Exactly... Selling water to fish.Message 1 of 38 , Dec 4 9:11 PMView SourceExactly... Selling water to fish.
On Nov 28, 2011, at 11:54 AM, "Diana Stanley" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
I have decided there is no spiritual path. If you are sitting in your living room you don't need a path to find it! I feel it is a matter of becoming aware of who or what you are.
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
> Hello AA,
> I enjoy your perspective
> and comments.
> I think that this site,
> for me, is to explore
> not only "why" we all
> bought into Eckankar,
> but why we felt we
> needed another religion
> per se.
> Then, again, it was
> bait and switch since
> most of us saw it (EK)
> as a "spiritual path"
> versus a religion. Some
> are still under the mis-
> understanding and
> delusion that Eckankar
> is a "path" versus a "religion."
> However, let's not forget
> that Twitchell went back
> on what he said about being
> anti-religion and made
> EK a religion for tax purposes
> and for other non-profit
> org benefits and protection.
> But, it was Klemp who came
> up with "Religion" in Eckankar's
> title and has brought his
> Lutheran teachings and the
> most inaccurate, King James,
> version of the Christian Bible
> (along with his one-dimensional
> stories) into the mix with Twitchell's
> Eastern compilations/distortions.
> IMO-It seems that there
> is an innate desire, by each
> Soul, to Know God and, yes,
> to return Home. Unfortunately,
> this, along with giving unscientific,
> mystical and other imagined
> explanations of cosmology
> are, also, hooks that the religious
> conmen use to grab and trap
> ignorant and/or unsuspecting
> people. With Eckankar, mostly,
> New Age thinkers are the targets.
> Then again, we bought into
> what the ego wanted to hear....
> that this, Eckankar, was the
> most advanced spiritual path
> anywhere or ever! How Paul,
> Darwin, and Harold got to be
> "Mahantas" and greater than
> the (4th Plane) God we once
> worshipped was slid in under
> the rug with some other crap
> that we were asked to open
> our minds to and to "prove"
> on the "inner" in our "dreams."
> Apparently, dreaming about
> something validates what we
> want/need to believe as being
> Also, this site (ESA)
> is being used to reach
> out to those Eckists
> who look in, every
> now and then, in order
> to address issues that
> they've decided to hide
> from, often, out of convenience.
> Sometimes it's easier
> to remain in the cult
> than to make changes
> and to lose contact with
> EK acquaintances, friends,
> and family members.
> Nobody enjoys confrontation,
> change, or loneliness.
> And, in Eckankar, there are
> those "spiritual techniques"
> that reenforces and sustains
> both a conscious and subconscious
> of belief that the EK dogma
> is true... but it not! There's
> more to Truth than the empty
> and redundant words coming
> from Klemp.
> Still, ECKists do a lot of
> rationalizing in order to
> live with/under all the
> rules (spoken/written
> and unspoken) for fear
> of losing initiation and/or
> position advancement.
> Having 20/20 hindsight,
> still, doesn't always give
> Yesterday I was waiting
> for a haircut and some
> older women (65 plus)
> were discussing the OWS
> protestors and the one
> was saying how dirty they
> were and other negative
> things. True, I'm sure that
> there are a lot of homeless
> and street people as well
> as criminals in the crowd
> along with the protestors.
> But, these women should
> have remembered the sit-
> ins and protests of the
> 1960's and 70's in regard
> to the Vietnam War. Or,
> maybe they were too busy
> working and raising their
> children. In any case, look
> at how the Vietnam protestors
> were viewed then! They were
> right! Look at how the anti-
> Iraq protestors were viewed
> and the intimidation tactics
> used to get Congress in lock-
> step to support the invasion.
> And, where were those WMDs?
> So, when looking at Eckankar
> or any religion we, also, need
> to look at hierarchies and the
> intimidation tactics that religions
> use. It's interesting that we each
> vote for a few of those within
> our political hierarchies, but
> are stuck for years with the
> results, unless, we chose to
> move to another city, county,
> state, or country.
> However, with Eckankar,
> chelas never get to vote
> for the RESA! But the RESA
> gets to vote on chelas.
> This is why, sometimes,
> it does help to have the
> right RESA in order to be
> promoted....but, then, one
> will eventually hit their head
> on the glass ceiling of the
> 7th initiation.
> Yes, we've been there,
> done that, and I actually
> did buy an EK Tee-shirt
> along with a coffee mug!
> Plus, I spent thousands
> of dollars on donations,
> books, jewelry, tapes,
> CDs, brochures, bookmarks,
> pocket posters and cards,
> etc., etc., etc. That's not
> even counting the air fare
> or hotel stays for all of
> those seminars over the
> Well, that's enough for
> now. Got to go! However,
> I encourage everyone here
> to write or post something
> about an ECKankar memory
> ... a blast from the past!
> Austin Atma wrote:
> Isn't it a little less strange
> now that we're looking
> at all this rap in our
> rearview mirrors?
> We've all got the t-shirt.
> Trips over.
> So are we going together
> fooled again, stoke up
> the opium pipe and toke
> ourselves into religious
> stupor? Or just rehash
> (bad pun) the monomaniacal
> mash up of PT and HK?
> Inoculation against self
> delusive wishful thinking
> and weaning ourselves
> off the religious teat - not
> finding another to suck on -
> seems the way out of the
> rat race of religious political
> and social superstition once
> and for all.
> I do enjoy dipping into the
> Wreckankar coffee table
> book of memories.
> Sometimes when I read the
> stories of initiations missed
> etc it reminds me of what
> a stupid system we bought
> into. Controlled by hierarchical
> manipulations of undefinable,
> yet socially related human
> As they say in the old country
> frack that.
> "Diana Stanley" wrote:
> It's all too strange!
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> > Hello Diana and All,
> > I remember going
> > to the HK's first LEM
> > Youth Conference in
> > Chicago. Everyone was
> > lined up to shake his
> > hand because they/we
> > wanted to ekperience
> > the Darshan.
> > Klemp later complained
> > that some people squeezed
> > his hand too hard but
> > continued to shake
> > hands at one or two
> > more seminars until
> > complaining about
> > his hand hurting and
> > discontinuing what
> > was beginning to be
> > seen as a new EK
> > tradition. Anyway,
> > at the next seminar
> > I just stood back and
> > watched the people
> > stand in line to get
> > near him to touch.
> > It was very strange
> > for me to see the
> > looks on their faces.
> > It seems that Klemp
> > went back on what
> > he said about not
> > creating anymore
> > 8th or 9th Initiates,
> > but has slowed and
> > limited them and all
> > Higher Initiations.
> > I know that back around
> > 1987 that Klemp promoted
> > one East European H.I.
> > to the 9th. Elmo told me
> > this and at the time Elmo
> > was on the ECK Board
> > and was, of course, an
> > 8th himself and had been
> > an 8th way before Klemp
> > took power. I found out
> > later that Elmo had told
> > several people about this
> > 9th. Actually, according
> > to EK dogma the 9th isn't
> > allowed to tell others
> > that he/she is a 9th,
> > but it doesn't prohibit
> > others from telling. Well,
> > there is the catch-all Law
> > of Silence, but Elmo was
> > a free thinker and who's
> > going to censor him? Not
> > Klemp! Of course Klemp
> > can always mention who
> > these 9ths are or introduce
> > them as 9th Initiates. HK
> > could make some H.I.s
> > 12ths. They don't have to
> > be LEMs! I wonder if the
> > Initiation number 9 is on
> > their ECK Membership Cards?
> > Strange that a 12th can
> > be known but a 9th can't?
> > Too many stupid rules to
> > follow let alone remember!
> > I guess that's why the EK Law
> > of Silence is used so often!
> > Prometheus
> > dianastanley wrote:
> > I remember when Harold
> > first became the leader
> > he went to vist a mutual
> > friend. The guy asked
> > him when there would
> > be 8 an9th initiates.
> > Harold said never!
> > He also was freaked
> > out at his first Seminar
> > wondering why all
> > these people were
> > standing in line in
> > front of him, Mike
> > said they just want
> > to shake your hand.
> > Harold had no clue
> > how to act so he
> > began inventing
> > all the rules anew.
> > I believe when Harold
> > goes Ecankar will
> > begin to fall apart.
> > Diana
> > <prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > > I was thinking back
> > > about being passed
> > > over for a higher
> > > initiation way way
> > > back in the late 80s
> > > and at the time it
> > > really pissed me off.
> > > I almost quit then
> > > and there and wish
> > > I would have. I had
> > > ruffled a few feathers
> > > and the timing was
> > > bad. The initiation
> > > list from the ESC had
> > > just been received by
> > > the RESAs and their
> > > pettiness, suspicion,
> > > and judgmental attitudes
> > > were having an effect
> > > upon, mostly, innocent
> > > victims of Klemp's RESA
> > > hierarchy.
> > >
> > > Why is Klemp and his
> > > RESAs so stingy with
> > > Higher Initiations?
> > >
> > > Anyway, I had to wait
> > > awhile but did finally
> > > get the pink slip. It
> > > wasn't a big deal after
> > > all, but we all made it
> > > seem so didn't we!
> > >
> > > Then again, look at
> > > all of those leadership
> > > classes, intros, Satsang
> > > classes, etc., etc. and
> > > the time and money we
> > > donated. We earned it
> > > all but were never "paid"
> > > as promised. ECK Initiations
> > > are, supposedly, tied
> > > directly to consciousness
> > > so why does consciousness
> > > (for most) end at the
> > > 7th Initiation?
> > >
> > > BTW-Hundreds of 7th
> > > Initiates have been stuck
> > > on an "older" past level
> > > of consciousness which
> > > is lower than what many
> > > 1st Initiates are at today.
> > >
> > > [Klemp stated, about ten
> > > years ago, that most of
> > > those (newbies) coming
> > > into Eckankar, today, have
> > > a higher state of consciousness
> > > over that of many H.I.s]
> > >
> > > The only noticeable lower
> > > and outer plane differences
> > > is that newbies (1st Initiates)
> > > are less indoctrinated with/by
> > > dogma, ESC Guidelines, and
> > > are less experienced with
> > > putting on a good show and
> > > with defensive double talk.
> > > Plus, they feel less fearful
> > > and less threatened for saying
> > > the "wrong" thing or of being
> > > too honest and truthful. Of
> > > course they're less brainwashed,
> > > as well, maybe that's another
> > > reason why Klemp thinks
> > > they're more pure of consciousness.
> > > Eckankar's crap hasn't gummed
> > > up the gears just yet and they
> > > come across as more "real."
> > >
> > > Yes, it has to be frustrating
> > > and insulting for longtime
> > > H.I.s to see Klemp's 30th
> > > anniversary coming up for
> > > 2012. Will this be his last
> > > year? ECKists can only hope!
> > > Will HK give Joan a 12th
> > > before leaving office? She
> > > can only hope! But would a
> > > change in leadership produce
> > > more and higher initiations?
> > > What if it does? They're meaningless
> > > anyway!
> > >
> > > Prometheus
Hello Diana, You ve got my curiosity. Please tell me/us more! Prometheus Diana Stanley wrote: I met a perfect soul. He did not want followers and did not haveMessage 38 of 38 , Jan 12, 2012View SourceHello Diana,
You've got my curiosity.
Please tell me/us more!
Diana Stanley wrote:
I met a perfect soul.
He did not want
followers and did
not have a spiritual
You could listen to
his words and apply
them to your spiritual
He only would let
people attend his
talk for two weeks,
He said everyone has
a guru inside. You are
already connected to
He gave no initiations
or put anyone higher
He introdced me to
a way of spiritual
thinking that I apply
> Hello All,
> Well, it seems that this
> needs a response merely
> to correct some of the
> inaccurate info on Darwin
> if nothing else.
> Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and Higher H.I.s?
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: shabdamoksha <shabdamoksha@...>
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 6, 2012 8:09 PM
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and
>Higher HI's?" I emailed Prometheus a response but I will repeat it here. I am an
> Dear Eckankar Survivors Anonymous,
> Responding to your recent post titled: "Why doesn't Eckankar have more and
Ex-Eckist who was a former member of Eckankar for over 17 years. During that
time I had several leadership positions such as a state wide service leader.
>Eckankar can only bring individuals up to the mental plane. Cosmic consciousness
> ME: This leadership position
> must have been a very long
> time ago. I recall State and
> Local Rep positions. Actually
> I forget all the titles. It's like
> trying to remember the various
> words describing ECKankar...
> A Way of Life, The Path of
> Total Awareness, etc., etc.
> The reason that Eckankar cannot give higher initiation levels is because
is the highest level that Eckankar can bring individuals. That is true now but
it wasn't true during Paul Twichell's time. After Paul Twitchell translated it
became a cosmic consciousness path. There are several reasons for this. A reason
why there are also no Masters in Eckankar is because currentlly Eckankar creates
followers and not spiritual masters. As I explained it brings people to cosmic
>declared a successor. He only left a list of six names. The Eckankar leadership
> ME: No! ECKankar (Klemp) can
> and does sell higher initiation
> levels... just not that many 8ths
> or 9ths. And they're as invalid
> as any other religious initiation
> being handed out and sold via
> membership requirements (fees/
> donations). Consciousness has
> to be recognized and achieved
> by the individual and not handed
> out by others. Paul Twitchell was
> no "master" he was a conman,
> liar, wannabe and plagiarist.
> Cosmic Consciousness is merely
> a term used by New Age Westernized
> religious sects to describe the
> benefits of their brand of religion.
> The first reason is that in 1971 when Paul Twitcell translated he never
which included Gail Twitchell, Patty Simpson and others chose Darwin Gross who
was not a Master but only a ninth initiate. Instead when Paul died he gave
Rebazar the rod of power and brought the true path of Eckankar non-public and at
that moment the outer Eckankar became an offshoot. It was at that moment that
Eckankar was no longer the highest path to God even though it claimed to be.
>Realization in 25 years and he guaranteed an initiate can reach God Realization
> ME: Darwin was dating Gail behind
> Paul's back. DG had only been
> an EK member since around 1968
> and was a third initiate at the time
> of Paul's death. Gail claimed to
> have had a dream where Paul told
> her that Darwin was to be the LEM.
> Gail was running the show and
> had the Board's support. Darwin
> was made a 5th initiate by the EK
> Board in order to receive the Rod
> of ECK Power on Oct 22, 1971...
> 35 days after Paul's death.
> The Rebazar fill-in story was
> one that was dreamed up by
> Klemp. After all, there was no
> need for a fill-in Mahanta since
> the Mahanta was still Paul and
> the story is that there has always
> been a Mahanta whether in a
> physical body or not... not every
> LEM is a Mahanta. A picture was
> done showing Paul giving the
> Rod to Darwin.
> Klemp altered this story to fit
> the dogma requiring a LEM to
> pass the Rod. And, HK inferred
> that Darwin was a 13th initiate
> and was merely a Mahanta "in
> training" and not a "full" Mahanta
> like himself. Thus, the Blue
> Carnations given to Darwin
> when he went on stage only
> indicated that DG was a
> Only the LEM needs a physical
> body. The ECK dogma requires
> the LEM to pass the Rod (position)
> to the next LEM. Thus, the ageless,
> imaginary Rebazar who Paul
> dreamed up to initiate him is
> the natural choice for fill-in.
> Rebazar Tarzs, supposedly,
> has his same 500 year old
> physical body and took the
> place of the Living ECK Master
> (Paul) for 35 days in order to
> pass the Rod of ECK Power
> to a fake Master (Darwin) who,
> later, passed it to Klemp! This
> way Klemp can die while in
> office and RT, via Joan's dream,
> can pass the Rod to her choice.
> Of course, Rebazar didn't really
> fill-in as LEM for 35 days because
> he was nowhere in sight! He
> didn't attend any "physical"
> meetings or take any calls
> or make himself available as
> Klemp would have ECKists
> imagine. It didn't happen!
> Can't these longtime ECKists
> remember? No memos or
> articles either! Besides, did
> RT really have to fill-in for
> 35 days as LEM as Klemp
> claims? RT, actually, only
> needed to fill-in for 35 seconds
> in order to Pass the Rod.
> Paul Twitchell made a guarantee that initiates can usually reach God
in this life time or the next.
>the (next) life. Paul brought initiates up through initiations quickly. The
> My friend said: If that guarantee is true than all Eckists would reach it in
reason modern Eckankar has what is called "The Glass Ceiling in Eckankar" is for
>a sixth initiate.
> The first reason is it would disturb the status quo.
> The second reason is that Harold although a good person he is only a sharadda,
>helped to bring me many inner experiences, love, and some karmic help. However
> I do not care to talk negatively about people for when I was in Eckankar he
even though a shradda is not a spiritual Master, a sixth initiate is still a
powerful spiritual being.
>success in spiritual exercises on the inner planes mostly in the lower worlds.
> ME: Wait a minute! God Realization,
> as well as, Self Mastery and Spiritual
> Freedom was guaranteed for "this"
> lifetime as long as one reached the
> 5th. There was no "next" lifetime
> after reaching the 2nd initiation!
> BTW- Klemp is a liar, deceiver and
> an arrogant wannabe. He sought
> those phony book awards by fellow
> publishing companies and paid to be
> listed in Who's Who. HK's not a 6th
> either. Twit created a bunch of
> initiation levels as carrots to be
> dangled in order to appease egos,
> thus, they're all phony and Twitchell,
> their creator, was the phoniest!
> No one has power over you unless
> you give them power... remember
> that? You helped yourself by thinking
> it was someone else. You could
> have placed your attention and
> faith in other areas or with non-living
> "masters" and had the same outcome
> and benefits. What they (the religious
> conmen) don't want you to know
> is that as Soul... YOU are your
> own teacher and master.
> Sure, you can take tid-bits and
> insights from others but don't
> rely upon them...that's the trap!
> Take responsibility and invent
> your own personal relationship
> and religion with YOU and Spirit.
> Besides, what has Klemp said
> that Paul didn't already say via
> his plagiarism of Sant Mat...
> which was another phony religion.
> While a former member of Eckankar, my partner had an extremely high level of
(They were not his imagination) But after 29 years of successful practice he was
still only a 4th initiate. He hit the "Glass Ceiling in Eckankar" and could go
no higher. He felt trapped in the lower worlds and blamed himself. Physically he
was practically dyeing from lack of adequate outflow in spite of his loving
efforts. He was having lots of inner experiences with Paul Twitchell, Rebazar,
and other Masters. I also had many inner experiences but felt held back.
>answered and we both had profound light and sound God Worlds experiences with
> ME: I had some very phenomenal
> experiences prior to Eckankar, while
> in TM, and these weren't imagined
> either. BTW- This 4th hadn't hit the
> "Glass Ceiling in Eckankar." Maybe
> for the outer effort he wanted to
> put into it he had. The "outflow"
> supposedly comes from volunteering
> for intros, as a Satsang Arahata,
> and for local leadership positions,
> etc. There had to be something
> "wrong" with a person who has 29
> years in and is still a 4th. Did he
> fall asleep during meetings, classes,
> and at the EWS and say he was
> getting it all on the "inner?" That's
> frowned upon by RESAs and is
> probably why he wasn't promoted
> if that was the case. I knew of a
> guy who was a 4th with the same
> amount of time as a 4th and this
> was his problem. Maybe it was
> the same guy. I think he finally
> got promoted to the 5th when
> a friend of his became the RESA.
> Shortly after this we called out to God for God Realization. Our call was
the true successor of Paul Twitchel. We had profound experiences of being
brought up to higher states of consciousness much more quickly than Eckankar.
Eckankar is currently only an offshoot and no longer the highest path to God.
>individuals. It is a common misconception that Spiritual Masters are made of
> ME: And who was the "true successor"
> of Paul.... Bernie Madeoff (sic?)? Gail?
> Oops! It couldn't be Gail since it has to
> be a guy right? That old negative atom
> polarity thingie right? So, Eckankar is
> an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot.
> What does that make this other "highest
> path?" Sikhism had the Radasoami offshoot.
> Ruhani Satsang was the offshoot of this
> that Twitchell joined under Kirpal Singh
> and then he created his own offshoot
> Eckankar. So, do you follow the offshoot
> created by Twitchell? True, Klemp created
> his own offshoot of the original Eckankar
> created by Twitchell.
> No person is perfect and it is pointless to dwell on the many human flaws of
plastic, perfect beings incapable of human mistakes and human emotions. Yes, as
many say Paul made human mistakes, because masters are not perfect as many
falsely assume. Masters have emotions and make human errors. The mythology that
masters are perfect is a myth that keeps people believing that Mastership is an
impossible goal of some far distant future, never to be had by any humble
person. But Paul was a true Master even though he made some mistakes. People can
dwell on such superficiality of his tiny mistakes until the cows jump over the
moon but they will never learn the truth because they don't want God.
>experience they were so focused on their initiation, status, dogma, personality
> ME: Is Rebazar Tarzs perfect?
> What mistakes has he made?
> You see, Rebazar is perfect
> because Rebazar is imaginary!
> Rebazar's existence is myth!
> When I shared with a few close friends in Eckankar about my God Realization
worship, habit pattern thought that they didn't hear a word of it or care to
know anything about it. They built a 12 foot high wall of fear and were quick to
judge me. Another friend did care and his life changed overnight.
>the safety of closed off beliefs to embracing God. All I wanted was God. And I
> I feel too many people prefer spiritual fluff, distractions, status, dogma, or
prayed to God for three days to be shown who is the true Mahanta who could bring
me to God and my call was answered. What is the point of being in Eckankar if
not to connect with God, and reach self and God Realization in this life and not
a million years from now.
>Realization because they are afraid to become the spiritual giant that they
> It is like Paul Twichell once said: Only the bold and adventurous find God.
> Many people don't want a true connection with God, Self Realization, or God
already are. I am a spiritual master now and it doesn't concern me if no one
believes me or knows. But I am concerned if people who want to truly connect
with God or God Realization don't because they are being misled by people who
don't love them truly.
> May the blessings be, Shabdamoksha [end]
> ME: God Realization experiences
> are subjective. It was probably
> a Cosmic Consciousness experience.
> Just kidding. However, a rose
> is still a rose by any other name.
> I try not to get caught up in
> classifying, pigeon holing, and
> judging my own private, personal,
> unique spiritual experiences.
> What do I know? True, people
> do go for the religious bullshit.
> New Agers are just as much the
> suckers and fools (not for God)
> as the hugely populated religions.
> BTW- Twit also stated (long ago)
> in the Square Peg article that he
> was a Cliffhanger and that the
> Cliffhanger is his own religion!
> There's a point in everyone's
> life when they has learned enough
> that they no longer need to be
> a joiner. Soul doesn't need mental
> plane dogma and a physical plane
> religion or a master. IT is the Master
> and always has a relationship with