Yes, after all this is called a discussion group so that we can have such discussions. I find that the members have generally stayed on-topic, have been respectful of their different opinions, and informative to the group. Please do not feel you need to stop (unless at some point you find yourself repeating the same points over and over!)
"Established to inspire, promote and support research, remembrance and recognition
of Polish citizens’ struggles in the Eastern Borderlands and in Exile during World War 2."
Registered in Warsaw (KRS 0000326445) & other countries pending.
ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 64 lok. 31
00-322 Warszawa, Polska
tel/fax +48 22 556 90 55
Personal: Seaforth NSW 2092 Australia
] On Behalf Of Barbara Scrivens
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:06 PM
Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Poland Betrayed By Churchill & FDR
I so agree!
Guys – please don’t stop. I’m finding the correspondence enlightening. Many thanks.
<mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of tinijoroga
Sent: Saturday, 5 December 2009 9:54 a.m.
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Poland Betrayed By Churchill & FDR
This subject has been so sensitive that it has been secreted away in the annals of history. Iâ€™ve learned more by reading the exchanges than from any history book. Though the discussion has been lengthy, there are those who continue to read the sequels with interest whereas others, who have lost interest in the subject matter, can chose not to.
BOZENA â€" Florida, USA
--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> , "ted sebestianski" <tsebestianski@...> wrote:
> Why don,t you give up that subject you should know this is a very sensetive issue.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: walter_orlowski
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 2:24 PM
> Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Poland Betrayed By Churchill & FDR
> Hi Mark and Group:
> Mark you are trying to "understand" too hard. You can cherry pick through all the post-facto propaganda, excuses, justifications and fabricated documents that the British, Russians and Americans have put out and find some that you believe, but they will always remain what they are namely "believable lies". One can't justify the unjustifiable. Nothing that the Allies did vis a vis Poland or Stalin was in their "self-interest". Again you are focusing on the end game in which the British and now joined by Americans were trying to cover up and justify their betrayal of Poland but also the indefensible partition of Europe. That partition was also a betrayal. The betrayal began in 1939 and not in 1945.
> Mikolajczyk made a lot of mistakes, and became a tool and a scapegoat in allied anti-Polish propaganda. But, he never said this (bellow) and I doubt if the conversation ever took place:
> "M. Mikolajczyk said that the country was settling down and he alleged as
> > proof of this that 95% of the Underground Army had emerged from the Maquis,
> > and that casualties in the operations against the underground army which
> > had at one time, I understand him to say, reached the enormous figure of
> > 15,000 a month on each side had ceased. The battle for political freedom was
> > being won. The Communists were no longer able to put down the other
> > political parties except by force, which. they would now hesitate to use.
> > M. Mikolajczyk said that the withdrawal of Russian troops was going fairly
> > well and he thought that the majority of what he called field units had
> > departed or were departing. Leaving only administrative, supply and L. of C.
> > [lines of communication] personnel. [...] He regarded the recent
> > arrangements for stationing a special Russian force in each area of Poland to
> mop up Red Army stragglers and looters as valuable and deplored its having been
> > represented in some quarters as a new Russian occupation."
> Only someone totally unfamiliar with the Soviet occupation and past actions would have said that and believed such nonsense. "Red Army stragglers and looters"? Do you really believe that there were such stragglers under NKVD ran occupation? You can safely assume that nothing under NKVD rule happened by chance unless proven otherwise. The looting, rapes and killings were anything but crimes of rogue soldiers, but part of Soviet policy of intimidation and repression. What happened in Berlin also happened in Poland. Do you really believe that Mikolajczyk was even informed about what the Soviets were or were not doing? According to that memo from the Foreign Office one would believe that Mikolajczyk was in charge of the "government" in Warsaw.
> I suggest you read Mikolajczyk's "Rape of Poland" (there is a new printing available) and Stefan Karbonski's "Warsaw in Chains" (W Imieniu Kremla) which will give you a good idea of what the PPS was facing and how they felt. Karbonski's is a day by day diary. There was a virulent anti-Polish propaganda against PPS, the Church, the Home Army, and even Boy Scouts. The Communist puppets were purveyors of that Soviet propaganda. The PPS was not allowed to distribute its paper and often what they produced was confiscated. The arrests of their members continued unabated. Karbonski himself was detained several times, even though he was one of the officials of the party and a member of the interim Sejm, the Polish Parliament. Mark, how could you possibly quote selective self serving Churchill's hand wringing comments, after the reign of terror of 1939-1941, massive deportations and killings of Polish POWs, after revelation of Katyn murders, after the Warsaw Uprising betrayal and a war against the Home Army which began in 1943?
> As Churchill spoke, the reign of terror of 1945-53 was at its peak. 1945 was a period of liquidation of the Home Army, the "show trial of the Sixteen" and murder of numerous Polish People's (Peasant) Party workers and officials. Between 1945 and 1947 as many as 150,000 people were killed by the Soviet forces. Probably more than 150,000 were deported and deportations started in 1945 and continued into 1950s. The Home Army soldiers who agreed to lay down their arms were most often arrested on the spot, many of the officers were killed, and most of the men deported to gulags. As a result many remained in the forests and continued to fight and others try to flee to the West. It was a "war" of genocide against the Polish nation by its implacable Soviet enemy. At all times there were more than a quarter of a million Soviet troops in occupied Poland fighting against the underground and terrorizing people. The so called Armia Ludowa was commanded by Soviet officers and the Internal Special Security forces were half Soviet soldiers and half "Polish" and all officers were Russians. These special forces were used in fighting the remnants of the Home Army (WIN). The document that you quoted was probably fabricated by the British Intelligence (maybe even Kim Philby himself) to justify British and allied betrayal and to set up Mikolajczyk as the fall guy.
> Mark you are trying to "understand" too hard. There is no need for it. At this stage we have to stop arguing about misinformation and believable lies and begin a process that will lead to release of all information that the British and Americans have rather than accept the most believable misinformation so far released.
> In my next post I will try to define what I and probably most people think of as betrayal which began with first overtures by the British and French for an allience.
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> , "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@> wrote:
> > Dear Eve,
> > You write: "Surely Churchill and Roosevelt knew, through intelligence or other means, that the Soviet "free elections" conducted in Kresy after invasion were a total sham..."
> > You would think wouldn't you!!!
> > Churchill declared to the House of Commons in December 1944:
> > "...the fate of the Polish nation holds a prime place in the thoughts and policies of His Majesty's Government and the British Parliament. It was with great pleasure that I heard from Marshal Stalin that he, too, was resolved upon the creation and maintenance of a strong, integral, independent Poland as one of the leading Powers in Europe. He has several times repeated these declarations in public, and I am convinced that they represent the settled policy of the Soviet Union."
> > Did he believe this? Your guess is as good as mine. I'm inclined to think that he was cynical enough not to, but Allied unity had to be maintained at all cost. Publically he HAD to believe it. I remain convinced that this was his prime motivation. For the sake of political/military expediency he chose to ignore Stalin's previous dealings. In a telegram to Jan Smuts in South Africa, Churchill showed some internal insight:
> > "Will it be said of me that I was so obsessed with the destruction of Hitlerism that I neglected to see the enemy rising in the East? Will this somehow be my epitaph on everything that I have done from the Blitz, the Battle of Britain and onwards?"
> > The obvious answer is yes. In an effort to defeat the Germans, Churchill was prepared to accept the events that were unfolding in the Poland.
> > And before we get too critical at the gullibility of the British, one has to remember that not all of the Polish Armed Forces in the West remained in Exile. Many tens of thousands chose to return. Why? The 1945 New Year edition of the PSL paper "Jutro Polski" explained why the Party was returning to Poland:
> > "We fight for the spirit of the nation, for its ideals and values, for the economic reconstruction of the country, for the development of the economy and of culture. We want to lead that struggle in Poland, where our place and destiny is."
> > A conversation between General Anders and Mikolajczyk before the latter returned to Poland is very telling:
> > ----------------------- edited ---------------------------
> > >
> > Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.92/2543 - Release Date: 12/04/09 20:32:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]