Dan! As me explained Mikhail Rogachev of Memorial (his thesis - Polish prisoners in Komi, he knows the question), Polish prisoners of war (POW) were notMessage 1 of 53 , Dec 31 1:31 AMView SourceDan!As me explained Mikhail Rogachev of Memorial (his thesis - Polish prisoners in Komi, he knows the question), Polish prisoners of war (POW) were not considered in full sense of this word.The key concept here - the verdict (sentence)!
Most of real POW were the verdict, as I said, for several reasons
1) POW (like my grandfather) could unleash for a few days (for example, in October 22, 1939 he was able to vote in favor of joining Western to Eastern Belarus), then the person was arrested, carried a typical sentence - public enemy (think about it, what is brilliant formulation), gave a typically 8 years of camps - and go to "Siberia".
2) The police, border guard service and certain other personnel (eg, intelligence, counter-intelligence) - were arrested immediately to pass sentence. It was (on the whole) was more cruel, but to be shot, as far as I know, in 1939-41. of Poles sentenced anyone.
Katynm horror lies in the fact that people were shot without sentence at all.
3) If, during forced labor POW made (from the point of view NKWD) any act, arrested him again (in the camp), handed down to sentence.
There are enormous difficulties in finding traces of prisoners who have not been sentenced. So there was no evidence of the case! They had only a transit cases for which Guryanov made his base.
Stanislav from Moscow.From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents № 125 - № 157.
1. In the camps of the NKVD currently contains 18,297 Polish prisoners
of war people
Remind me again, how many Poles joined the Anders Army? (I realize that
they weren't all PWs.)
And I suppose "camps" might be a limiting term, referring only to PWs,
assuming the NKVD regarded Poles sent to the Gulag as common criminals?
- Dan Ford US
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Dear Mark, Bravo .. what a remarkable find. Maybe the definitive book on Katyn has yet to be written .. Stefan JMessage 53 of 53 , Jan 5View SourceDear Mark,Bravo .. what a remarkable find.Maybe the definitive book on Katyn has yet to be written ..Stefan JFrom: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 10:31:33 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ 125 - Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ 157.Dear Stefan,So mystery solved. 448 it is but... there were two separate periods of transportation.The 395 were sent at the time of/after the murders. They were directly spared from execution as they were happening. The first transport was 29 March 1940, a few days after Beria recommended shooting the Poles, but just before the killings actually started.From each camp – transported:Kozielsk – 24Starobielsk – 22Ostaszkov – 7-----------------Total: 53Most of these were transported to Yukhnovsky camp.The full list of names is in a memo [No.17] from Sudoplatov, a Major in Section Five [Counterintelligence] of State Security.Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
> Hi Dan,
> Yes, as you mention, the Zadowny book was one of earliest books on Katyn. It was published in 1962, and so had the
> advantage of many eyewitness POW accounts (the publisher claims 150) that were relatively fresh memories. Of course,
> it had the huge disadvantage of not have access to most of the Soviet records, certainly not those that were released
> in 1991, and subsequently.Â Â .. History is indeed a work in progress!
> Stefan J
> From: Dan Ford
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 5:49:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ 125 - Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ 157.
> Do understand that Mr Zadowny's book was very early, perhaps the first
> to delve into the massacres at any length. History works by accretion
> and by questioning what was assumed. You really can't compare "Death in
> the Forest" with "Katyn--Crime Without Punishment" which represents huge
> advances in what is known.
> There is also a huge difference in what historians know and what society
> at large know. Perhaps because I came to history late (I started out by
> making stuff up--I was a novelist) this always surprises me. "Nazi death
> camps" and indeed even the word "Nazi" as a substitute for "German" is a
> good example. Then there's "Wehrmacht" which almost everyone uses to
> mean "Germany army," when the army was the Heer, one of three military
> forces, the others being the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe. Those are
> just words, but the same is true of events. Well -- take the Polish
> cavalry charging German tanks! Again, every historian (in the field)
> knows it's not true, but you will never get it out of the media and the
> common knowledge.
> Historians joke (rather sourly) that American college students know two
> things about World War Two: that the Americans used an atomic bomb on
> Hiroshima, and that the Japanese in retaliation bombed Pearl Harbor.
> It's only a slight exaggeration. And those college students go on to be
> the newspaper and television writers and editors of the future. -- Dan
> Ford US
> On 1/3/2013 2:27 AM, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
> > I had a closer look at Zadownys' book, "Death in the Forrest", and can
> > see that his discrepency in the numbers of Katyn
> > survivors in 1940 vs. 1941 is clearly acknowledged.