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Reply | Forward Message #12441 of 12780 |
Re: [wc] definition



--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "ericwijnants" <ericwijnants@...> wrote:
>
> Frank,
>
> Take for example the books of Rodney Stark here:
>
> http://www.rodneystark.com
>
> A non-believer writing about Christianity.
>
> And you think (evidenced by what he wrote in his books) he doesn't know more
about Christianity then the average 'believing Christian'?

Yes, of course he knows more about the history of Christianity, the characters
involved, etc. Albert Schweitzer wrote a book called "The Quest for the
Historical Jesus". The last paragraph of which reads as follows:
"He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lake-side, He
came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same word: "Follow thou
me!" and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfil for our time. He commands.
And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal
Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass
through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in
their own experience Who He is."

This at the end of a 400 page book in which Schweitzer analyzes what was known
about the history of Jesus at the time - and he comes to the above conclusion.
Stark may have done a better or more complete job in his historical research,
but he doesn't come to the same conclusion (I assume not, haven't read him)
because he hasn't had the same experiences, hasn't gotten under Christianity's
skin. I was trying to say something similar about anthroposophy. A materialist
can have read every word Steiner and others wrote or said, but his conclusions
about the essence (a word destined to annoy here) of anthroposophy will
inevitably be distorted by his prejudices and lack of the necessary
*experience*.
Frank








Sun Nov 8, 2009 2:51 pm

eltrigal78
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Message #12441 of 12780 |
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Frank, Take for example the books of Rodney Stark here: http://www.rodneystark.com A non-believer writing about Christianity. And you think (evidenced by what...
ericwijnants
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Nov 8, 2009
1:25 am

... Yes, of course he knows more about the history of Christianity, the characters involved, etc. Albert Schweitzer wrote a book called "The Quest for the...
Frank
eltrigal78
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Nov 8, 2009
2:53 pm

What about those of us who at one time read Steiner in earnest... from an Anthroposophical perspective... picked up on the "essence" of Anthroposophy and THEN...
petekaraiskos
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Nov 8, 2009
3:28 pm

... One problem with this assertion regarding critics is that anthroposophists (including yourself on numerous occasions, Frank) frequently assert the...
winters_diana
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Nov 8, 2009
3:54 pm

Well... there ya go... I had to explain to Highland Hall why what they are teaching is racist. They wouldn't listen privately - so I did it publicly - and let...
petekaraiskos
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Nov 8, 2009
4:09 pm

... And this is also why we have to be told we're "evil," not just critics but "enemies" of anthroposophy etc. It is inconceivable to anthroposophists that...
winters_diana
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Nov 8, 2009
4:13 pm

... Yes, that is often the case. You evidently find this hard to believe. Could you say why? It is very normal for non-adherents of a particular worldview to...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 7, 2009
7:58 pm

This exchange (below) between Frank and Peter is a keeper. I hope this thread continues and/or at least Frank tries to understand the "essence" of Peter's...
awaldenpond@...
awaldenpond
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Nov 8, 2009
12:07 am

... Hi. I agree. I'll toss in two cents from a perspective I know a little about: literature. (Stick with me, please. I'll get to the issues important to this...
Roger Rawlings
downfromfog
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Nov 8, 2009
5:56 pm

Good morning Frank, ... That is what public discussion is about. When anthroposophists and non-anthroposophists discuss anthroposophy in public, what they...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 8, 2009
4:56 pm

... And they can discuss them here, too. They just can't expect non-believers to treat their statements about their experiences of the "essence" of...
winters_diana
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Nov 8, 2009
6:06 pm

2009/11/8 winters_diana <diana.winters@...> ... Yes. And I'd love to hear more about these essences. (It is a different discussion though -- not a...
alicia h.
zooey_stockholm
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Nov 10, 2009
9:49 am

... Hey, Dan, doesn't this come under your ad hominem rule - an outright defamatory lie about a contributor to the list? Frank...
Frank
eltrigal78
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Nov 9, 2009
1:39 pm

It can't be an outright defamatory lie considering it can be demonstrated with good old empirical evidence from various internet postings. Of course, as per...
winters_diana
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Nov 9, 2009
2:53 pm

... Or utterly compatible with it. That's one of the severe limitations on 'essence' arguments. Every anthroposophist thinks she or he has discovered the True...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
2:18 am

Hello Peter, You wrote: Or utterly compatible with it. I agree with your point. And not wanting to get on Frank's back about this, as for the "essence and...
ericwijnants
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Nov 9, 2009
9:54 am

... Hi Peter. Yes, I agree. *What* believers believe is less important than that they *do* believe. The nub is belief, which may be rooted in solid fact and...
Roger Rawlings
downfromfog
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Nov 9, 2009
2:31 pm

... Gack. I don't know about the rest of you, but indeed my brain (or eyes, or something) sure misfires sometimes. By the above, as I hope was clear, what I...
Roger Rawlings
downfromfog
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Nov 9, 2009
2:38 pm

Hi Dennis, ... That depends on each person's attitude toward esotericism. There is no shortage of people in the world who have a very positive orientation...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
2:19 am

... To my mind Peter, the use of the word "ideological" kind of skews matters...at least for me. None the less, I'll have a go at answering your question...I...
Dennis
gaelman58
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Nov 9, 2009
6:34 pm

Hi Eric, ... Yes, that's one of the decidedly odd aspects of reactions like Frank's. Anthroposophy is supposed to be a science, yet its would-be defenders are...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
3:33 pm

Howdy Frank, ... Hmmm... what was that about pushing a button? Out of curiosity, why would this be a lie? Even if it were not true, how would that make it a...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
3:34 pm

... Personally, I think Frank would do well to get *more* anxious about it. He's anxious enough to sputter and act shocked, shocked - though not very...
winters_diana
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Nov 9, 2009
3:48 pm

Hi Roger, ... Yes, that's well put. This procedure is effectively impossible with 'essence' claims and pronouncements about personal experience and inner...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
3:43 pm

... Pete conjectures: True... it's basically a BFD to most of us... but... I'd like to make the point that we should care if what is in Anthroposophy is also...
petekaraiskos
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Nov 9, 2009
5:33 pm

... Good point. Frank's stated position is that holocaust denial is "insignificant" and that nobody should take it seriously. This head-in-the-sand approach...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
6:13 pm

... I'm sure that anthroposophists like Frank would like to see holocaust deniers and the like disassociated from anthroposophy. The problem they face is that...
winters_diana
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Nov 10, 2009
2:37 am

... Not to Frank! He thinks it's anti-racist. A few years ago Frank simply denied that this passage exists. Since then he seems to have resigned himself to...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
6:13 pm

Hi Peter, When we talk about the "essence" of Anthroposophy (and Frank's denial of his own racism) are we not talking about the *I* and where it resides? This...
petekaraiskos
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Nov 9, 2009
7:18 pm

Hi Dennis, ... No, of course not. As with any spiritual tradition, only a small fraction of members publish. Why would esoteric traditions be different in that...
Peter Staudenmaier
pstauden
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Nov 9, 2009
6:14 pm
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