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translatinghaiku · Translating Haiku, Studying Meanings

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  • Members: 56
  • Category: Haiku
  • Founded: Apr 14, 2006
  • Language: English
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Re: mulberries   Message List  
Reply Message #3356 of 3575 |
Re: mulberries

Dear Gabi,

Thanks for the info. I'd like to try some mulberry wine! *hiccup*

Here is my wordy version of what Basho may have meant:

mulberries in fruit--
for a flowerless butterfly,
"hermit's sake"


I swear that I wrote this before I found an essay online by Pei Pei Qiu, who has
written the interesting book, "Basho and the Dao." Unfortunately, this haiku
isn't discussed in that book, but she does discuss it in an online PDF-format
essay:

"Inventing the New Through the Old: The Essence of 'Haikai' and the 'Zhuangzi'
", by Pei Pei Qiu, Asian Studies, Vassar College; in the journal, "Early Modern
Japan," Vol. IX, no. 1, Spring, 2001.

In the essay, Qiu translates the haiku as:

The mulberries--
Without flowers, they are the butterfly's
Hermit wine.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=yosute-zake&aq=&aqi=&\
aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=703b5abce7f02c64&biw=869&bih=563


(in case this link doesn't work, I found the essay by googling "yosute-zake")

The discussion of this haiku (and the translation) are on pp. 15 & 16 of the
essay. Qiu agrees with Mariko-san that this haiku alludes to the butterfly in
Zhuang Zhou's dream. But she says that the 'haikai' of the poem is in making the
"novel" combination of butterfly with mulberries.

Qiu points out that:

"The image 'mulberries' has long been used in Chinese poetry to signify rustic
country life. Since the foremost Chinese recluse poet Tao Qian [T'ao Ch'ien or
Tao Yuanming] (365-427) uses the image in his famous poem "Returning to Gardens
and Fields to Dwell" (Gui yuantian ju'), the mulberry tree has been used as a
typical image to signify the life and taste of a recluse. ... In 'waka'
tradition, too, the image is always associated with pastoral scenes. Since
Basho's works often make direct quotations from Tao Qian's poetry, his depiction
of the mulberries as the hermit wine here is apparently a careful choice that
evokes the association between his immediate experience of the hut life and the
long recluse tradition."

And Qiu points out that 'yasutezake' is not a commonly used word.

I would love to know what Oseko says about this haiku.

Larry

P.S. "On Returning to Gardens and Fields to Dwell" apparently has five sections.
Here is the couplet that first mentions mulberry trees, from section 1:

Dogs bark somewhere in deep lanes,
Cocks crow atop the mulberry trees.

Tr. Wu-chi Liu, from the book "Sunflower Splendor: Three Thousand Years of
Chinese Poetry."










Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:55 am

lbolenyc
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Message #3356 of 3575 |
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Dear Gabi, It is obvious that this haiku has the butterfly dream of the ancient Chinese allegory in its background. Reichhold's comments sound OK. In other...
maki ars
ars_maki Offline Send Email
Jun 10, 2011
8:23 am

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, dear Mariko san! kuwa no mi ya hana naki choo no yosute-zake mulberries without blossoms - they are the wine for a hermit...
Greve Gabi
gabigreve2000 Offline Send Email
Jun 10, 2011
8:29 am

Dear Gabi, I love your rendition; it sounds better than Reichhold's. However, the ontological problem still remains; the wine could be both for a hermit...
maki ars
ars_maki Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2011
3:18 am

Thanks a lot, Mariko san we have a mulberry tree in the garden, and a lot of butterflies hanging around, together with the bees and others ... constand humming...
Greve Gabi
gabigreve2000 Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2011
3:37 am

Dear Gabi, You are lucky to have a mulberry tree in your garden! You might as well imagine to be a hermit, seeing the mulberry tree with those fluttering...
maki ars
ars_maki Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2011
3:46 am

Hi Mariko, we are indeed hermits, with no neighbours apart from inoshishi wild boars and pheasants ... My home is the Paradise Hermitage (Gokuraku an). Every...
Greve Gabi
gabigreve2000 Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2011
4:03 am

Dear Gabi, Yes, your version makes sense. I think where Reichhold may have gone wrong in her translation is in thinking that butteflies ONLY sip nectar from...
lbolenyc Offline Send Email Jun 11, 2011
5:25 am

Hi Larry I found some mulberry wine in Japanese, read only kuwazake , kuwashu chinshu, special sake, is another word, but I could not find it combined with...
Greve Gabi
gabigreve2000 Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2011
5:51 am

Dear Gabi, Thanks for the info. I'd like to try some mulberry wine! *hiccup* Here is my wordy version of what Basho may have meant: mulberries in fruit-- for a...
lbolenyc Offline Send Email Jun 11, 2011
9:55 am

Dear Larry, I've done some running on the word "Sochinsyu" as well and found out that there is no kanji character for it. But weird thing is, how does this...
Hjh halela bt. hj a. ...
kudaka2001 Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2011
4:58 am

Dear Kudaka san, I guess these are two words mixed into one sooshu 桑酒 (kuwa sake) and "special type sake" like we have in chinmi chinshuu 珍酒 I also...
Greve Gabi
gabigreve2000 Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2011
5:04 am

I vote for the portmanteau suggested by Gabi. Mariko ... Dear Kudaka san, I guess these are two words mixed into one sooshu 桑酒 (kuwa sake) and "special...
maki ars
ars_maki Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2011
6:55 am
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