Dear Dan! I admire your wit and completely agree with your argument. Matter of national authenticity - complex. Especially in Russia. It is generally difficultMessage 1 of 76 , Jan 27View SourceDear Dan!
I admire your wit and completely agree with your argument.
Matter of national authenticity - complex. Especially in Russia. It is generally difficult to understand.
We have 10 years ago abolished the nationality clause in the passport, but as my friend sad, if your face does not like someone, then hit in your face, but not to your passport.
But seriously, I know only one brilliant formula, it seems to be expressed Emperor Alexander 2nd - best of all, but by a strange coincidence, it was he who was killed by terrorists.
So he said - Russian, who loves Russia.
To paraphrase the words on the subject under discussion, I can say:
Pole - is the one who loves Poland.
Our fathers and grandfathers (wives and children), no doubt, love Krésy. So care for them was painful, they carried this pain through decades.
They were real Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians (may be Jews), in their notions everyone loved this land. In fact, Kresy in 1921-39 years were an autonomous republic within the RP2, which did not have the time (had 50-60 years, not 18) to "digest" national characteristics and become more or less monolithic.
Further, we are confronted with the truth identifiable difficult concept, but what is love of country? Before, I was all clear, I loved my country - the USSR. But the country is not, so what? Painfully seek an answer. And I find it - I love Russia.
Everyone has their own idea of love. The easiest way to Jews - they were scattered all over the world for a long time, and probably love to live where they feel good. On the other hand, only in Israel I saw true patriotism, which is nowhere.Perhaps in today's Poland, but I was not there, and is not ready to say, not having visited and talked to the people.
Stan from M.
From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Ethnicity vs. citizenship [was NEIGHBOURS ON THE EVE OF THE HOLOCAUST]
Well, I think what is important is how General Anders regarded himself!
Note that in the Polish census in the inter-war years, the defining
characteristic was "mother tongue," and that was evidently
self-reported. This probably had the effect of making the ethnic Polish
population seem larger than it actually was, since an educated Jew or
other ethnic minority might well consider that his mother tongue was
Polish rather than Yiddish, Hebrew, Ukrainian, Belorussian, German,
Lithuanian.... Whereas it seems extremely unlikely that an ethnic Pole
would report his mother tongue as Yiddish, Hebrew, Ukrainian, whatever.
Of course one can always blow this up. Is Barack Obama an
African-American? He identifies himself as such, but his mother probably
thought of him as much white as black. And "African-American" has a
connotation of "descendant of longago slaves" whereas Mr Obama is very
definitely a Kenyan-American, and a first-generation Kenyan at that. He
shares almost nothing with most American blacks.
Then there is Konstantin Rokossovsky, born in Warsaw, joined the Russian
(Tsarist) army, joined the Bolshevik party, married a Russian in Ulan
Bator, reared a Russian daughter, became a Marshal of the Soviet Union,
featured on a four-kopek postage stamp, took the salute alongside Zhukov
at the victory parade in 1945, commanded the Russo-Polish forces in
Poland, became Poland's Defense Minister in 1952. He was then 56 and had
lived in the Soviet Union for 35 years. Was he Russian or Polish? As he
himself said, "In Russia, they say I'm a Pole, in Poland they call me
Nevertheless, ethnicity is a useful concept. I am a US citizen, but I am
ethnically Irish. I do not however drink green beer or march in St
Patrick's Day parades. -- Dan Ford US
On 1/27/2013 11:11 AM, John Halucha wrote:
> Am I safe to regard him as "ethnically" Polish, if I must keep
> accepting ethnicity as defining?
Akcja Wisla uprooted ALL Greek Catholics, not just Lemkos. ... From: Zenon Kuzik To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:54 AMMessage 76 of 76 , Jan 29View SourceAkcja Wisla uprooted ALL Greek Catholics, not just Lemkos.----- Original Message -----From: Zenon KuzikSent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:54 AMSubject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenshipDear Basia,Point taken about language being organic, but the man in Wroclaw was quite adamant that Polish as spoken in present-day Poland has been bastardised: his subjective opinion.I think that if the Lithuanian lady had a painful experience, she probably allowed that to cloud her judgment regarding the past: subjective emotion distorting objective facts/reality. I am not necessarily condemning her because of this, as we can all be guilty of doing the same - the present writer included!You mentioned the Bieszczady region and the ethnic cleansing that took place there. This was part of what is known as Akcja Wisla which uprooted Lemkos and other Ruthenians/Ukrainians from their ancestral lands. Remember, of course, that this took place during the Communist era, at the behest of Moscow.Interestingly, I knew some Lemko folk who were victims of this tragedy. Yet they did not become anti-Polish as a result. They were aware of the circumstances behind their painful experience and were very friendly towards the Poles they came across in their new land of Australia, and were happy to speak in (non-bastardised!) Polish. I think they could have taught that Lithuanian lady a thing or two! By the way, as those native to Bieszczady were mostly Greek Catholics, and not Orthodox, it would seem more likely that the service you witnessed was led by GC and RC clergy.Your contributions are much appreciated.Zenon KuzikNew Zealand
From: Basia <basia@...>
Sent: Tuesday, 29 January 2013 9:10 PM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
Dear ZenonLanguage is very "organic" it changes! There are many factors which affect that.In my humble opinion, it is not that language is/was better, just different, evolved,and many factors affect that.Just consider the variants in English around the world.That is a fact, and we tend to cling to what is familiar to us.That too is understandable.The difference in language is significantly noticeable when I speak to younger generation Poles (I am mother in law to a gorgeous "real" Pole, 10 years out of Poland).I speak very reasonable Polish (apparently) and I do hear the "difference" in the younger generation.As for the lady from LithuaniaHer experience is obviously painful, her memories are based on her personal experiences and stories.This why I embrace, to the best of my ability (not always successfully) an openness to learn about/from other cultures before forming cautious opinions.I was in the Bieszczady region of Poland a few years ago, I don't exactly know the facts between the changing borders, but I was, for the first time, seeing evidence of ethnic cleansing, by Poles, which caused me terrible pain.There was an extraordinary process of reconciliation happening when I was (purely by fluke) there. A marvellous service, in a church rebuilt from rubble, officiated at by Roman Catholic and Orthodox priests (bishops or even higher I think) One of the most moving days in my life.It filled me with hope for the human race.Basia Zielinska (Sydney)From: Zenon Kuzik <zenon.kuzik@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:16:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenshipDear Basia,What a great reply - thank you! Stanislaw from Moscow's contribution certainly gave food for thought as well.Another aspect that "distances" me from modern Poland is that I have come across recent immigrants from that country who are not at all interested in connecting with the older Poles of my parents' generation. They seem to regard them as foreigners! Anyhow, I was heartened when a man in Wroclaw, whose family was originally from Volhynia, said that my father spoke much better Polish than most people in present-day Poland. We multi-ethnics from the former Eastern Poland are the true heirs of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. What a shame that the Lithuanian lady referred to by Dan Ford in his recent post has such a narrow (blinkered?) view of the past.Gratefully,Zenon KuzikAcross the Ditch from Sydney