--- In treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie E Caldwell"
<biothanetack@b...> wrote:
> Saddle Up Tack WWW.saddleuptack.com has some of the nicest mohair
girths
> with big wide buckles, buckle guards, and a center D I've ever
seen in
> sizes to fit little horses. My girl requires an 18" girth and
Susan is
> the only place that carries a decent pony Dressage girth I could
find.
> She's superb to deal with and has all sorts of fun things!

Cool!  Thx for the link. :)

~Nicole

--- In treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com, "Jena" <equus_blue@h...>
wrote:
> The saddle will slip depending on how you mount.  Most treeless
will
> I suppose.  Some riders are taught to pull themselves into the
> saddle using the pommel and cantle.  That will not work with my BM
> or the ST-C.  I try to find something to mount from or at least
> higher ground to get me up a bit more.  Then use my front hand (I
> mount either side) to hold the reins and a handful of mane.  When
> mounting I can pull with this hand.  My rear hand rests/stabilizes
> the seat of the saddle.  The rest is push from my legs.  I find
that
> with practice my treeless saddles slipped about the same as my
> english saddles.

Must be nice to be tall. :p

Seriously, I never use the pommel & cantle to pull myself up.  But,
at 5'2" I also don't get a lot of pushing help from the leg on the
ground -- if I'm mounting from flat ground that foot is on my tippy
toes.  And Phlyrt is only 14.1 (my others are 14.2 to just-under-
15.2 [which is probably highly entertaining to watch me mount]).

I hold mane and reins in my left hand, and ummm... what the heck AM
I doing with my right hand when I mount?  I'm always impressed by
people who can spell out the steps they do in these sorts of
activities; to me it's all just "second nature" and I never think
about it.

All that said, I still prefer some sort of mounting block. It's
better for the horse and a whole lot easier for me.

~Nicole

Saddle Up Tack WWW.saddleuptack.com has some of the nicest mohair girths
with big wide buckles, buckle guards, and a center D I've ever seen in
sizes to fit little horses. My girl requires an 18" girth and Susan is
the only place that carries a decent pony Dressage girth I could find.
She's superb to deal with and has all sorts of fun things!

Steph

--- In treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com, Lucy Chaplin Trumbull
<elsietee@f...> wrote:
> did you get the "normal" stirrup leathers? Or did
> you get the endurance fenders?

I was cheap and just used some leathers I already had.  I was really
hoping to put webbers on it (see other post to Jena!), but was stuck
on how to do that.  I'd had the suggestion of flipping the webbers
upside down and take apart the stirrups and slip the stirrups onto
the end of the webbers that doesn't open, but my trail stirrups are
fake E-Z Rides and I couldn't get those suckers dismantled to save
my life.

> I ended up with the fenders and whilst I've liked
> them, I also feel like I may have to punch a half
> hole in them. They feel a smidgin uneven, but I have
> yet to take them off and compare them to each other
> to see if they are punched unevenly, or if it's sommat
> I'm doing in the way I'm riding (lopsided?).

LOL!  Well, I AM lopsided, so ALL stirrups feel uneven to me,
unfortunately.  I have a slight upper spine deviation and it makes
my entire body just slightly off.  I'm 100% sure that's why Phlyrt's
white patch were worse on one side than the other with the Wintec.
I'm constantly amazed that my own unevenness doesn't do more damage
to the horses.  I also drive my dressage instructor batty.  :)

> I would agree with this. They just seem "right". Two-pointing
> is a cinch in this saddle.

I was just shocked when I first got up in this saddle. I've been
fighting saddles putting me in a chair seat for years.  This
saddle's position is just perfect.

> The *biggest* problem I've had, is getting unbalanced downhill.
> I tend to tip forwards really badly - a problem I didn't have
> with my BM SS.

I haven't experienced a downhill problem.  In fact, on the second 50
in this saddle I felt secure enough to just let Phlyrt FLY down a
long winding downhill trail.  I just got into two-point and let her
go.  It was a blast.  Felt like a roller coaster ride.  :)
Normally, I get paranoid allowing the horse to get THAT much speed
unchecked (I always worry about the horse getting hurt!).  But, this
time it just felt perfect and clearly she felt great doing it, too.
(I also kept checking the heart monitor b/c we were going so fast
for so long and her heart rate was low and was dropping -- gravity's
a wonderful thing.)

> I've currently got shoulder shims in addition to normal inserts
> stuck in my Toklat pad to tip the front of the saddle up and
> that has helped some, but I'm still tending to fall forwards.

Now, I would say I've had a bit of the opposite problem.  Falling
*backwards* when we first start going uphill.  But, it's not been a
consistant or huge problem.  I figured it was just me needing to get
used to the stirrup position after years of chair seats.

> At this stage, I'm not sure if the problem is that I've been
> riding in the BM SS for so long - and at 5'2", I have virtually
> *no* swing in those stirrups at all - so have gotten used to
> legs stuck in one position - a position which is further forwards
> than on my BF... or? The BF stirrups feel like they have *loads*
> of swing to them in comparison.
>
> Is it normal that when riding in an english saddle, you have to
> consciously move your legs forwards on steep downhills?

I'm also 5'2" and I've always ridden English (or bareback), but I
can't really tell you b/c if I do something of that nature it's no
longer conscious.  I just do whatever it is I do.  I'll try to pay
attention on my next ride and get back to you. :)

> I found the Barefoot rolls much less than my SS did and
> can mount from the ground much more easily if I have to.
> (I've even started doing an off-side mount to get on,
> for reasons I don't understand).

I should point out (if I didn't), that nearly ALL saddles roll on
mounting on my horses.  I'm not sure how much is them (wide backs,
but they all have decent withers) and how much is that I'm not into
tightening cinches much. ;)

> The other problem I've had is that if I saddle up
> not completely centered, I have a devil of a job
> getting the saddle straight. No amount of leaning/
> twisting in the stirrups to try and rotate it to the
> center seems to work, and I have to get off, loosen
> the cinch and manually straighten it.

LOL!  Yeah, I've had that problem, too.   Forgot about that.  Of
course, if the saddle is twisted it's better for the horse to
dismount, loosen and then rotate, so I guess it's probably OK that
this saddle forces you to do that.

> I have to buy my own girth, but it's so long since I've
> used english girths, I can't figure out what to get. I
> ride my SS in string/mohair cinches, but have liked the
> elastic so much on this borrowed one, that I'd love to
> get a string girth with elastic ends, but don't know if
> such a thing exists. I have bought a Wintec Stretchy
> waffle neoprene girth, but then realised it didn't have
> a breast collar ring in the center, so am holding off using
> it until I can visit a few tack stores to see what else is
> out there. (I have a biothane loop for the center BC ring,
> but would rather avoid using this if I can, since I know
> it'll drop off the girth and I'll lose it  :(    ) .

I have been using various neoprene dressage girths for years (with
elastic ends).  They never have the ring.  Believe it or not, I've
only lost one loop attachment (so I bought several more after that).

However, my stallion appears to be hypersensitive and can't wear
neoprene.  I knew I'd eventually end up with one of those horses.
I've been using a wool sleeve over the neoprene for him, and I also
bought a used fleece-lined girth (it seems to be synthetic, not
wool -- I haven't tried it yet to see if it irritates him or not).
I'm planning on getting a mohair girth from Sportack -- it has the
ring in the center.  Everyone says that mohair is really the way to
go with sensitive horses.  But, no, I've never seen a mohair girth
with elastic.

~Nicole

I also had a problem with "tipping forward" when I changed from BM
to the ST-C.  I think it must have something to do with the way the
stirrups are hung in the BM.  I am having to consiously remind my
self to open my hip and drop my heel.  It feels like I am pushing
the stirrups forward, but it really is just a classical
dressage/english position.  On down hills I push my feet forward to
keep them under me.

I bought the same girth!  I love it.  Right now I am using a plain
leather hunt style breast collar, that has a loop the girth goes
through.  After the ride this weekend I am going to take it to my
local saddle man and have him add a "D" for the endurance
breastcollar.  Should run less than $10.

Riding in the SS takes getting used to, which means your body
adjusts to ride in it.  It makes sense that switching to another
saddle that is designed differently would likewise take getting used
to.  Maybe find a local dressage instructor, or a knowledgable
friend to watch you ride and give you some tips on position until
you get a better feel for what is "right" in the new saddle.

Jena



--- In treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com, Lucy Chaplin Trumbull
<elsietee@f...> wrote:
> Nicole wrote:
>
> The *biggest* problem I've had, is getting unbalanced downhill.
> I tend to tip forwards really badly - a problem I didn't have
> with my BM SS.
>
> I've currently got shoulder shims in addition to normal inserts
> stuck in my Toklat pad to tip the front of the saddle up and
> that has helped some, but I'm still tending to fall forwards.
>
> At this stage, I'm not sure if the problem is that I've been
> riding in the BM SS for so long - and at 5'2", I have virtually
> *no* swing in those stirrups at all - so have gotten used to
> legs stuck in one position - a position which is further forwards
> than on my BF... or? The BF stirrups feel like they have *loads*
> of swing to them in comparison.
>
> Is it normal that when riding in an english saddle, you have to
> consciously move your legs forwards on steep downhills?
>
> Or is it that the stirrups are *too far* back for me (I'm
> almost wondering if I should have gone for the larger
> seat size?
>
> I seem to be getting better - but only if I physically
> move my legs and plant them forwards.
>
I have bought a Wintec Stretchy
> waffle neoprene girth, but then realised it didn't have
> a breast collar ring in the center, so am holding off using
> it until I can visit a few tack stores to see what else is
> out there. (I have a biothane loop for the center BC ring,
> but would rather avoid using this if I can, since I know
> it'll drop off the girth and I'll lose it  :(    ) .
>

Nicole wrote:
>I'm sold on the saddle....
>
>The only issue I've had with it so far is getting the stirrups the
>right length. But, I think I just need to punch a half-hole for that...

did you get the "normal" stirrup leathers? Or did
you get the endurance fenders?

I ended up with the fenders and whilst I've liked
them, I also feel like I may have to punch a half
hole in them. They feel a smidgin uneven, but I have
yet to take them off and compare them to each other
to see if they are punched unevenly, or if it's sommat
I'm doing in the way I'm riding (lopsided?).

>The stirrups are hung perfectly for me.  Even compared to dressage
>saddles, these stirrups are placed exactly under my body.


I would agree with this. They just seem "right". Two-pointing
is a cinch in this saddle.

The *biggest* problem I've had, is getting unbalanced downhill.
I tend to tip forwards really badly - a problem I didn't have
with my BM SS.

I've currently got shoulder shims in addition to normal inserts
stuck in my Toklat pad to tip the front of the saddle up and
that has helped some, but I'm still tending to fall forwards.

At this stage, I'm not sure if the problem is that I've been
riding in the BM SS for so long - and at 5'2", I have virtually
*no* swing in those stirrups at all - so have gotten used to
legs stuck in one position - a position which is further forwards
than on my BF... or? The BF stirrups feel like they have *loads*
of swing to them in comparison.

Is it normal that when riding in an english saddle, you have to
consciously move your legs forwards on steep downhills?

Or is it that the stirrups are *too far* back for me (I'm
almost wondering if I should have gone for the larger
seat size?

I seem to be getting better - but only if I physically
move my legs and plant them forwards.

>Oh, it does roll a bit if I try to mount from the ground...

I found the Barefoot rolls much less than my SS did and
can mount from the ground much more easily if I have to.
(I've even started doing an off-side mount to get on,
for reasons I don't understand).

The other problem I've had is that if I saddle up
not completely centered, I have a devil of a job
getting the saddle straight. No amount of leaning/
twisting in the stirrups to try and rotate it to the
center seems to work, and I have to get off, loosen
the cinch and manually straighten it. I'm borrowing
a friend's leather girth with elastic on one end (love
that elastic!! and love that easy-tightening-from-the-
saddle of english rigging that I haven't had for so
long with the SS), so maybe that cinch is really grippy.

I have to buy my own girth, but it's so long since I've
used english girths, I can't figure out what to get. I
ride my SS in string/mohair cinches, but have liked the
elastic so much on this borrowed one, that I'd love to
get a string girth with elastic ends, but don't know if
such a thing exists. I have bought a Wintec Stretchy
waffle neoprene girth, but then realised it didn't have
a breast collar ring in the center, so am holding off using
it until I can visit a few tack stores to see what else is
out there. (I have a biothane loop for the center BC ring,
but would rather avoid using this if I can, since I know
it'll drop off the girth and I'll lose it  :(    ) .

>I prefer to mount from
>mounting blocks (tree stumps, hay bales, picnic tables, truck
>bumpers...) for both myself and my horses' sake.

Yup, definitely!  :)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Lucy Chaplin Trumbull
elsietee AT foothill DOT net
Repotted english person in the Sierra foothills, California
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I took the stitching out that creates the closed loop at the top.
Then used 2 chicago srews (per webber) attached them to my stirrup
rings.  To protect the leather of my saddle I wrapped electrical
tape around the whole chicago screw area. *eventually*  I will have
a sheepkin cover made to protect the saddle and make it more cozy
for me.  :-)

Good luck!

Jena


--- In treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole" <z_arabs@y...>
wrote:
> OH!  Thank you thank you thank you!
>
> I stood around with my webbers trying to figure out how the heck to
> attach them -- my stirrups didn't want to come appart to flip the
> webbers upside down.
>
> Now I have a solution.  Do you use just a single chicago screw?  Or
> several for security??
>
> ~Nicole

--- In treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com, "Jena" <equus_blue@h...> wrote:
> I use Wintec
> Webbers that I took apart and used chicago screws to attach them to
> the saddle.  I was afraid of a big lump under my leg with regular
> leathers.  And if it is a lump to me, it is a lump to the horse.

OH!  Thank you thank you thank you!

I stood around with my webbers trying to figure out how the heck to
attach them -- my stirrups didn't want to come appart to flip the
webbers upside down.

Now I have a solution.  Do you use just a single chicago screw?  Or
several for security??

~Nicole

I have a Barefoot Cheyenne saddle.

I have been using a Wintec dressage for several years.  Unfortunately,
when I moved up to 50s on my mare Phlyrt, the saddle started causing
white spots behind her withers.  She never showed any signs of
soreness, but clearly the saddle was not fitting correctly.  She did 5
50s this year in that saddle, though.  After the fifth, I haven't put
it on her again.  I was riding her bareback and was even contemplating
if I could manage a 50 bareback. ;)

I had tried a demo of the Torsion dressage model and while I liked it,
I couldn't seem to get comfortable at the trot on it in the couple
rides I was able to take in the demo period.

I'd been eyeballing the Barefoot for a while, but was still hunting
and trying to make up my mind.  Then Candy announced that she'd have
Barefoot saddles available to ship without the waiting period and I
bit the bullet and got one without a demo.  I also bought an Equipedic
pad.

I love it.

The saddle arrived during the week prior to a 50 mile ride.  I'd hoped
to have it the weekend prior, but was able to go out for one 20 minute
ride in the dark during the week.  I took the saddle with me to the
ride, planning on doing the LD -- in either the new saddle or the
Wintec dressage (I really do like that saddle, but it's an LD and
arena saddle, not a 50 mile saddle for me and my horses).  On our
warm-up ride Friday afternoon I decided to "go for it" and ride in the
new saddle and go ahead and bump up to the 50; lunch was going to be
in camp so I could swap saddles if I needed to.  I also had my
bareback pad with me if push came to shove.

We finished the ride with all A's.  Phlyrt's back was great.  Now,
she's a tough horse to judge if a saddle's hurting her, since with the
Wintec she never had a sore back, either, and it was causing white
spots!  But, with the Barefoot she moved just like she does bareback,
and that's an appreciable difference in feel from her back vs in any
other saddle.

Two weeks later Phlyrt & I did another 50 in that saddle.

I'm sold on the saddle.  I've ridden a couple of my other horses in
it, and it seems to fit them all.  I will use it starting a 4 year old
(I've been on her a couple times bareback, I'll start using the
Barefoot now that she's going to really start working).

The only issue I've had with it so far is getting the stirrups the
right length. But, I think I just need to punch a half-hole for that
(somehow I never think of it when the holepunch is near).  And on the
first 50 in it I had to rotate the leathers so that the buckle wasn't
rubbing me -- unfortunately by the time my brain arrived at a solution
I already had huge bruises.

The stirrups are hung perfectly for me.  Even compared to dressage
saddles, these stirrups are placed exactly under my body.  And the
saddle is exremely comfortable.  But, I can certainly see why those
that don't like bareback wouldn't like it.  Like all saddles, I think
it comes down to what makes an individual comfortable, and this one
works for me and so far works for my horses as well.

Oh, it does roll a bit if I try to mount from the ground, but so do
most saddles on my wide-bodied critters. ;)  I prefer to mount from
mounting blocks (tree stumps, hay bales, picnic tables, truck
bumpers...) for both myself and my horses' sake.

~Nicole

Please excuse me digging into my archives, but the
information may be interesting to someone and it
saves having to retype stuff (lazy...)

Again, this was to the CTR list, with regard to
someone asking about what sheepskin covers worked
for SSs.

This email was from May 2004. Note that I'm now
using the long sheepskin cover described below on
my Barefoot Cheyenne. I tried the shorter one, but
couldn't resolve the "rucking up" problems I was
getting under my butt.

* * *

Avis MInger wrote:
> I'm thinking of getting something [cover], just because
> my Sport Saddle has a seam down the middle of
> the seat, and while I haven't had any problems
> with discomfort from that so far during lessons
> or short (1-2 hour) trail rides, I'm wondering
> if it might be a problem on a really long all day ride.

I very much doubt it'll cause a problem because
the seam is in the middle and you don't have stuff
in the middle... er...let's not go into too much
detail on that... <g>

> Any thoughts on seat padding generally (why you
> do or don't use it and what you like) or suggestions
> from people who ride Sports Saddles specifically
> and have used or not used seat padding on longer
> rides would be appreciated.

With a SS you don't need "padding" per se - but
a sheepskin cover is always a nice thing to have.
It's not that it makes the seat more cushy, so
much as it makes the saddle "fit" you.

You know that feeling you get when you put on a
pair of old shoes? that they really *fit* your feet?
That's the feeling you get with a sheepskin cover
once you've ridden in it for a while. A sort of
"welcome home" feeling every time you get on your
horse.

> Just for reference
> I'm riding a trail model made with endurance
> leather (no suede seat) with no horn, so the
> attachment system would need to work with no horn.

I've used three kinds of sheepskin cover with my
SSs. The first was specifically made for the SS.
There's a local lady, Tammy, who makes them. They
cover the entire saddle, minus the pommel, going
through the hole in the pommel and velcro-ing around
the sides, and also going up and over the cantle all
the way to the back edge of the saddle. She adds
little notches for the D-rings to poke through from
underneath. I can get her details if you're interested.
The cover fits the saddle like a glove.

After we sold that saddle (with the cover <sniff>)
to a friend when my husband decided he wanted a
different seat size, we had to buy a new cover
for the new saddle.

I got this one from Sportack and it was a standard
"western saddle" seat cover. It covers the seat part
and down the sides a little. It has grommets and
strings and you basically tie it to whatever you
can (D-rings, rigging, etc) in about five or six
places, and it has an elastic loop that goes around
the back of the cantle. Once it's securely tied, it
doesn't shift at all (although it'll take you fifteen
minutes to remove it <g>).

The only snag with it is that sometimes, upon mounting,
you can catch the back of it with your leg and flip
the back part down under your butt. This isn't a big
deal (it's easy enough to hotch up and flip it back
over the back of the saddle again), but if you're
fretful or panicky upon mounting, it may not work
for you.

The sheepskin that this pad was made of is the most
lovely lovely thick plush merino wool ever. Beware
that all merino wool is not equal. In an ideal world,
try and get to feel any sheepskin cover before you buy.
You want to pick the one that is the thickest, most-
dense wool. The wool on my third cover is also merino,
but it isn't as thick and isn't as nice and doesn't
seem to be wearing quite as well.

The third cover - which I ride in now (after giving
cover #2 to my husband) - also came from Sportack,
and goes all the way down to my ankles. The idea was
that I could ride in shorts. I seldom actually do,
but I liked the *idea* of it <g>. I bought this
cover over the web and, as I say, the wool isn't
quite as nice as my original, shorter cover.

They offer a "'spensive" version, and an "economy"
one. The economy one is made of more pieces of
sheepskin, so has more seams and I opted to get
that type. Although the seam under my thigh has
not caused any problems in riding tights, I can
see - from the way it's wearing - that it won't
work for riding in shorts. I also think it won't
last quite as long as the more expensive variety,
so it's up to you to figure out if getting one of
these is false economy or not. Mind you, the way
it's wearing could also be related to how I ride,
specifically.

Again, the cover was made for a Western saddle, so
it doesn't quite fit the way it would on a standard
western saddle, but I've not had any real problems
with it. And again, it's tied on with about 6-8
strings to various points on the saddle. Same
deal with the flipping the back part over sometimes
on mounting.

(Note, if you find a sheepskin cover is rucking up
anywhere, due to your saddle, or some funky way
you ride, you can always get a grommet kit, add
more grommets in strategic locations, and tie it
on even more securely.)

The biggest problem I've encountered with SSs is
that the bottom edge of the saddle flap can catch
the side of your knee, and create rubbing there.
Once the saddle's worn in, it's less of a problem,
but that was another reason I opted to go for an
ankle-length cover. It really depends how far/fast
you ride, and how smooth your horse is. When I just
had the short cover on the saddle and was riding
50s, I wore shipping boots to help my legs. The
one ride I forgot to put them on, I did get something
similar to a carpet burn on the insides of my knees
from the bottom of the flap (my saddle was fairly
new at the time, though).



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Lucy Chaplin Trumbull
elsietee AT foothill DOT net
Repotted english person in the Sierra foothills, California
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*

OK - this was a post I sent to the CTR list a month
or so ago and outlines the different BM Sportsaddles
I tried/liked/changed my mind/bought a different one, etc.

:)

It also talks about the Barefoot Cheyenne and why I
decided to get one.

* * * *

This kind of got long - sorry - but hopefully is
informative.

I've been riding in Sportsaddles (SS) of one model or
another for about six years, and really like them. I've
done AERC 50s and Open NATRC (incl a two-day ride) while
using SSs and haven't had any sore backs.

I initially bought my first SS because I had a 5 yr old
who was fat and round and I was worried that she'd change
shape as she got older/fitter and I'd be on the eternal
saddle hunt every three minutes.

I currently ride three different horses in the SS.

My gelding, Provo, came to us with a sore back and
tended to run hollow. Using the SS, he has not had
a sore back. He did get a loin rub on *one* side earlier
this year, but that turned out to be a chiropractic
issue with his hip. Once that was fixed, the rub
went away.

Youngster Zini has needed a crupper to stop the
saddle going up her neck on steep downhills, but
hasn't suffered any back soreness.

Mouse (the original fat, round 5 yr old) is quite
short-backed and I'll discuss at the end of this post
what I've ended up doing with her, but in terms of
soreness, the SS worked for her too, we have just
had other issues.

I always use a breast collar, and use a crupper with
Zini and Mouse (Provo never needed one with the SS,
even on the steepest of hills).

The key to SSs seems to be making sure you use a
pad that works for you and distributes the weight
well. I've used both Skito and Toklat Woolback pads
with equalizer foam inserts and had good results.
For my heavy-weight husband (who has admittedly
never gone further than 20 miles) the Toklat worked
better because it has a layer of wool fleece on both
top and bottom, so makes it thicker. With this pad,
he gets a nice wide dry spot along his horse's spine.

Jonni wrote:

I did not like the feel and fit of a Sport Saddle I did a quick ride
in for MY fit. But others just LOVE them.

The main trouble with SS is that they are available
in so many variations and your personal taste can
change over time, as well as depending on what type
of riding you're doing/ which horse you're riding.

In the past six years I've had:

SS endurance 14.5" (low pommel/cantle, stirrups back 1/2")

Liked it, so bought one for my husband:

SS schooling & training 15.5" (high pommel/cantle, stirrups standard)

I was just starting distance riding at the time and very
wimpy and got tired doing rides (understatement - I'd finish
each 50 completely wiped out), so very soon started riding in
husband's saddle because I liked the extra security of the
high pommel/cantle for when I was pooped-out (visions of
being yanked over the horse's head at water stops from being
pathetic <g>), so I sold my lower pommel/cantle endurance model
and bought myself my own:

SS schooling & training 15" (high pommel/cantle, stirrups back 1/2")

(note, to begin with, switching to the stirrups further back
felt like it was torquing my knees, but after a couple of
rides I didn't notice it any more).

After a year or so, my husband decided his S&T saddle was a
bit small for him (the higher pommel/cantle arrangement makes
the seat smaller), so we sold it to a friend. The friend
really liked it, but it didn't work for her high-spined/
tent-shaped paso fino, but does work fine on her arab. We
bought my husband a:

SS endurance 15.5" (low pommel/cantle, stirrups back 1")

He liked the stirrups back that far for posting, but has
had quite a lot of problems being pulled over Zini's
head - Zini who's favorite game is to pull you out of
the saddle to get her own way <g>. I'm guessing for
him, stirrups back 1" is a little too much and he'd do
better with only 1/2" back.

Early this spring, I was getting ready for Tevis and Provo
was getting fitter and fitter and consequently less and less
well behaved <g>. Unsubtle downward transitions and jigging
took their toll and after one 50 of being repeatedly slammed
into the high pommel (carpet burns on delicate areas), I
decided to start riding in my husband's (lower pommel) saddle.

Before then, I'd ridden Mouse in it once during a *fast*
Open NATRC ride and the stirrups-back arrangement about
killed my stomach muscles in the effort of trying to balance
in it (prior to that ride, I had hardly ridden in this saddle
at all). I was sore at the end of that ride, believe me. However,
once I started riding in it regularly, I had no problems at all
and did several 50s in it on three different horses (two loaners)
with no ill-effects.

(Oh, we also bought a:

SS Circle Y barrel racer (high pommel/cantle, horn, chair seat)

This was a used saddle we bought fairly cheaply with the idea
that it could never hurt to have a spare. I've not ridden more
than a few minutes in. In terms of security, it would be great
for someone who only rides occasionally - in our case, I thought
of non-riding visitors. 'Course none of our horses are trust-
worthy enough to put someone like that on them, but still <G>)


Jonni:

Again, see if you can
borrow a saddle to try, before putting out the money...in the long
run, it will save you money.

Definitely good advice.

Although in terms of saving money, the resale on BM SS is
usually good enough that you don't end up losing much money
swapping from one saddle to the next.

(BTW, Donna with Pippi? Was it you who emailed me earlier
this year about trying out my saddle at Cool? Sorry - I
lost your email. If you're still interested, drop me a
note!).


What happened with short-backed Mouse
-------------------------------------

Both Provo and Zini work beautifully in the SS, but Mouse
has always looked like a fat girl stuffed into a party
dress in most saddles.

She's short-backed, is an "easy-keeper" (read "big belly"),
has a very round barrel, well-sprung ribs, and a forward
heart-girth which tends to dictate where the cinch lies
and pull saddles onto her withers and up her neck.

I crupper-trained her (that was a chore) and re-rigged
the SS using front and back cinch rings into a sort of
center-fire V, to get the cinch further back and had
quite good results.

Before she pulled a suspensory in 2002, I did 2 x 30 mile
AERC rides, a two-day Open NATRC 50 miler (Silver Spurs),
a one-day Open NATRC (Folsom Lake), followed by an AERC 50.
She never had any back trouble during this time.

What she *did* develop, however, was a loin rub around the
time of the Silver Spurs NATRC ride (in September. Her first
ride that year was April).

Loin rubs seem to be one of the most common complaints about
SSs. It seems that changing coats are the "problem times"
(i.e. spring and fall). Some people report balding over the
loins during this time. Sometimes it's just cosmetic and
doesn't cause problems, sometimes the horse gets sore.

In Mouse's case, I didn't even realise it was happening
(short people can't see down onto their horse's back, so
don't see the thinning hair) until vet-in at Silver Spurs
when the vet noted it.

We did the two-day ride and by the end, she had two small
raised tender areas on her loins. I felt awful about it. I'd
never had the problem before - but I'd also never ridden her
that intensively prior to that year.

Folsom Lake was coming up a few weeks later, and I got to
looking at saddles. I notice that my husband's endurance
model - just by fluke of how it was made - was more "peaked"
in the loin area, which would reduce some of the pressure.
So I decided to ride in that saddle for Folsom Lake. I put
the rigging back to just the front cinch ring (and did end
up with some armpit chafing, but that could also be from
sponging her with a sandy sponge from the lake <sigh>).
I loosened off the crupper. And I put ShowSheen on her
loin area.

She finished the ride with no problems at all in the loin
area. A month or so later, back in my S&T saddle, she did
her first 50 with no problems (except for the pulled
suspensory, but that's another story).

Fast-forward to this year. She's done her rehab and we're
starting to ride again. Thinking about her loin rub and her
tendency to look "stuffed" in the SS, and thinking about
how I like my husband's saddle with its lower pommel, and
wondering if maybe should sell my higher pommel S&T and get
my own low pommel saddle, I started looking at Torsion saddles
which measure about 6" shorter, front to back.

Of course, I was naturally suspicious of something new.
I *knew* SSs work, in terms of back-muscles and weight
distribution, but wasn't sure about the Torsion. $1200
was a lot of money to switch over to a different type
of saddle on a whim.

Then the "Barefoot Treeless" (BF) saddle appeared on the market.
As best I can tell, it's a very close-cousin to the Torsion,
but has the advantage of being $600. I ordered a demo and
have been riding in this saddle for my last five rides.

I've probably ridden Zini about 25 miles in it, and Mouse
a couple of hours. Obviously not conclusive long-distance,
but so far I've not seen anything that will cause problems
and I've liked it well enough that I'm going to buy it.

Pros:
It is indeed much shorter, front to back, than the SS,
which is *really* nice. It stays away from the rubbing-
loin area.

It's very light-weight (although I haven't had a chance
to attach the fifteen tons of saddle bags onto it yet).

As advertised, it does feel "light as a feather" to ride
in (don't ask me why).

Two-pointing is very, very easy in it, with the stirrups
placed right under you.

I've been using the endurance fenders that came with it
and haven't used any lower leg protection and have had
virtually no chafing, even though the fenders are brand
new.

The footprint of the saddle is such that I can use my SS-
shaped Skito/Toklat pads with it, so I haven't had to buy
a new pad (they sent an Equipedic with it).

The hard pommel and cantle fibreglass blocks are removable,
and they are about to start selling wide and narrow pommel
blocks for different shaped horses. You could even replace
the blocks with wool or similar if you wanted to. In the
case of my horses however, the standard blocks seem fine.

Cons:
It has less D-rings for attaching said saddle bags.

The stirrups have much more swing to them than I'm used to
with the SS (note, this is probably a pro for most people),
so I'm having problems getting myself balanced trotting up
and down hills.

It is rigged with english billets and I don't have any
english girths, so I'll have to buy one/some.

The rigging is very low on the horse's sides compared to
an english saddle, so a "normal length" girth may be too
long (I've ended up borrowing a 28" girth and that is still
nearly on the top holes).

Other comments:
I am able to mount from the ground with this saddle.
It *seems* like it rolls around less than the SS, but
I've not mounted *that* often.

The first time I rode in the saddle (2+ hours), I was
able to put a Port Lewis Impression Pad under my saddle
+ pads at the end of the ride and see what it looked like
after 15 minutes of walking and a bit of trotting. The
result was a perfect fit - no pressure points. This is
how Zini is with the SS as well.

I have been getting a nice even sweat pattern from it.

I hoped that using this saddle would miraculously make
Mouse more able to go downhill comfortably (she's currently
going through a reluctant phase) as I thought perhaps the
SS was pinching her withers, but it doesn't seem to have
cured her so I'll have to look elsewhere to figure that
problem out. That said, when she has warmed up sufficiently
to go downhill without acting like Barbie in heels, it does
seem like she moves freer. Could be my imagination.

On Mouse (well-developed withers) I've been more comfortable
with the balance point. With Zini (who's young and tends to
speed up/slow down/swerve/stop without warning <g>) I'm having
more trouble.

Because the BF is so much shorter and I'm used to the SS
placement, I'm having a hard time positioning the BF where
I want it.

With Zini, I've experimented with putting the saddle further
up her withers to tip the front up, but this caused me to sit
on the back of the saddle too much. However, it didn't make
any difference to Zini, so I'm guessing this saddle offers
lots of shoulder room.

I've also tried using some foam shoulder shims in my pad
which worked better and I think I'll go with them in the
future.

Finally, it has also illustrated to me that much of
my balance has been coming from the added crutch of high
pommel to brace against and lack of swing in the stirrups
on the SS. :)

Anyway, all in all, I have liked my SS (and will probably
continue to use that on Zini, at least until she settles
down more), but think that the BF is going to work better
for Mouse. Obviously, it's early days, but I'm confident
with what I've seen so far.

Phew that got long. Hope it helped.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Lucy Chaplin Trumbull
elsietee AT foothill DOT net
Repotted english person in the Sierra foothills, California
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*

Hey Karen

Nice idea on putting this group together.

I'm going to post a long thing I recently sent to the CTR list about
my experience with BM Sportsaddles. Just have to dig it out, stand by.

Also, I recently bought a Barefoot Cheyenne (BF) saddle and although
I'm pretty happy with it, it's taking some tweaking (as with the BM
SS) and I'm still at the experimental "Hmm, what if I try *this*..."
stage.

Lucy
2 BM SSs
1 BF Cheyenne
3 horses :)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Lucy Chaplin Trumbull
elsietee AT foothill DOT net
Repotted english person in the Sierra foothills, California
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*

> Jena, some great info, thanks.....
>
> Questions I have from reading your post, the website and looking at
> the photos are:
>
>>1.  How does pommel fit down into front of saddle?  Does it look
like something that might cause pressure points?

The pommels is screwed through the leather in the front of the
saddle.  I can not tell if the billets attach to this area or not.
If they do, I could see how it could pull the front of the saddle
down on the withers.  However, on my horse the front billet seems to
be about a half of a hole looser than the back.  Maybe it is
designed that way to prevent pressure?

>>3. Not sure if I like design of stirrups hung over middle of
saddle; is there any potential to bear down in that area?  Having
one of these and looking at it taking it apart....what do you think?

I have read that people do not like this part of the design on the
Torsions.  I don't think it would cause pressure, as the leather
patch that hold the stirrups bidges across the panels.  I use Wintec
Webbers that I took apart and used chicago screws to attach them to
the saddle.  I was afraid of a big lump under my leg with regular
leathers.  And if it is a lump to me, it is a lump to the horse.

> I think in treeless saddles, it's a big issue on how to "suspend"
stirrups from saddle while distributing weight.
>
> My understanding of the sport saddles is that they have rigging
inside the saddle that splits into a "Y", that attatches to both
pommel and saddle.  This would be where the pressure would
go......then somewhat aleviated by riders weight in seat.....
>
> ideas?
> Karen

I agree that the way stirrups are hung in any saddle needs to be
carefully considered.  I am not an engineer, so I do not know what
way is the best.  All of them seem to have potential issues.  I
would think the "Y" hung stirrups could cause pressure on the cantle
and the pommel both if you post or 2-point alot.  This would be
worse if the angles of either of these componants to not match your
horses conformation.

Also, how the BM is rigged depends on the model.  I did not know
this until I researched it.  See info on Lori's Tack:

http://www.loristack.com/riggings.htm

Jena

Jena, some great info, thanks.....

Questions I have from reading your post, the website and looking at
the photos are:

1.  How does pommel fit down into front of saddle?  Does it look like
something
that might cause pressure points?

3. Not sure if I like design of stirrups hung over middle of saddle; is
there any
potential to bear down in that area?  Having one of these and looking at it,
taking
it apart....what do you think?

I think in treeless saddles, it's a big issue on how to "suspend" stirrups
from saddle
while distributing weight.

My understanding of the sport saddles is that they have rigging inside the
saddle that
splits into a "Y", that attatches to both pommel and saddle.  This would be
where the
pressure would go......then somewhat aleviated by riders weight in seat.....

ideas?
Karen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jena" <equus_blue@...>
To: <treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 6:37 PM
Subject: [treelesssaddles] Startrekk saddles




http://www.trekkingsaddles-webshop.com/html/cavaletti-treeless.html

I have never ridden in the Torsion.  To me the cantle and pommel
look low, like the BM endurance.  The Startrekk Comfort (ST-C) has a
higher cantle and pommel.  This helps keep me in  during spooks.
The pommel is high enough to well clear the highest withers and
still leave room for use as a handle when needed. That was a selling
point for me ;-P.  Can't do that with the BM, Torsion, or Mackinder
pommel.  I would wish for knee rolls, but I haven't needed them
yet.  I may have some built into the sheepskin cover I would like to
have made for it.

The panels are held on with velcro and can be moved, removed,
replaced, shimmed, whatever.  The whole underside of the saddle
(panel area) is the fuzzy velcro material.  You can take them off if
you want and velcro on you skito pad if that worked for you.

It has a choice of 2 stirrup positions.  I ride in with my leathers
(modified webbers) on the forward ring.  I have not had a problem
with the flap being too short. I ride in paddock boots and half
chaps.  I used to have a prob with some GP english saddle flaps
interfering with the top of my boots when I rode in tall boots.  I
am 5'7"+ 165 pounds (size 10/12 pants).  Any larger and the seat
would be too small for me.  But there is room to move the cantle
back another .5" to .75", but you would have to have someone (saddle
shop?) put the holes in (3).

The saddle will slip depending on how you mount.  Most treeless will
I suppose.  Some riders are taught to pull themselves into the
saddle using the pommel and cantle.  That will not work with my BM
or the ST-C.  I try to find something to mount from or at least
higher ground to get me up a bit more.  Then use my front hand (I
mount either side) to hold the reins and a handful of mane.  When
mounting I can pull with this hand.  My rear hand rests/stabilizes
the seat of the saddle.  The rest is push from my legs.  I find that
with practice my treeless saddles slipped about the same as my
english saddles.

There are a bunch of pictures of the model saddle I have (comfort)
here:

http://www.trekkingsaddles-webshop.com/html/info-startrekk-en.html
http://www.trekkingsaddles-webshop.com/html/test-
startrekk_comfort_aline.html

I will be using this saddle in the upcoming AERC endurance ride in
Bonita, CA Nov 28th.  If you are there you are welcome to come check
it out.

Jena









Yahoo! Groups Links

I did not find a US distributor.  Simone at the trekking website was
very helpful and emailed in english.  I paid via PayPal.

Current cost (Euro to Dollar) would be around $1300.  But it
fluctuates.  I think I paid $1230 in Sept.

Jena

--- In treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com, Raven <iceponygoddess@g...>
wrote:
> > http://www.trekkingsaddles-webshop.com/html/cavaletti-
treeless.html
>
> How much are these saddles? And are they being sold in the USA?
Thanks, Raven

> http://www.trekkingsaddles-webshop.com/html/cavaletti-treeless.html

How much are these saddles? And are they being sold in the USA? Thanks, Raven

> www.ialha.org/new/features/articles/New_Technology.php - 9k - Nov 22, 2004

very interesting! raven

http://www.trekkingsaddles-webshop.com/html/cavaletti-treeless.html

I have never ridden in the Torsion.  To me the cantle and pommel
look low, like the BM endurance.  The Startrekk Comfort (ST-C) has a
higher cantle and pommel.  This helps keep me in  during spooks.
The pommel is high enough to well clear the highest withers and
still leave room for use as a handle when needed. That was a selling
point for me ;-P.  Can't do that with the BM, Torsion, or Mackinder
pommel.  I would wish for knee rolls, but I haven't needed them
yet.  I may have some built into the sheepskin cover I would like to
have made for it.

The panels are held on with velcro and can be moved, removed,
replaced, shimmed, whatever.  The whole underside of the saddle
(panel area) is the fuzzy velcro material.  You can take them off if
you want and velcro on you skito pad if that worked for you.

It has a choice of 2 stirrup positions.  I ride in with my leathers
(modified webbers) on the forward ring.  I have not had a problem
with the flap being too short. I ride in paddock boots and half
chaps.  I used to have a prob with some GP english saddle flaps
interfering with the top of my boots when I rode in tall boots.  I
am 5'7"+ 165 pounds (size 10/12 pants).  Any larger and the seat
would be too small for me.  But there is room to move the cantle
back another .5" to .75", but you would have to have someone (saddle
shop?) put the holes in (3).

The saddle will slip depending on how you mount.  Most treeless will
I suppose.  Some riders are taught to pull themselves into the
saddle using the pommel and cantle.  That will not work with my BM
or the ST-C.  I try to find something to mount from or at least
higher ground to get me up a bit more.  Then use my front hand (I
mount either side) to hold the reins and a handful of mane.  When
mounting I can pull with this hand.  My rear hand rests/stabilizes
the seat of the saddle.  The rest is push from my legs.  I find that
with practice my treeless saddles slipped about the same as my
english saddles.

There are a bunch of pictures of the model saddle I have (comfort)
here:

http://www.trekkingsaddles-webshop.com/html/info-startrekk-en.html
http://www.trekkingsaddles-webshop.com/html/test-
startrekk_comfort_aline.html

I will be using this saddle in the upcoming AERC endurance ride in
Bonita, CA Nov 28th.  If you are there you are welcome to come check
it out.

Jena

> BM endurance - do not feel sucure in this saddle.  The slick leather
> on a round barreled horse, combined with the low pommel/cantle, and
> limited leg movement due to stirrup position make for an
> easy "unplanned" dismount

Wear full seat breeches and use a sheepskin cover, really helps. Raven

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jena" <equus_blue@...>
BM endurance - do not feel sucure in this saddle.  The slick leather
on a round barreled horse, combined with the low pommel/cantle, and
limited leg movement due to stirrup position make for an
easy "unplanned" dismount.  My husband, who rides a more narrow
horse (Paso/TWH), and has better reflexes does just fine in it.

*interesting; I also do not like the plain smooth endurance.  I have
sheepskin or fleece overs over all my saddles for more comfort and
grippiness.  I also have one endurance model with the higher cantle,
which I like.

BM trail - great training saddle! Once I bought this my "greenie"
and I no longer parted ways unexpectedly.  It did, however, really
teach me some bad riding position habits that I am now working
through in my new saddle (Startrekk Comfort)

*Some years ago I ordered a Training and Schooling as I liked the
deeper pommel and cantle.  However, I did have the rigging and stirrup
position changed to be pretty far back; so that my leg was under me.
This made a big difference.  I agree, probably in the trail model, the
stirrups are too far forward.

Mackinder Endurance - sold it.  I liked this saddle better than the
BM endurance.  Great stirrup position, comfortable, well made.  It
is not treeless, but instead has a flexible foam tree.  My horses
conformation tended to cause it to ride croocked and downhill.

*Interesting.  I will have to find their link.  What did it cost approx?

Startrekk Comfort (http://www.trekkingsaddles-
webshop.com/html/cavaletti-treeless.html) - made by german saddle
company Drueber & partner.  This is my current saddle and am very
happy with it.  Comes completely apart, pommel, cantle, panels,
seat, etc, so it is a great candidate for customizing it any way you
want.  Pommel comes in 3 widths.

*Can you tell us more about this?  To me, it resembles the Torsion in
shape...can you make the cantle higher or anything?  I am also wondering
if the flap would be long enough for my very long leg.  Also....does it
clear the spine and withers?
Karen

Jena & Temba
Poway, CA









Yahoo! Groups Links

----- Original Message -----
From: "alanna_sommer" <trlridn4fun@...>
   After doing a lot of research I decided to order a custom BM
endurance shaped high in the withers.I have a lot of concern about
treeless, worried about weight distribution and also if it will roll
when mounting (seem to do at least one judged mount per ride!).

*Alanna, I have known some heavyweight riders that have had very
good luck with sport saddles.  I also had an Anglo Arab with those
high withers and a dip behind...what worked and made the saddle fit
fine was one of the skito pads with the top shim....it shimmed out that
area just fine.
Karen





Yahoo! Groups Links

Hello Rebecca and all, I haven't yet put together an invite list, or list of
vendors
I wanted to say though you are more than welcome to write up some info on
your saddle, your theory behind it, etc....I do believe people are very
interested....
Anyway, you definatly are on my list!
Karen
----- Original Message -----
From: "softride97502" <softride@...>
To: <treelesssaddles@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 5:12 PM
Subject: [treelesssaddles] it's a nice idea!




just thought i would listen in on what's happening.

rebecca--underwood enterprizes--1-541-826-9668--oregon
home of the rebecca treeless saddles for horses, mules, and donkeys
and now a turtle rescue!!!!!!!!     :o))))

http://www.rebeccatreelesssaddles.com








Yahoo! Groups Links

just thought i would listen in on what's happening.

rebecca--underwood enterprizes--1-541-826-9668--oregon
home of the rebecca treeless saddles for horses, mules, and donkeys
and now a turtle rescue!!!!!!!!     :o))))

http://www.rebeccatreelesssaddles.com

>also if it will roll  when mounting (seem to do at least one judged
mount per ride!)

Think about changing over to a Center Fire Rigging sold by Corry at Horse Dacor.

I am very curious to see what gets discussed here, I ride CTR in
Novice Heavyweight class on a 15 h, 1100 lb. AQHA gelding. We started
having white hairs on his left withers over this last season. I was
riding in an Orthoflex Express Lite, which I love, but refuse to use
if it hurts my horse. Red also has a wide back and high narrow
withers, and a dip in his back as it joins his withers. Makes him a
very tough fit.
   After doing a lot of research I decided to order a custom BM
endurance shaped high in the withers.I have a lot of concern about
treeless, worried about weight distribution and also if it will roll
when mounting (seem to do at least one judged mount per ride!).
   I have to say that the reason I chose the BM was because I had a
lot of testimonials from heavy weight distance riders saying it
worked for them. That may just be because the BM's have been around
longer, but I don't have the money to keep buying saddles...
Alanna Sommer (in North Texas)

Karen and Group,

What a great idea for a group!  I enjoy my treeless saddles
enormously.  I have/had:

BM endurance - do not feel sucure in this saddle.  The slick leather
on a round barreled horse, combined with the low pommel/cantle, and
limited leg movement due to stirrup position make for an
easy "unplanned" dismount.  My husband, who rides a more narrow
horse (Paso/TWH), and has better reflexes does just fine in it.

BM trail - great training saddle! Once I bought this my "greenie"
and I no longer parted ways unexpectedly.  It did, however, really
teach me some bad riding position habits that I am now working
through in my new saddle (Startrekk Comfort)

Mackinder Endurance - sold it.  I liked this saddle better than the
BM endurance.  Great stirrup position, comfortable, well made.  It
is not treeless, but instead has a flexible foam tree.  My horses
conformation tended to cause it to ride croocked and downhill.

Startrekk Comfort (http://www.trekkingsaddles-
webshop.com/html/cavaletti-treeless.html) - made by german saddle
company Drueber & partner.  This is my current saddle and am very
happy with it.  Comes completely apart, pommel, cantle, panels,
seat, etc, so it is a great candidate for customizing it any way you
want.  Pommel comes in 3 widths.

Jena & Temba
Poway, CA

Hello folks,

After spending better part of a week looking over internet sites for
treeless saddle information, I decided there must be a yahoo group
just for treeless saddles....nope.  There is one for sport saddles,
of which I am a member, and one for Ansur treeless saddles....but no
general category for treeless saddle discussions, so I decided to try
to take a stab at starting one. Forgive me if I am clumsy at this.
I do hope to start a file on available treeless saddles, their
features and website links.

For now, I would love to hear what treeless saddles folks are using
and their feelings about them.  What kind of riding and any problems.
Do they seem to fit all size horses? Do they slip sideways when
mounting?  Do they cause any pressure points or white hairs?  Are
there adjustable features: rigging, stirrup position, knee roll
position?  What accessories work with these saddles, i.e. saddle pad,
cinches or girths, saddle packs?

Treeless saddles off the top of my head I have run across are:

Bob Marshall Sport Saddle Inc (U.S.)
Circle Y Bob Marshall Sport Saddle (U.S.)
Ansur (U.S.)
Nickers Saddlery Harmony Saddle (Canada)
Rebecca Underwood Treeless (U.S.)
Torsion (Italy)
Tuend, now made in NZ under ?
Action freeform (Italy)
Barefoot Cheyene (Germany)
Dartmour treefree (U.K)
Heather Moffett SBS Flexion (U.K)

To start, I have ridden Bob Marshall Sport saddles for over 10 years.
I have two endurance models, one Training and Schooling, and one
Circle Y Western model.  I have two models with stirrups set back
about 2", that gives more of a dressage position.  I use skito pads,
neoprene cinches and flexride stirrups.  I ride trail, distance,
horse camp and have done some endurance.

I have had extremely good luck with these saddles until recently; I
have discovered the pommels are too narrow for my Arab/paint mare. I
am trying to modify one endurance model by cutting back the front in
a slit to relieve wither pressure. I am also looking into other
treeless saddles........

How is that for a start?
Karen Sullivan
greymare56@...