug into the Will of the higher Self?
bindu: The 1st step is to
come to understand how the jiva does not exist as any-self aware being or
existent entity then we can move on.. but until this is fully understood and
accepted we can only go arond in circles....
sadhu: Yes, I understand
that it is an illusion covering the higher Self. The sense of separateness is
not real. But it is experienced as "real".
bindu: mm. so then if
you are willing i would like to introduce you to some concepts which are really
sadhu: Yes, I would like new concepts.
bindu: if you find them to your liking we can proceed
to erase the problem in your sadhana.
sadhu: I'm looking at the page, be right
bindu: However it is my experience that most people have
the flaw of thinking that they (themselves) can realize the truth... that is
sadhu: I will have to take some time with the page. I do
understand the the jiva is Spirit and that jiva doesn't realize Spirit, but
becomes IT when the obstacles, the mis-identification ceases.
bindu: good good... but the jiva does not BECOME it
dissolves into the whole like ice in water.
sadhu: How to break that false identification with
bindu: You cannot ..It is like unto being in a room that
has no doors.. there is no way out.
sadhu: Yes, I like the idea and experience of melting into
bindu: the only way out is IN -- how to do
bindu: 1st no one can do anything.. so then one never DID
anything ... going inward one sees that all this is inside The Self.... it is
displayed in HIS conscious being AS His
There are 1st the emotional levels which get more and more
sublte then we come to the astral planes... ALL within HIM.u: then we see that
there is no physical world at all.. it is in fact all spirit. then we see that
it is emanating from His conscious being; in fact His being is also existing as
consciousNESS which takes the form of a universal light body all within His
CONSCIOUS Absolute < i am not saying absolute consciousNESS as that is an
incorrect way to think of it ... as if his conscious being were an aspect or
attribute of somehting else for example consciousNESS is had by or noticed by
some being or other; while the conscious absolute is an open ended oneness that
is infinite which has existence displayed within it like a dream or multiplicit
reflection of its own nature (omniscient omnipresence which is the definition of
an infinite being) in short existence IS ITS ACTUAL CONSCIOUSNESS while it
itself is beyond consciousness. Hence the referrence to SELF which is made by
saying my this or that or I AM this or that is implied in the
sadhu: So there is this Conscious Presence which is
the container of everything. And this conscious presence creates consciousness
upon which this world is a projection made out of the same stuff.
bindu: Not exactly correct.What you say is correct, but
there is a slight error..
The conscious ever present transcendental being does NOT
ACTUALLY CREATE, as if by an act of WILL; existence exists AS it... it simply
comes into being as a result of the existence of the Self.... the Self does
nothing. thus also the karma that is said to belong to a being is not belonging
to that being at all, it belongs to the Self, the karma simply m,akes the jiva
what he is and gives him his nature... additionally since the karma of all
beings belongs to the self so also does the Kriya and the jnana.
For example in gita Krishna says : "Oh Arjun, all
things exist IN MY POTENCY". His existence in Himself prior to the
Smanifestation of existence is comprised of HIS potency or potential... <
this is his omnipotent WIll or as Siva sutra calls it " It is HIS iiicchaa -
sakti (Will potency and power).
This shines forth AS existence, it is also called
tejesa .... it begins as the nila-bindu and by multiplicit reflection within
itself and within each reflected particle of the 1st it builds up the whole
cosmos ... it just IS.
Then what exists, exists - because He appears in it AS it;
it is named the mother or radhe or such. Another example is that in upanishad,
it is said He created the world and sent His sakti into all of existence as the
female he then decended to the world and fornicated with her in all
This means that the wWill and consciousness create existence.
The consciousness is called sri tripura
given a female aspect ... the Will is
Siva existing in ALL beings.
bindu: Sita (the soul) is seen as His female... God made
eve from Adams rib etc..
bindu: So then when we practice the high tantra. we can
use visualization of gods making love inside us thru our bodies..... or we can
use the one-pointed focus of directing the WIll to the self itself.
The latter removes the jiva from the picture, while
visualization of the gods is to remain an observer existing as jiva and is hence
sadhu: So how is the Will applied to resolve the false
identification and allow the Conscious Being to shine forth as us? What is the
"method" that causes "directing the Will" to the self.
bindu: 1st we have to understand that THE WILL so - to
- speak IS NOT OURS..... hence it is NOT "THE WE" who directs it...
to let go of the ridiculous idea that WE (the jeeva ) have free
sadhu: Yes, the WILL is not an attribute of the small
self. Yet, something must allow this WILL to become active.
bindu: yes... we will see...To come at an answer to this i
will come at it indirectly.......
We said earlier that the iichaa-sakti manifests
existence as a matter of course simply because HE exists... that sakti enters
all beings as the WILL .. .the WILL impels the jiva to evolve to the realization
of Himself.... this causes ALL evolution... physical, spiritual and genetic....
it manifests as the countless beings in both form and nature.... on all levels
and lokas (this is how he is omnipresent and omniscient ... knowing Himself on
all levels thru all beings )...... hence it does NOT BECOME active..... it IS
bindu: so then when the sahdu is ready He will come and make the
jiva reflect His wisdom in a certain way so that the mirror shows Him His true
sadhu: Yes, so how do we as "jiva" cooperate with the
Divine to allow this transformation?
You have reached this evolutionary state.... hence here we
are. So then the how of it is this>>>
1st understand that no process, method, practice... or
attitude that the jiva can employ will assist him
bindu: he has to totally
give up all ideas that he (the jiva) can achieve it .... because the very idea
is an oxymoron.
Jiva wants to be free, but to be free he has to lose his
limited beingness or die to the idea that HE IS JIVA.So then he has to teach his
mind to reside in the Self.... but that too is very difficult ... because the
mind and jiva arise simultaneously - they are like conjoint-twins.
So then...... now we come to the indirect part. let us
take a step back.
1st we should notice that HE who IS INSIdE ALL beings
....... is the only one who speaks...... it is HE who says "i" "me" "mine" or "i
am " etc.... there is NO such being as the jiva saying this..... indeed the
referred to being (who is indicated in all the above references as if it were an
entity) is the jiva.... hence the jiva cannot refer to himself.
So then, the "I AM" who exist in all beings IS ACTUALLY
SIVA or THE SELF! So to come at it indirectly we should approach the one-pointed
focus with this understanding.
We must come to accept THE SELF AS SELF instead of
suscribing to Jiva as Self.
bindu: We do this by Japa of a mantra that states this
fact.... in short we simply reprogram the minds idea of selfhood via positive
and affirmative statements..hence mantra.
bindu: Again due to the fact that the Self in all is THE
SELF,there can be no free WILL owned by jiva... hence it is the WILL of the Self
that is employed in the one pointedness to recognize Himself.So it is the actual
implementation of self recognition. This is the essence of
sadhu: i do not exist, SHIVA, SELF exists and operates
through this body.
bindu: Yes, and thru all
bindu: So then,all the dahrana's in the tantra lead to
the recogntition that the WILL must be employed to do the practice... so do not
do the practice ... use the source instead...ie. the iicchaa sakti ... turn it
back upon itself this alone will suffice for very fast progress.....
Also understand that meditation is not for its own sake or
for the experiences.. it is for the developement of the WILL the same applies to
hatha and iyenga as well as the early stages of Patanjali yoga. Hence He attains
freedom in all the modes of His own consciousness. That freedom consists in the
recogntion that He is already free in all as the Self.....
acceptance, love, tolerance, and compassion for all beings since they are the
Self.... here then is where knowledge becomes ignorance and love becomes
bindu: Thus a man who has gotten rid of himself lives
as a normal being but internally that man is not himself, he has lost himself,
he has gone beyond as the tibetans say... this is self-realization.
It is not that anyone got enlightened... the SELF is
always enlightened. He is Siva, Vishnu, God, Jehovah, Krishna or whatever else
we want to call God.... He is not that MAN, or JIVA. He is clothed in existence
itself... but removing the clothes yeilds no-self who has any limited being that
can be known in any language because language appears IN HIM.. it is nto the
other way around... HE appears AS language AS mantra AS Being and
sadhu: Why is it that WILL needs development if it is
Shiva's? It is already WILL fully or not.
bindu: ah! ... good good good that you see
sadhu: I'm reading the poem.
bindu: so then we have spoken of the 1st step; You are
talking of the 2nd step now...
bindu: >>> Why is it that WILL needs
development if it is Shiva's? It is already WILL fully or not.
sadhu: I will come back to the poem. It's a bit
bindu: sure, as you wish.
bindu: The 2nd step is to transform the mind by the
recognition of what you just stated... so then hold the focus upon that idea and
surrender into the idea that the correct stance in relation to the 2nd step is
to recognize that to move out of that idea as if you exist is to subscribe to
Jiva as Self...
bindu: so in this level the recommendation is to remain in
Self and to cease trying to become (go out of the Self)
bindu: since you are already the Self existing as existence... practice
of this is to let go of all ego-based drives....
bindu: become nothing, remain as nothing;this is not negation of
something, nor is it nihilism. It is based in the truth of the sakti as
described above. It is to remain in the potential, focussed lovingly upon the