Gabi san and Norman san.
This is my little observation.

In Japanese I will say as follows,
¤Î¤é¤ê¤¯¤é¤ê¤·¤Æ¤¤¤ëÆâ¤Ë¡¢²Ú¤ä¤«¤ÊÅԤˤ⡢¤â¤¦½©É÷¤¬¿á¤¤¤Æ¤­¤¿¡£
In English,
while I have spent idle live
in the blossom capital
autumn window begin to blow.

1816 Issa stayed in Edo not in Kyoto. So I think²Ö¤ÎÅÔ is not necessary to
be
Kyoto.
1814 he marriaged , come to Edo, return at year end.
1815 he repeated same pattern [go and back, home village and Edo]
1816 he come to Edo, passed at¡¡there¡¡over the year.
At this time he had contradictional desire between staying in Home with new
wife and
being active in haiku in Edo.
norari kurari [ original norakura] is his feeling of self-mockery.

sakuo renku
¿®Ç»¤ÎµÆ¤ÎÎø¤·¤«¤ê¤±¤ê
shinano no kiku no koisi karikeri

a chrysanthemum in Shinano
I am longing for you


sakuo.

PS; Kiku [chrysanthemum] is the name of Issa's first wife.




-----Original Message-----
From: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com [mailto:translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.
com] On Behalf Of Norman Darlington
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:49 PM
To: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Translating Haiku] Re: Issa : hana no miyako, Kyoto

--- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:translatinghaiku%40yahoogroups.com> , "Greve Gabi"
<gokurakuatworldkigo@...> wrote:
>
> loafing around
> in Kyoto...
> autumn wind
>
> norakura ya hana no miyako mo aki no kaze
>
> ¤Î¤é¤¯¤é¤ä²Ö¤ÎÅԤ⽩¤ÎÉ÷
>
> by Issa, 1816
>
> "The capital" (miyako) was the city of Kyoto in Issa's day.
>
> http://cat.xula.edu/issa/ <http://cat.xula.edu/issa/>
>
> ...................................................
>
> hana no miyako MO, I wonder if the simple translation KYOTO conveys
> the real meaning of what Issa is heading at.
>
> something like ...
>
> wandering around, even in Kyoto, the capital of the Cherry Blossom
> viewing, the autumn wind is now blowing ...
>
> That should go into one English-language haiku ? rather difficult, I
> agree. The combination of HANA and AKI is great !
>
> Gabi
>

Hi. A great haiku, and I agree about the strength of the combination
of such disparate elements. A couple of things strike me.

First I can see no advantage in translating 'hana no miyako' as Kyoto,
rather than 'blossom capital' or somesuch to convey more of the sense
of the original.

Second (if I understand correctly), the translation shifts the
position of the cut, which seems an unnecessary interference, to
between the capital and the wind, whereas the original has it after
loafing.

I suppose that norakura/loafing by default suggests first person, so
that we should imagine the poet 'hanging out', but isn't there a sense
in which the autumn wind is the one idling - for what has that autumn
wind to do productively in such a place as the blossom capital?!

hanging about --
even in the blossom capital
the autumn wind

Best wishes
Norman