Ok then, for the sake of peace, over and out.



From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of M. Sufilight
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:17 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question





Dear Govert and friends

My views are:

Let us have a heart. I wrote my latest post seeking to be of service not only to
you but also to other readers.
You did not answer my questions in my previous posts.
I think I have written, what is needed here and in my previous posts on
Bibractes and Autun.
I do not see any need to repeat myself again. One is free to read texts to ones
liking and choosing - or seek an objective stance on the matter, what ever that
might be.

I certainly have agreed upon that the article by Blavatsky can be read like you
do Govert - but also that it can be read differently - taking into account that
it is a posthumous published article written by Blavatsky. And that is merely
the peaceful view I hold. - But present day science is not infallible like a
pope - and - neither are theosophical seekers who still have to admit that they
are ignorant. So maybe the actual story on Bibracte and Autun is a bit different
from what both you, and I, and "exact" science perceive it to be. Drawing final
conclusions based on insufficient information is most often not adviceable.

These are however just my views.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:45 PM
Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Morten,

You’re such a funny fellow. Twice you stated to stop “here,” only to keep
going without adding anything substantial to the discussion.

Even if the two towns overlapped, which they did not, HPB was still wrong to
take over Ragon’s fantasies regarding Bibracte. Period.

From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of M. Sufilight
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:25 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Dear Govert and friends

My views are:

I will stop here. I think we can put this exchange to rest.
I can only recommend, that those interested in the exchange carefully read what
I have written in my previous posts in this thread or these recent threads on
Bibracte and Autun.

The below I merely respond so to clarify what I perceive to be a
misunderstanding - and - so to seek to explain what seemingly is not being
understood...

Govert wrote:
"So if 1) the center of Bibracte and the center of Autun are 20 km apart (NOT a
few kilometers as you keep insisting), and 2) the circumference of Bibracte is 5
km and Autun 6 km, then"......"the absence of sprawling suburbs"

M. Sufilight says:

The question is whether Bibractes and Autun only should be defined as such with
regard to the limits of their town walls or also when including the buildings
found outside the town walls, in the near neighbourhood or just out side the
town walls.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not insisting such a thing, with regard to
the centres of the two towns and the distance between the centres of two towns.
But I am insisting on - fewer kilometers than 20 km (and not only "a few" as you
mention I claim) - with regard to distance between the outer borders of the two
towns, suburbs included outside both of the town walls. (In old times - the town
limits did not only stretch to the town walls.) This distance must certainly
have been less than the about 18-20 km (rather 10 km or so if not rather less)
whehn including suburbs or similar, which also are shown by collecting info from
more than one of the references I have given. The reason for this is simply that
the two towns were actually larger than the town walls themselves and reached
outside the town walls - this is as I see it evidenced by the size of their
populations, Autun especially. (Where, did all the people come from to fill such
a large town as Autun with such a large Theatre? - If they not already where
present nearby when Autun was build?). Try to recheck the maps in my previous
posts on archaeological dicoveries outside the city walls of both towns. And add
the fact that Autun with a theatre having 17-20.000 seat most likely was having
a population of at least 100.000 if not 500.000. This is as I see it a logical
conclusion.
Why -apperently - insist on that people only lived inside the town walls of
Autun and also Bibractes - and not just outside of them or so as well, as it
happened in the old days? Especially when logic tells something else? And when
the below maps clearly more than indicate that there indeed existed suburbs or
similar outside Bibractes town walls.

_______
Try this reference and the maps...from my previous post:

Chronique des recherches sur le Mont Beuvray : 2006-2008
Also here...Sattellite photos using LIDAR images....of Bibracte...Not without
errors, or lack of insight, but hepful in dicovering more about the area.
(See the map at point 61 - research of an area the size of 36 square kilometres.
--- Those who are better at French than I am could translate important passages
of this very interesting article, which as far as I can tell - reveal that
science are by no means finished in concluding - about a whole lot of things on
Bibracte and its chronology. And that the area around Bibracte is not the best
for archaeological excavations due to the environment etc. etc.)
http://rae.revues.org/6502
http://rae.revues.org/6502?file=1 (PDF --- better photos and maps !, report 211
pages. Look at the size-indicators on the maps. So maybe Bibracte was larger
than some expect it to have been?)
(Now each reader can do there own math.)

More precisely this map - measuring 6x6 kilometers taken from the above PDFand
link.
http://rae.revues.org/docannexe/image/6502/img-28.jpg
(Were there no suburbs? I will question that based on this map alone.)

And let us remember that not all the area of Bibractes and Autun has been
excavated. And adding this to the fact that Autun from the beginning had a huge
theatre with 17-20.000 seats - This make me ask: If the people where not already
living nearby Autun before it was build or named in 15 BCE - WHERE DID THEY COME
FROM?

- The town of Autun was clearly a major one already in 15 BCE - or a town with
suburbs nearby was so. A town with a theatre having 17-20.000 seats did
certainly not only have 20.000 inhabitants - it must have had at least 100.000
inhabitants if not much more. And likely more. Where did the inhabitants come
from? Rome? - And 500.000 is certainly not that unlikely a figure for a town
with a theatre of such a size. A town having just 100.000 inhabitants - normally
has a distance from its center to its outer town limits - of something like 6-10
km with suburbs included - if not more. And if the figure is 500.000, we can do
our own math on that. But science does not mention this in any of the papers I
have seen - so I cannot document it more clearly than this. - That is, with the
papers I am able to provide online - for the time being...
(I am myself living in a city with about 250-300.000 inhabitants. - The distance
from the center to the outer limits of the town is about 15-20 km, at some
places. And we have quite a number of buildings with several storeys - something
they did not have in the old days at Autun and Bibractes. I suggest that each
person do their own math on this or similar facts - and compare this with regard
to Autun - and also Bibractes - and consider the actual size of these two towns
based on the references I have provided in the above and in other posts. Some
might disagree - but then I would like them to provide a logical explanation to
the above account and links and maps referred to by me.)

So if we in fact had two towns which outer borders - only were say 6 km apart -
depending on time-periods as well - then Autun or "New Bibractes" were certainly
almost existing at the same place, or very close, geographically speaking. But
as I said in my previous post - they were as I see it never completely
connected. The point being: Yes, the old Bibractes was not Autun, but it was -
almost - located at the same place if the size of both towns - yields a number
of 100.000 if not 500.000 inhabitants with the suburbs included. And Bibractes,
therefore became Autun in many respects - when the inhabitants moved to Autun
from Bibractes.

That was all I intended to say.

But certainly an interesting place and region...Thanks for mentoining it.

__________
Meanwhile almost at the same time and even before that time...at a different
place, but related....

Hero of Alexandria (10-70 AD)
(He invented automatic doors almost at the same time. Also a vending machine.
And (Hero engine) the Aeolipile - a rocket like engine based on steam. (It was
described in the 1st century BC by Vitruvius in his treatise De architectura)
...They were certainly not that dumb in those days as some might
believe...Smile....)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

See also

Ancient Greek technology
(For instance a Liquid-driven escapement (((Greek washstand automaton of the 3rd
century BC working by the earliest known instance of an escapement mechanism[3]
The earliest liquid-driven escapement was described by the Greek engineer Philo
of Byzantium (3rd century BC) in his technical treatise Pneumatics (chapter 31)
as part of a washstand.))) --- (((Excavations at Olympus as well as Athens have
revealed extensive plumbing systems for baths and fountains as well as for
personal use. Dated 500 BCE.))) - also - (((A shower room for female athletes
with plumbed-in water is depicted on an Athenian vase. A whole complex of
shower-baths was also found in a 2nd century BC gymnasium at Pergamum.)))
---(((Greeks continued and sophisticated the construction of water and hydraulic
power systems. An example is the construction by Eupalinos, under a public
contract, of a watering channel for Samos. An early example of the usage of
hydraulic wheel, probably the earliest in Europe, is the Perachora wheel (3rd c.
BC).[2] Notable is the construction of the first hydraulic automata by Ctesibius
(flourished c. 270 BC)[citation needed] and Hero of Alexandria (c. 10–80
AD)[citation needed]. Hero describes a number of working machines using
hydraulic power[citation needed], such as the force pump, which is known from
many Roman sites as having been used for raising water and in fire engines)))
--- And more)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_technology

And people in general think that we live in an advanced age - with technology of
all sorts.
Maybe it indeed is the Kali Yuga.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Morten,

Unfortunately I have to repeat my implied question here: “I don’t know what
you still like to prove with your questions and speculations …”

You seem to grasp at straws, but to what end? Very mystifying.

Anyway, my apologies for not providing the right formula. I meant:

Circumference = 2 x pi x radius. (Not C=2, but C=2pr. The symbols just dropped
out when posted.)

So if 1) the center of Bibracte and the center of Autun are 20 km apart (NOT a
few kilometers as you keep insisting), and 2) the circumference of Bibracte is 5
km and Autun 6 km, then:

Bibracte’s radius is ca. 0.8 km and Autun’s radius is ca. 0.96 km and
therefore the distance between their ramparts, or outer perimeters, is:

20 - (0.8 + 0.96) = 18.24 km.

Autun will then fit 18.24 / (2 x 0.96) = 9.5 times in between, and

Bibracte will fit 18.24 / (2 x 0.8) = 11.4 times in between.

So, given the very hilly terrain around Bibracte, the absence of sprawling
suburbs, and the 18.24 km “as the crow flies” distance between A and B, the
probability that there is no overlap between the two is very, very high. Ergo,
HPB …

From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of M. Sufilight
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:52 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Dear Govert and friends

My views are:

Govert wrote:
"There was no town there before 15 BCE, therefore there was never a name
change."

M. Sufilight says:
Perhaps when we refer to the exact spot dead center of the town Autun. And it is
only a view. When we consider the nearby area, we get a different perspective.
There is no evidence on there there was no large group of peorple livning nearby
Autun in those days before 15 BCE. It seems to be more likely that there did -
when one consider the area of the town and its nearby discoveries (see the
references I gave in my previous posts to you and Jacques) and with a theatre
having 17-20.000 seats. - Just calculate children, servants or slaves, and lower
class people not attending the theatre. One does not build such a huge theatre
just for the fun of it with only for instance 1.000 persons using the seats.
This is not mere speculation it is simple logic and math. Either the persons was
already there, or a huge number of persons got relocated from somewhere. But
where from? Another town? Small villages in the area?

How old was the wooden temple found beneath the Janus Temple in Autun?

Dating various buildings and chronology is uncertain says the scholars. This is
also a fact that need to be given consideration.
This is not speculation but a question and a fact.

One speculation to consider. I wonder whether one will discover more ancient
buildings (perhaps of wood) when one move just one or two kilomters - farther -
in the direction of Bibracte from Autun and excavate there. Would any such
findings at such a spot be called a new town and not related to Autun, or just
named a suburb?

Science and a number of persons still believe that there is something they call
"dead matter." This depsite atoms rotate and planets rotate by some unknown
force.
Today Autun was build 1st century BCE says ordinary science - and there was
nothing there or nearby before that time says science. But science only says so
because they have not found anything to tell them the opposite, and they even
say they are uncertan about dating their findings and uncertain about a whole
lot of things.

Govert wrote:
"I don’t know what you still like to prove with your questions and
speculations, but (as I’m taking a math class now) I have the following
problem for you (and others who’d like to test their college algebra):

If a) Bibracte has a rampart of 5 km long and b) Autun has a rampart of 6 km
long and c) the distance between the center of the two places is about 20 km,
then, my questions are: 1) how many Bibractes and 2) how many Autuns might fit
in between? (The formula to use is C=2)

“The site of Bibracte: By its peak in the 1st century BC, Bibracte encompassed
about 330 acres within a 5 km long rampart.”"

M. Sufilight says:
Yes. But, as far as I can tell, you still leave out (in your references) the
area outside the town-walls - and - what archaeologist have found and not found
so far.
Many scholars agree upon that the old Bibractes became Autun after 58BCE when
Caesar arrived to the area, simply due to relocation of the population in the
area.
Not by mere name-change. The people simply relocated a few kilometers away to
that area - which today is named Autun, and that this likely happended
relatively slowly, because - later - Roman buildings has been found inside
Bibracte, compared to earlier ones beneath them. (See wikipedia on Bibracte.---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibracte )

Chronique des recherches sur le Mont Beuvray : 2006-2008
Also here...Sattellite photos using LIDAR images....of Bibracte...Not without
errors, or lack of insight, but hepful in dicovering more about the area.
(See the map at point 61 - research of an area the size of 36 square kilometres.
--- Those who are better at French than I am could translate important passages
of this very interesting article, which as far as I can tell - reveal that
science are by no means finished in concluding - about a whole lot of things on
Bibracte and its chronology. And that the area around Bibracte is not the best
for archaeological excavations due to the environment etc. etc.)
http://rae.revues.org/6502
http://rae.revues.org/6502?file=1 (PDF --- better photos and maps !, report 211
pages. Look at the size-indicators on the maps. So maybe Bibracte was larger
than some expect it to have been?)
(Now each reader can do there own math.)

From the below local website we have that there was up to 20.000 inhabitants
INSIDE the walls of Bibracte. And this is only an estimate. The number of
inhabitants outside the walls are as far as I know not mentioned by any
archaeologist. Maybe one or two have estimated it, but I have not seen the
number so far. And ordinary science are not aware of the real number, as far as
I can tell.

Bibracte? (Mount Beuvray)
"Mount Beuvray has always been a site subject to substantial human
frequentation. However it was not until the late 2nd century BC that the Aedui,
a Gallic people, decided to establish their capital there and create a real
town, Bibracte. Surrounded by a perimeter wall, at its height it sheltered an
estimated population of 5,000 to 20,000 inhabitants.
Vercingetorix was proclaimed the chief of the Gallic coalition there in 52 BC,
and Julius Caesar completed writing his Commentaries on the Gallic War there.
Bibracte, which was an economic, political and religious centre, gives a
detailed account of the lives of the Gauls during the 2nd and 1st centuries BC.
Year after year, excavations are revealing its fortifications, monumental gates,
public buildings, a central avenue that passed through various quarters, etc.
Bibracte was however abandoned little more than a century after it was founded,
in favour of Augustodunum (Autun), erected 25 kilometres away from Mount
Beuvray, from the late 1st century BC.
Nowadays, Bibracte is a benchmark site for the study of Celtic civilisation. "
http://www.bibracte.fr/page.php?langue=en
<http://www.bibracte.fr/page.php?langue=en
<http://www.bibracte.fr/page.php?langue=en
<http://www.bibracte.fr/page.php?langue=en&rub=02&srub=01&ssrub=04>
&rub=02&srub=01&ssrub=04> &rub=02&srub=01&ssrub=04> &rub=02&srub=01&ssrub=04
(But the above is scientific knowledge. The reality are likely not the same. We
can safely say this, because science keep changing its views about archaeology.
They do not use any exact science. Smile.)

The most likely conclusion is:
The major modern city in the valley is Autun was founded by Caesar as
Augustodunum Aedorum, finally in 15 BCE. And there was a large population in the
area else they would not have been building a theatre with 17-20.000 seats, ---
and the population in the town was likely relocated Celtic inhabitants of
Bibracte town and because of the size of Autun also from elsewhere (WHERE FROM?)
after the Roman conquest. In that sense Bibracte became Autun. The size of both
towns or at least the population connected with them - out-side - the town walls
are likely underestimated (or simply not taken into account due to lack of
knowledge of its size) - as far as I can tell from the above links and maps.
There have been excavated roman buildings inside the walls at Bibracte - on top
of older Celtic ones. Those Roman buildings seem to have been build in haste -
and - do not follow normal structure and planning. And there are indications on
that there has been a forum in Bibracte as well - according to some scholars.
Excavations have not revealed everything yet.
(The following page with satellite images show me, that the to towns Autun and
old Bibracte never were one huge city in itself.
http://www.informatics.org/france/sat.html - But that the towns might have been
larger than most expect them to be - seems likely from the other links I have
provided in the above.)

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Dear Morten,

To answer your question: Autun’s name was originally Augustodunum and was
founded with that name. There was no town there before 15 BCE, therefore there
was never a name change.

I don’t know what you still like to prove with your questions and
speculations, but (as I’m taking a math class now) I have the following
problem for you (and others who’d like to test their college algebra):

If a) Bibracte has a rampart of 5 km long and b) Autun has a rampart of 6 km
long and c) the distance between the center of the two places is about 20 km,
then, my questions are: 1) how many Bibractes and 2) how many Autuns might fit
in between? (The formula to use is C=2)

“The site of Bibracte: By its peak in the 1st century BC, Bibracte encompassed
about 330 acres within a 5 km long rampart.”

(Athena Review: Journal of Archaeology, History, and Exploration at
http://www.athenapub.com/bibmap1.htm)

“l’immense enceinte augustéenne avait à l’origine un développé de 6
kilomètres et était percée de quatre portes monumentales.”

<http://www.autun.com/tourisme/autun_story.php>
http://www.autun.com/tourisme/autun_story.php

Anyway, to drive the point home:

A nice visual of the distance between the two places can be seen on a scale
model at the Bibracte Museum. <http://www.bloganavazquez.com/tag/oppidum-celta/>
http://www.bloganavazquez.com/tag/oppidum-celta/

Drawing of how Augustodunum might have looked like.

<http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-autun-augustodunum-descriptif-de-la-vi\
lle.jpg>
http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-autun-augustodunum-descriptif-de-la-vil\
le.jpg

Map of Bibracte with the grey areas indicating the inhabited areas.

<http://chateauchinon.chez-alice.fr/img/Histoire/Pl_OppidumBibracte.jpg>
http://chateauchinon.chez-alice.fr/img/Histoire/Pl_OppidumBibracte.jpg

Drawing of the Gallo-Roman villas, probably the largest buildings found in
Bibracte.

<
<http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-bibracte-maisons-du-parc-aux-chevaux.j\
pg>
http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-bibracte-maisons-du-parc-aux-chevaux.jp\
g>
<http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-bibracte-maisons-du-parc-aux-chevaux.j\
pg>
http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-bibracte-maisons-du-parc-aux-chevaux.jp\
g

Ergo, HPB ….

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