> This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just found it as I don't often check my emails . . . I hope you don't mind that I copy and pasted your comments here as they are a follow up to the discussion thread regarding Klemp's silence on Darwin's death. Obviously, Ratapesce finds logic of little use regarding belief in religions and I have to agree with him because there is little or no logic to be found in most religious teachings . . . Anyway, I find Ratapesce's comments interesting and I do agree also that it is his right to believe or follow whatever he wants as long as it is legal to do so! : )
Thanks for posting this! I find Ratapesce's comments also interesting and so typical of a religious follower!. I wanted to post this earlier but got distracted, but here it is, eventually!
> BTW, I am not angry about eckankar but I am interested in Truth. Eckankar and Klemp are rather amusing to me! LOL!
******I agree because anger would be wasted as eckankar won't go away but I do believe that information about the dark side of eckankar is absolutely necessary as the ekkies tend to describe eckankar as a path of pure love, which it isn't! So, see more comments below
> Here's the message . . . thank you, Ratapesce:
> Hello Mish,
> First I thank you for your response to my post. I am glad someone actually took the time to read it and consider its contents. The following is my response to whay you wrote.>
I am open to anything and everything. Matter of fact I have been criticized, laughed at, ridiculed and who knows what else during my lifetime. This has just made me stronger and has allowed me to truly know what I believe in. Only when someone tries very hard to challenge one's faith can one truly discover what they truly believe in.
******That is sad - but it's certainly not only ekkies who have to endure ridiculisation in their lifetime! I agree though that this kind of experience makes us stronger.
>In my case I am a firm believer of Eckankar and I will do so for the rest of my life. What other people believe is really up to them. As Mother Teresa said "in the end it was never between you and them. It was always between you and God". So who one chooses God to be is up to them. As for me I know Sugmad, the Mahanta and Eckankar are for me. You have to decide what is right for you. I can not tell you what to do in that respect.
*****I keep wondering every time somebody talks about god like that, would god really be so interested in what we think?? Doesn't he (or she, or it) have better things to do? I do agree that belief is a very personal thing. I believe in life and its wonders; there is so much to be grateful for! No need for a god in this respect. Furthermore, I have accepted that not every question can be answered and that some don't even require an answer. However, that's what religions are trying all the time - seeking answers and thus keeping the flock - and their money - close to the master! LOL!
> You mention the truth about Klemp and to rationalize what is not really apparent due in part to Klemp's silence... it is really an org. created and based on lies. I have never tried to rationalize Eckankar or anything associtaed with Eckankar.
****** Yeah, as Mish said - that's the point! You don't question eckankar when you'd better! Then, of course, it would fall apart. That's why it's gross to even mention the mind! LOL!
>A religion must be experienced, not rationalized. The mind uses logic to rationalize. This is the trap many philosophies fall into.
****** And the trap the ekkies and the followers of other religions fall into too! It's just the other way round - they fall into the trap of not questioning at all!
>They try to rationalize everything and soon realize that a lot of things just don't make any sense. Is Eckankar based on lies? Does anyone really know the true fabric of the universe? Does anyone really know the origins of man? Does anyone truly know why George Bush went to war against Iraq? Does anyone really know if the September 11, 2001 bombing was a done by AL-Qaeda or some other organization?
****** How important is knowing the absolute truth to all these questions, and what exactly is the "absolute truth"? Doesn't it quite depend on your personal truth/point of view?
>What may appear to be truth today may appear to be a lie tomorrow and vice versa. Only a select few really know what occurs and I am not one of them. So I do not spend my energies trying to rationalize Religion or Christianity or Judaism or Eckankar or Islam or ATOM. It's really up to the individual what they want to believe in.
******I think that not even a select few know it - for me, for a start, there are no "select few"! That's why I don't spend my energy in following any religion and their "masters". Masters are everywhere - in my work and private environment, as colleagues and friends, and I can learn from them anywhere and everywhere. No need to follow fictitional masters and spending money on religious organisations!
> You do not accept my statement that Darwin is free to do what he wants to do and that Soul is free to do what it wants to do and Darwin is free to do whatever he wants to do.
****** Wow, all the "what he/it wants to do"s make one a bit confused, don't they! LOL!
>The following is one of my experiences. A few years ago I had a heart attack. There I lay on the hospital bed being operated on. I wake up and I am talking to the Mahanta. The Mahanta asks me what I want to do. I reply I want to raise my children. I want to be there for my children and be their father. Shortly thereafter I wake up and the surgeon tells me I had a heart attack. I was surprised by what he said. A couple of years later a Higher Initiate in Eckankar informed me I was supposed to die during my heart attack. But I did not die.
****** Now I'd really like to know how this HI could know that you were supposed to die?? Was he there?? Somebody I knew some time ago told me about a similar experience where she could choose to either go back and live or just leave for good. The conclusion I have drawn is that there might be incidents in life which I've come to call "points of translation", as opposite to "a point of no return". When an individual hits a point of translation, they can still choose what they want while at the point of no return, they have to go.
>Instead I chose to live. The Mahanta allowed me to live even though my time was up and I should have translated. So you see as Soul we are free to do what we want..
****** See above. I don't think we (=what you call "Soul") can do what we want, not always.
>Of course that choice to live has responsibilities. Nothing is free. So you see as Soul we are free to choose what we want. We have free will.
******Not in all instances, no. I think we have free will within the limits of what we are and what our mission is, which experiences we need for a !greater good! (or for our own good).
>I read in a book once that a certain yogi was talking to his disciples. He then sat down and informed them his time was up. He layed down and translated. So you see some souls do know when they will die. He knew ahead of time when his time was up. It is very possible that Darwin knew when he was translating.
******Well, maybe they did, and maybe they didn't! Who can say? I wouldn't dare make such a sweeping statement - but well, as you are an ekkie and have all the higher wisdom, of course you can! LOL!
> You make the following statement:
> "Those Wonderful Eck Masters they age and die. Of course, those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't change or die . . . they never lived!!" Have you mentioned this to members of ATOM.
****** Not necessary, as I'm fairly sure that Mish doesn't believe in Atom either! So don't I! LOL! I can live my life without any master except the ones I encounter in my everyday life!
>So they use Boucharan Masters and not Eck Masters. They look like the same Masters to me. Maybe they do exist and maybe they don't exist. Would you believe me if I told you I actually spoke to a few of them in my dreams? Would you call me a nut case? You see we all have different experiences. Just because you have never met anyone does not mean they don't exist. I never met Stephen Harper. But I believe he exists.
******This has nothing to do with being a nutcase or not, in my view. Of course you see the beings your path requires you see. If you really believe in something and are following a path earnestly, of course you will end up encountering the beings your path is dealing with! This phenomenon is plain and simply a psychological reality and nothing else. Meeting or not meeting personalities whose existence is proven (as is Stephen Harper's) is a whole different thing, compared with fictitional masters nobody ever heard of and who are a reality only within eckankar. Claiming that people like Rami Nuri are eck masters doesn't prove anything - who else outside of ekkiekar could certify this?
> Then you state Klemp certainly hasn't slowed the aging process. On planet earth we all have physical bodies. Paul Twitchell had a physical body. I have a physical body and Harold Klemp has a physical body.
****** Yeah, and look at Rebbie Tarzs! He doesn't appear a day older than 46, and then he is 500 years old or older! Maybe this has to do with the fact that nobody has ever seen Rebbie other than in dreams and ekkie experiences! Show me anybody who has seen Rebbie in physical reality! Thus it is easy to say Rebbie is 500 years old, and look at him when you are confronted with good old (in the true sense of the word!) Harry in his physical body! Accept that eckankar can't prove what they are claiming because Klemp is about 66 and looks every day like it and even older than that!
>Any powers that we have should be used wisely. If someone is able to change their body such that it does not get old, then good for them.
****** Again, look at Rebbie Tarzs! And eckankar does claim that the bodies of the ekkie masters don't age - too bad that Harry can't prove this with his own body!
>How many humans do you know that will never die? It's only a physical body. Maybe the human race was designed to have a physical body which gets old and dies? Maybe Klemp's body is attacked by the Kal and can only take so much? Maybe Paul Twitchell's body was also attacked by the Kal and it got old too? Maybe Darwin's body got attacked by the Kal and got old too? The point is who really cares if anyone can make their bodies immortal? I believe my soul is immortal and that is all that counts. My physical body is only temporary.
******Yeah, and who is Kal by the way? Everything that's bad is ascribed to the dealings of Kal. Poor guy, he always gets the blame whereas suggie is always the good guy! LOL! Of course we have bodies that get old and die, it's a well and widely known fact! LOL! Again, how about this claim of eckankar that the bodies of the masters don't get old? It's really (Re)bizarre. LOL!
> Overall I sense that you are upset at Eckankar and at Harold Klemp.
****** You "sense"? Did you get that on the inner? LOL! As we all were once part of the organisation we feel we have the right to speak out. This has nothing to do with being upset. Of course, shortly after leaving eckankar, I felt like a fool of having been duped so much! This has changed over time and now I'm just leading my happy life without any restrictions!
>One of the fundamental principles of any true religion is the Golden Heart. Eckankar makes reference to the Golden Heart all the time.
****** Yeah, another psychological reality is "talk most about what you don't have"! Eckankar is not about love, not at all. It's about power, membership and money!
>Give Love to all and hatred to none. Harold Klemp does not wish anyone any harm.
****** Is that so? Did you ever read Harry wishing the wrath of the eck over all those who might influence ekkies into leaving eckankar? Well, Harry certainly can't take a joke in this case!
>Fact is Darwin left Eckankar many years ago. He left long before I joined Eckankar. So I can truly say I know very little of Darwin. I googled his name a few times just to see what he was doing. I found the website of ATOM.org. I read what was in it and then left. I concluded Darwin found his own path and I was happy for him
****** Well, it's your choice what you spend your time on ... LOL!
> Now we come to when Klemp will mention Darwin's death. I have no idea if Harold Klemp will ever make a public statement concerning the death of Darwin Gross. If it makes you feel better Wikipedia states Darwin Gross died on March 8, 2008. I hope that makes you feel better.
****** Ratapesce, it's not a question if it makes Mish, or anyone else for that part, feel better. You're talking in circles around the real issue: Darwin was the MAHANTA, THE LIVING ECK MASTER at the time, and he was SEEN, RESPECTED and WORSHIPPED AS SUCH and CALLED that. Now don't you find it odd that, even if Darwin "fell from grace" later, Harry isn't inclined to lose even a few words about that? Well, we all know that eckankar wants to make the "fall from grace" forgotten, but it can't be eradicated. There are too many people in eckankar who remember - and pass on the information, even involuntarily because it's strictly forbidden to mention Darwin's name officially. Plus, Darwin was Harry's "master" who initiated him!
> Now maybe we can all be happy and try to get along as a species. The Kal is very good at manipulating us and testing us. Do you see the tricks of the Kal? The Kal is very,very good at what it does. Everytime someone has a negative emotion it is because the Kal was able to get to them. Imagine if you were a true God Realized Master. Would anything really get to you? Would you get angry?
******Why should we do that? How much fun is it living a life of a so-called god realised master, without any emotions and far away from living a fulfilled life? Doesn't god-realised rather mean that everything worth living is removed from you? How could we serve life by living in such circumstances?
> Think about this and then you will see how the Kal plays tricks with us and tries to fool us. The trick is to get to a point where the Kal can't affect you anymore. Now this is very hard to do. It is almost impossible to do. But we try anyway.
******Yeah yeah the kal the kal - what a bad guy!! And how easy it is to credit him with all the negative! LOL!
> So be cool, get down and stay loose, bro. It isn''t worth getting upset about. The whole physical un iverse is one huge computer program called the Matrix and Kal Niranjan or the Devil or whatever name you want to give it created this computer program. The sooner you realize this the better it will be for you. Try rationalizing that just for fun. You want a real challenge, try rationalizing the Matrix we live in. Very soon you will see the tricks of the Kal Niranjan.
******A typical ekkie reaction ... you all know what is "good" and "bad" and what is worth getting upset about or not, do you? What arrogance! As the "chosen people" you must know what life is all about indeed! Do you have any scientific proof that the physical universe is as you describe it? If so, please let me know - for the time being, I rather suspect that it's all speculation and that you got it "on the inner". LOL! First of all, I'd suggest you separate fact from fiction and don't take all your inner experiences at face value!
> Be cool, hang loose and stay calm, bro. And whatever you do, don't get angry.
****** And blah ... :-) thanks for all the hot air! LOL!
> Baraka Bashad,
****** Yeah, and cheers to you too! :-D