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Reply | Forward Message #12443 of 12782 |
Re: [wc] definition

Frank:

>he hasn't had the same experiences, hasn't gotten under Christianity's >skin. I
was trying to say something similar about anthroposophy. A >materialist can have
read every word Steiner and others wrote or said, >but his conclusions about the
essence (a word destined to annoy here) >of anthroposophy will inevitably be
distorted by his prejudices and >lack of the necessary *experience*.


One problem with this assertion regarding critics is that anthroposophists
(including yourself on numerous occasions, Frank) frequently assert the
opposite, and the opposite is more accurate. Can't have this both ways. The
actual problem is that so many critics *do* get it from the inside - and I mean
"get it" in just the way you're describing. How come we're so often told we're
"secretly in love" with anthroposophy etc.? This is closer to the truth. I
actually agree with you it would be very difficult to criticize it accurately
and meaningfully for someone who truly had no internal sympathy or experiential
connection to what anthroposophy teaches.

There are sometimes, over the years, people writing here about anthroposophy who
are "off" on the basic gist of anthroposophy, seeing merely (understandably so)
things anthroposophists do in action that confound or enrage them (most often,
unkind behavior to children). (It is rarely worth trying to correct the small
misconceptions or misunderstandings these people express about anthroposophy.)

I understand anthroposophy from "under the skin" sometimes so well I scare
myself. It is *exactly* because I know just what anthroposophists are on about
that I can say anything about it at all. I know exactly what they mean 95% of
the time - I just reject it. *That* is what gets anthroposophists really mad -
not people who "don't get it." People who don't get it usually just go away
-often angry about weird shit that happened to their children, but they dust
themselves off and move on, and proceed to ignore anthroposophy for the rest of
their lives.

Those people are not a problem for anthroposophy, as there are always more of
them where they came from, willing to sign up their children based on misleading
PR and quaint notions like "preserving childhood" or to avoid standardized
testing or because they think there will be less bullying in a Waldorf school.

The people who *get it and reject it* are where your problem lies, Frank - they
are the people who make a problem for the anthroposophy movement.




Sun Nov 8, 2009 3:52 pm

winters_diana
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Message #12443 of 12782 |
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What about those of us who at one time read Steiner in earnest... from an Anthroposophical perspective... picked up on the "essence" of Anthroposophy and THEN...
petekaraiskos
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Nov 8, 2009
3:28 pm

... One problem with this assertion regarding critics is that anthroposophists (including yourself on numerous occasions, Frank) frequently assert the...
winters_diana
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Nov 8, 2009
3:54 pm

Well... there ya go... I had to explain to Highland Hall why what they are teaching is racist. They wouldn't listen privately - so I did it publicly - and let...
petekaraiskos
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Nov 8, 2009
4:09 pm

... And this is also why we have to be told we're "evil," not just critics but "enemies" of anthroposophy etc. It is inconceivable to anthroposophists that...
winters_diana
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Nov 8, 2009
4:13 pm

... Yes, that is often the case. You evidently find this hard to believe. Could you say why? It is very normal for non-adherents of a particular worldview to...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 7, 2009
7:58 pm

This exchange (below) between Frank and Peter is a keeper. I hope this thread continues and/or at least Frank tries to understand the "essence" of Peter's...
awaldenpond@...
awaldenpond
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Nov 8, 2009
12:07 am

... Hi. I agree. I'll toss in two cents from a perspective I know a little about: literature. (Stick with me, please. I'll get to the issues important to this...
Roger Rawlings
downfromfog
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Nov 8, 2009
5:56 pm

Good morning Frank, ... That is what public discussion is about. When anthroposophists and non-anthroposophists discuss anthroposophy in public, what they...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 8, 2009
4:56 pm

... And they can discuss them here, too. They just can't expect non-believers to treat their statements about their experiences of the "essence" of...
winters_diana
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Nov 8, 2009
6:06 pm

2009/11/8 winters_diana <diana.winters@...> ... Yes. And I'd love to hear more about these essences. (It is a different discussion though -- not a...
alicia h.
zooey_stockholm
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Nov 10, 2009
9:49 am

... Hey, Dan, doesn't this come under your ad hominem rule - an outright defamatory lie about a contributor to the list? Frank...
Frank
eltrigal78
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Nov 9, 2009
1:39 pm

It can't be an outright defamatory lie considering it can be demonstrated with good old empirical evidence from various internet postings. Of course, as per...
winters_diana
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Nov 9, 2009
2:53 pm

... Or utterly compatible with it. That's one of the severe limitations on 'essence' arguments. Every anthroposophist thinks she or he has discovered the True...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
2:18 am

Hello Peter, You wrote: Or utterly compatible with it. I agree with your point. And not wanting to get on Frank's back about this, as for the "essence and...
ericwijnants
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Nov 9, 2009
9:54 am

... Hi Peter. Yes, I agree. *What* believers believe is less important than that they *do* believe. The nub is belief, which may be rooted in solid fact and...
Roger Rawlings
downfromfog
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Nov 9, 2009
2:31 pm

... Gack. I don't know about the rest of you, but indeed my brain (or eyes, or something) sure misfires sometimes. By the above, as I hope was clear, what I...
Roger Rawlings
downfromfog
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Nov 9, 2009
2:38 pm

Hi Dennis, ... That depends on each person's attitude toward esotericism. There is no shortage of people in the world who have a very positive orientation...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
2:19 am

... To my mind Peter, the use of the word "ideological" kind of skews matters...at least for me. None the less, I'll have a go at answering your question...I...
Dennis
gaelman58
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Nov 9, 2009
6:34 pm

Hi Eric, ... Yes, that's one of the decidedly odd aspects of reactions like Frank's. Anthroposophy is supposed to be a science, yet its would-be defenders are...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
3:33 pm

Howdy Frank, ... Hmmm... what was that about pushing a button? Out of curiosity, why would this be a lie? Even if it were not true, how would that make it a...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
3:34 pm

... Personally, I think Frank would do well to get *more* anxious about it. He's anxious enough to sputter and act shocked, shocked - though not very...
winters_diana
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Nov 9, 2009
3:48 pm

Hi Roger, ... Yes, that's well put. This procedure is effectively impossible with 'essence' claims and pronouncements about personal experience and inner...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
3:43 pm

... Pete conjectures: True... it's basically a BFD to most of us... but... I'd like to make the point that we should care if what is in Anthroposophy is also...
petekaraiskos
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Nov 9, 2009
5:33 pm

... Good point. Frank's stated position is that holocaust denial is "insignificant" and that nobody should take it seriously. This head-in-the-sand approach...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
6:13 pm

... I'm sure that anthroposophists like Frank would like to see holocaust deniers and the like disassociated from anthroposophy. The problem they face is that...
winters_diana
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Nov 10, 2009
2:37 am

... Not to Frank! He thinks it's anti-racist. A few years ago Frank simply denied that this passage exists. Since then he seems to have resigned himself to...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
6:13 pm

Hi Peter, When we talk about the "essence" of Anthroposophy (and Frank's denial of his own racism) are we not talking about the *I* and where it resides? This...
petekaraiskos
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Nov 9, 2009
7:18 pm

Hi Dennis, ... No, of course not. As with any spiritual tradition, only a small fraction of members publish. Why would esoteric traditions be different in that...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
6:14 pm

... Hi Peter: What then is the difference between religion and esotericism?...regards, Dennis...
Dennis
gaelman58
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Nov 10, 2009
5:43 pm

Hi Dennis, ... Most religions are exoteric. The notion that they are founded on faith rather than knowledge is a standard esoteric conceit. Esotericism is a...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 10, 2009
11:35 pm
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