To all: The number of Polish people deported or any percent that is quoted as being killed in, on the way or after the gulags should never be the issue whenMessage 1 of 67 , Oct 31, 2012View SourceTo all:
The number of Polish people deported or any percent that is quoted as being killed in, on the way or after the gulags should never be the issue when Polish people make such statements in their sorrow.
To refute these numbers is not the responsibility of the Polish people unless some think that the Polish people themselves of their own free will, deported themselves in cattle cars and went to the gulags to help the poor USSR/Russian economy. Unless they think that if the Polish people perished in the gulags or afterwards it was the Polish People’s fault because they did not work hard enough to buy food, bring enough clothing, equipment to the gulags or were not health enough and that is why they died there. They were not killed by the USSR/Russian System.
It has been well over 72 years since the first deportation took place during WW2. Enough time has passed that those who might have been held responsible for killing and deportation of the Polish people have died natural deaths and enjoyed a happy and full life. Therefore no harm can be done to release all information on their atrocities.
Sprinkled with false facts that so many try to use to lift the USSR/Russian image I also try to use common sense to try and arrive at some closure regarding facts presented.
I am 72 years old and during my life people have reported to me when I was in different management positions. In some cases they understated or overstated their accomplishments. So when I reviewed their reports I understood that I could not believe the all facts presented.
This is the same principles I use when I read people trying to hold the Polish statements as having to be absolutely 100% accurate. But these same individuals in many cases seldom hold the Russian/USSR facts to be 100% accurate. They never hold the Russian/USSR governments to any level of responsibility to release their historical entire secret documents library to scrutiny.
Why is it always so important for them to hold the Polish people to 100% accuracy? I would think that USSR/Russia should be held 100% accurate first since they committed the atrocities rather than holding the Polish people to be 100% accurate for trying to reconstruct history without pertinent information.
I just want to touch on a small fact and that is the percent that were killed or died in the gulags. This small percent seems to be very important to some of us. That percent again must be accurate by the same individuals who again feel in my opinion to be looking for the rehabilitation of the USSR/Russian regime image.
I look at the percent figure a little different. I lost my father because of these murders that was a 100% loss to me and my family. It was not 17, 20. 30 or 50% loss and I resent the implication that I should be happy that my loss was only a small part of the total and it contributed to a smaller loss then 100%. To me was and will always be a 100% personal loss.
The same hold true to the many mothers, sister, brothers, friends and neighbors. Each was a 100% loss to the person or family that loved them. Again as stated before please spend time condemning the correct regimes not the poor Polish people who never asked to be deported and killed regardless of what percent we place on our personal misery and loss.
In case some are not aware here are some facts:
The USSR/Russian Government be it Bolshevik, Socialistic, Communistic has almost never told the truth. In fact I have deduced that they always lie. They lie to influence/force others to believe what is convenient for their current position. That is part of their basic manifesto.
In addition, a person has no value only the party’s survival is the driving force of these systems. So, how many they kill, deport, starve or work to death is immaterial to them.
If they get caught being perceived as part of a negative organization they just change the name of that organization and continue on their merry way killing people.
It is not what I am saying please read their manifestos, personal biographies’, historical reports, variety of historical documents written by many of their own.
So I hope we can end this persecution of Polish statements that some feel must be 100% accurate and focus our attention on those who are responsible for all of these atrocities and demand all of their hidden documents.
I would venture to guess that the reason Russia/USSR refuses to release their complete archives is that it will prove that the Polish statements are completely wrong.
I am sure that the numbers when finally released, if ever ,will prove to be far greater than the Polish currently believe. If this is not the case why not release all of the information at once and prove us wrong?
Today there is no one alive in the USSR/Russian Government that could be held accountable for the atrocities committed on the Polish people! So what do they have to lose only their lies.
JulekOn Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Lenarda Szymczak <szymczak01@...> wrote:
Dan, you should also remember the Polish Operation of 1937-1938 declassified Soviet document, of Secret Operation 00447, by head of the NKVD Nikolai Yezhov and signed by Stalin http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEsQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Febookbrowse.com%2Fthe-nkvd-mass-secret-operation-no-00447-august-1937-pdf-d345562221&ei=RoaRUI7BJfGXiQfc5IHICQ&usg=AFQjCNEs9McTXA_9JZ1X1ddKLx0redqVxQ&cad=rja with details released 2009, updated in 2010, in which the NKVD took as prisoner thousands of Polish 1937 and when their prisons were full to capacity made room by mass murder in 1938 for the next wave of repression, prior to their Invasion of Poland in 1939. Also those that were previously deported to Kazakhstan were also targeted in this operation, before the arrival of the Amnestied Polish joining Anders Army. These survivors could have also crossed over to Persia. Many escaped through China as well. We are looking at thousands not accounted for, either murdered or escaped or trapped with nowhere to go, who were Polish Citizens back in 1918. Up to 1939 there are no accurate records of the imprisonment or slaughter, only after 1939 when Beria came on the scene, we have some sort of inaccurate records of numbers, being kept and constantly debated as they are constantly changed by whomever is in power in which country on that day. All we can do is keep telling the truth as it really happened and perhaps if we are the constant, then the fluctuating records will eventually show the truth of which we speak.
You might be interested in what Halik Kochanski says about the numbers.(Not deaths--numbers affected.)
She is skeptical of the revisionist figures from Poland in the late
1990s and prefers to guesstimate 500,000 in the deportations. That being
the case, here are her figures as of June 1941 (page 137 of the US edition):
500,000 civilians deported.
196,000 prisoners of war (this is after the Katyn cleanout of officers etc)
210,000 "Polish citizens who had been conscripted into the Red Army"
250,000 "arrested and sentenced to hard labor in the Gulag"
That's a total of 1,156,000, to which she adds "an unknown number of
Polish citizens who had volunteered to work in the Soviet Union"
The last three categories (Red Army conscripts, arrestees, and
volunteers) are not usually mentioned in the accounts I have read. Of
the extended family I am writing about, eight women and children were
exiled to Kazakhstan, two men were murdered at Katyn and Kiev, one man
was arrested trying to cross into Romania and so wound up in a labor
camp, one man was a prisoner of war with the Germans, and one man was
killed in the bombing of Lwow in September 1939.
Uncle Jan from the labor camp was amnestied in 1942, which raises an
interesting point. He was neither a prisoner of war (hence eligible to
join Anders Army) nor a civilian deportee (hence amnestied). So the pool
of civilian and military escapees to Persia in 1942 was much larger than
the PWs and the civilian deportees; it certainly included some of the
250,000 here mentioned, and arguably ought to have included all of them.
So a total of 946,000 Poles were eligible in theory to get out to
Persia. How many actually did, 125,000-150,000? That was only one out of
six or seven who might have gotten out.
In addition to the "unknown number" of labor volunteers, there is also
of course an unknown number of Poles already dead, killed in the
September 1939 invasions, by the NKVD from September 1939 to June 1941,
and died of starvation and neglect in the camps before that June figure.
-- Dan Ford US
On 10/30/2012 1:53 PM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
> eath Rates rear their ugly head!
Thanks Halina, fascinating. I will go through this on the weekend. In brief review, I wonder which year was a harder time in Poland - 1939 or 1944? Mark T.Message 67 of 67 , Nov 7, 2012View SourceThanks Halina, fascinating.I will go through this on the weekend.In brief review, I wonder which year was a harder time in Poland - 1939 or 1944?Mark T.
CanadaFrom: halinamcd <redcube@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 9:08:48 PM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Mieczyslaw Turkiewicz