93

>  The latter one has never been public, though De Arte Magica was published
>in OTO approved publications as recently as ten years ago.

They want to make money... taking those books out of circulation is a long
term investiment, you see?
Of course, only if one believes they are the only OTO &c the book will be
surpressed. Don't count on me, sharks!

93 93/93

.I.

> And suddenly.....there was silence.
>
> Fuck you all.  One by One.

  That could be fun but I hardly know you. ;-)

  Al

!KALLICTI!
                         EPIC!      EPOC!

93!

      At this point, frankly.....I don't care. "If he is  a King..." Blah,
blah, blah. Do the words of a man hurt me? The thoughts? If he gets the jist
of half of what I'm trying to get across then good. And also, David, as
smart as he is, rises to the occasional vinegar, not the sugar.
      Tasteless and unrefined? You bet!
      Thank you for your input Jason. I realize that people who know David
respect and perhaps understand him. Until I know him better, and I hope that
I have that chance, I will hold my opinion and I will listen to yours and
observe his. Thanks again.

93! 93/93

AKINGU/9

>From: "Jason Carpenter>This reply is extremely tasteless and VERY
>unrefined. WHile I agree
>David was being an ass, there are more interesting and subtle ways to
>smack him around. I find that if you jar him as opposed to canning
>him, the repercussions will taste much better.
>
>666
>
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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

93!

>  >Ok, I'll bite
>
> Be nice, Lessie, be nice!

      You haven't been on T93 long, have you? ;-)

>
>  > I don't see that most of the people demanding "all in the clear light"
> are even
>  > really using what's already in the open.
>
> Is that your or my business? I don't think so.

      Is it any of your business what is and isn't my business? Seriously
though, if we're going to discuss issues rather than senselessly snipe at
each other, isn't it sensible that we inquire into the problem? Or is the
problem that some people want to make snide comments and spin out
iconoclastic diatribes without having any particular rationale?

>
>  > Do people really feel like one more ritual revealed is what
> they need to
> attain?
>
> Nothing about getting hold of boring rituals. The point is freedom of
> information and action.

      "Freedom of information" for its own sake is something I can't quite
get my head around. I could post a daily log of the contents of my
refrigerator to this list, but I doubt anyone would find it a noble instance
of information breathing free. You can't really denigrate the rituals, and
then in the same breath suggest that there is some pressing reason that they
should be more widely disseminated -- at least not if you want to present a
coherent position. My position is that if one were only interested in
attainment, the instructions by which one may attain in the A.'.A.'. system
are available, without obligation or expense. If one is interested in the
temporal structure of the A.'.A.'., with its mouth-to-ear lineage,
regulations, opportunities for guidance, rites, etc., then one can become a
Student in that organization and progress through its grades as far as one
dares. Demands & temper tantrums toward the end of getting access to the
latter without actually joining & persevering through the temporal system
are an intimation that one is not interested only in attainment -- since
that is available without participation, though perhaps more difficult. What
else could the motivation for such behavior be? My best guess is that one
wants to feel special, powerful and included -- the emotional tone is one of
envy and resentment -- without having to make commitments or stick to oaths.
What is missed is that the ability to make these commitments and the
willingness to stick to the oaths is what prepares one to genuinely receive
the mysteries. It certainly isn't that the rituals are locked up in a vault,
never to be revealed, or that the maid is lining pie tins with them --
failing other means, there's always the shocking possibility of coming by
them legitimately.

> The formulas contained in those rituals can be of any use in one's real
> life? If so, they are a good tool of attainment.

      The argument isn't over whether the rituals are a good tool of
attainment (at least, not the argument I'm interested in having today).
There are any number of ways of attaining whatever one might wish to attain.
Is the posession of "secret" A.'.A.'. or OTO rituals ever necessary to one's
preferred attainment? I would argue that it isn't, but even if it *is*
necessary, in that case, one should not have any qualms about making the
commitments necessary to obtain them. Either way, snot-nosed whining just
looks immature.

93 93/93
RIKB
http://www.horusset.com/RIKB

At 02:23 PM 5/2/01 -0000, pfftzppkkrrr@... wrote:

>It may be a question of how one uses the 'circuitry.'  It is arguably
>true that, generally speaking, spirituality waxes later in a person's
>life, while sexuality wanes.  Perhaps the increase in spirituality
>later in a person's life is a compensation for the decrease in the
>sexual drive, to keep these neurons active.  If a person were to
>pursue spirituality through sexuality, then there may not be
>the 'normal' waxing and waning aforementioned.

An interesting theory, but I have to argue your arguably true statements.

I think it's more likely that spirituality waxes later in many people's
lives because one's personal sense of mortality heightens as one gets
older. The closer a person gets to death, the more reason they feel to fear
the unknown and the more likely they are to turn to the numinous for answers.

As for sexuality waning in later life, I don't buy that one. Western
culture worships youth and we are conditioned to view old people as asexual
and sexual expression between old people as disgusting. What I have
observed from reading, engaging older people in conversations about sexual
topics and working as a prostitute is that people over age 50 are just as
sexual as (if not more sexual than) they were when they were younger. It's
easy to spot someone with sexual feelings when they're wearing hot pants
and a halter top, but when they've decided that their body isn't so great
for public display anymore, will their sexual desire be as recognizable in
a caftan?

The majority of post-menopausal women I've talked with have told me that
they are raging bundles of lust. Countless men who are unable to obtain or
sustain an erection any longer still visit prostitutes regularly. Mae West
was taking young lads home when she was in her seventies. If you're still
unconvinced, wander around "Suzi's Loveseat"
(http://www.thirdage.com/loveseat/), Sexual Issues for Aging Adults
(http://www.hs.ttu.edu/sexuality&aging/), Sex and Senior Citizens
(http://seniors-site.com/sex/), Guide to Sex and Aging
(http://www.sexhealth.org/sexaging/index.shtml), Sex at Mid-Life and Beyond
(http://www.rx.com/reference/guides/lifelong/FGAC05.jhtml;$sessionid$0WR02JQ
AAAAFICQFAFUCFEQKAUAWMIV0), Senior Sex: Keeping It Lively in the Twilight
Years (http://www.rx.com/magazine/senior/20000915.jhtml), Sexuality in
Older Adults (http://www.agepage.com/sex.htm)

...... You may be very surprised at what you discover. Quoting from "Sex
and Mid-Life and Beyond":

"At Duke University, ongoing research into sexual activity among older
Americans finds that 80 percent of men in their late 60s continue to be
interested in sex. At 78 or older, one in four men continues to be sexually

active. Women, too, retain their sexual abilities and interests throughout
life. In a large national study of older adults, 80 percent of women
reported that sex feels as good as, or better than, when they were younger.
In fact, decreased sexual activity in older women is more likely to be the
result of circumstances--the lack of a partner, for example--than because
of a lack of interest."

(This suggests a ready market for all those guys who write to me, asking
how to get a job as a heterosexual escort. hmmm.........)

Anyway, we're beginning to stray off topic with this, but I couldn't let
the stereotype of seniors as asexual go unchallenged.

I think that an explanation for why intense spirituality so often goes
hand-in-hand with celibacy in a great number of the major world religions
is still a bit out of reach. I can see where it very well might be related
to neurology, considering other evidence I've read....but that still
doesn't explain why other religions (or even other denominations of the
same religion as when comparing the Aghora Yogi with the Raja Yogi) unite
sexuality and spirituality.

Agape,
Sparrow

--
http://www.magdalenemeretrix.com

"True ease in writing comes from art not chance,
as those move easiest who have learned to dance."
                      -- Alexander Pope 1688-1784

93
i have long thought that idea of fate seems to make the most sense.  it
follows cause and effect logic, and it seems that were not fate guiding the
destiny of the world, there would have been a nuclear war and there would be
little left. (i also like the idea cause you can't make mistakes)  The Book
of the Law mentions the idea of fate in "Fear neither men nor fates."
related to this is the interesting idea of nietchze's that time repeates it
self over and over.  although i don't particularly like this idea for i
would like to imagine there is a new universe composed at the end of each.
also i'm not sure if i'm sending this right cause last time i got John
Stanton instead of mirus93 show up.
93
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

"     This reads to me like a blatant parody, but if it's true, it's only
more standard pseudoscience in biological psychiatry. The logic runs
something like this:

Dr. Blicot thinks religious people are mad.
Dr. Blicot finds characteristic brain states and chemical activity
associated with relgious thought.
Dr. Blicot claims to have discovered the "etiology" of a "mental illness."

      If you're not seeing the causal connection here either, perhaps we both



Very relevant statments, I quite agree, however for this article I'm guessing
"parody". There is no journal called "British Psychiatry", the Journal of the
Royal College of Psychiatrists (which is the British psychiatric body, not
what is referenced in the article, which also doesn't exist) is "The British
Journal of Psychiatry.  Search engines returned nothing for a "Dr. Emil
Blicot" or "Lucerne Clinic" (other than the Lucerne Eye Clinic), ditto
Plicotonal. The University of Bern does not employ a Professor Henrik
Jacobson, and a search for the "Blicot Report on Religious Attitudinal Logic
deficiency" turned up nothing. (also btw, that would be a highly irregular
title for a scientific paper to be published under). At any rate, I feel that
even the most pompous psychiatrist would not have made, in print, such absurd
statements as:

"Professor Henrik Jacobson, head of Bern's respected 'Evolutionary
Psycho-Biological Research Unit,' claims that Blicot's findings
support current thinking in the field of evolutionary biology, which
is that nature deliberately 'selects' for irrational beliefs and
'favours' religiosity.....it is Jacobson's belief that in order to preclude
widespread detrimental, disruptive activity and untrammelled sexual
proclivity amongst humans,
a religious mind set is 'encouraged chemically' by nature as a curb
against the breakdown of societal equilibrium in other words it is a
control mechanism."

There are two problems with this statement, first of all since when does
nature select against sex? A gene that did so would certainly not "last long"
in the gene pool, as it simply wouldn't be passed on by non-breeders.
Secondly, religiosity being opposed to sex in NOT in all religious or
spiritual systems and this statement presupposes that the two are in some way
"inherently" connected, which is just not the case.

"Religion precludes the widespread sexual licence on our streets that a
complete absence of morality would allow. "

The writer is writing about three separate issues here, religion, morality,
and sexuality and assuming that the three are mutually inclusive, which they
are not necessarily in all religious systems. It seems that the writer,
whoever it is, has a specific agenda against certain religious systems in
which this does seem to be the case, in general the J/C/I religions (I'm
inferring this also b/c the writer specifically refers to a "shepherd" type
leader) and a certain lack of knowledge of other religious systems.

  "Similarly
other individuals whom nature considers 'viable biologically,' and
'psychologically balanced,' will experience a withdrawal or almost
complete absence of the substance, which often leads to loss of faith,
and atheistic or agnostic tendencies. "

And that's pretty much the agenda the writer went to great lengths to "push",
and I have no doubt that many other smart, savvy agnostics who feel that the
social control of religious systems such as the J/C/I are due to deficits in
intelligence, logic, whatever, will feel vindicated in reading an article
that seems to supply "proof" that these people have something wrong
"biologically" and are blindly passing along this "article" without question.
Ugh, and it's written in such an unsophisticated manner I would go so far as
to guess it's an undergrad writing it who has had some bitter struggle with
the J/C/I folks.
93,
Lilly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>i have long thought that idea of fate seems to make the most sense.

Isn't this fatalistic (well, of course (g))?.  Does it make sense, or is it
merely comforting?

> it follows cause and effect logic

Fate would seem opposed to causality. A belief in fate or destiny implies
that things will happen no matter what, and the only appeal to causality
would be a post hoc appeal to apparent connections (like "this happened,
therefore it happened because of that").

> ...and it seems that were not fate guiding the
>destiny of the world, there would have been a nuclear war and there would
be
>little left.

That's a non sequitur. In a fatalistic philosophy, there was no nuclear war
because it wasn't fated...if it had been, nothing would have prevented it.
This is comforting?

> (i also like the idea cause you can't make mistakes)

This is the greatest weakness of a philosophy based on fate, since it
absolves individuals of any responsibility for their actions. Carried to
extremes, it becomes pernicious (as do most philosopies, to be sure, but the
errors of fatalism seem to be more damaging).

Paul

Do what thou wilt,

   The following paragraphs are an excerpt from The Unity Proofs -
Copyright (c) 2001 Timothy Moss.



   III:47.  This book shall be translated into all tongues: but always
with the original in the writing of the Beast; for in the chance
shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are
mysteries that no Beast shall divine. Let him not seek to try: but
one cometh after him, whence I say not, who shall discover the Key of
it all. Then this line drawn is a key: then this circle squared in
its failure is a key also. And Abrahadabra. It shall be his child &
that strangely. Let him not seek after this; for thereby alone can he
fall from it.

   Rotating the page of the original manuscript to the left until the
line drawn appears horizontal causes the line and circle figures to
appear as Egyptian hieroglyphics. The line marks the beginning of
a new sequence. The circle figure is a determinative sign which is
included in the names of locations. Drawing from the Budge
translation of the Book of the Dead, anytime the symbol appears first
within a sequence it is followed by the word NUT, which means city
or town. Nut was used for describing cities due to the belief the
Egyptian landscape was a mirror image of the starry cosmos. The drawn
figures on the page are confirmed as Nut-related hieroglyphic
symbolism using gematria as applied to the three specific clues
offered in the verse:

   LINE + CIRCLE + ABRAHADABRA = 980 = NUT
   (166  +  386  +  428)


                          THE FIVE POINT SOLUTION

   The symbolism related to Nut and the combined sum of the three
words is actually a cipher within a greater cipher which encompasses
the majority of the text on the page. The line and circle figures as
drawn on the page isolate a specific section of text to the left of
the line and above the circle:

   1. CHANCE
   2. POSITION
   3. THAT NO
   4. NOT SEEK TO
   5. HIM WHENCE
   6. DISCOVER THE KEY
   7. THIS LINE DRAWN IS

   The sums of the first five rows of words transpose through gematria
into a veritable Who's Who of The True Self:

   1. CHANCE             = 197   =  ADONAI
   2. POSITION           = 1100  =  HORUS
   3. THAT NO            = 981   =  AYN
   4. NOT SEEK TO        = 1422  =  AIWASS
   5. HIM WHENCE         = 1052  =  ALASTOR
   6. DISCOVER THE KEY   = 2743
   7. THIS LINE DRAWN IS = 2302

   As important as the transposed terms are to Thelema, their presence
in the sums offers the first point of symmetry an accurate solution
to the verse requires. The second point is found in the combined sums
of the sixteen isolated words, which is 9797, another symmetrical
symbol which embodies unity and suggests a prevailing intelligent
pattern.

      The third and fourth points of symmetry are two other word
sequences which equal 9797. There are eleven total sequences in the
book which equal this value; the last two are found back to back in
verses 47 and 48, beginning with the last sentence in verse 47:

   AND ABRAHADABRA IT SHALL BE HIS CHILD & THAT STRANGELY LET
   HIM NOT SEEK AFTER THIS FOR THEREBY ALONE CAN HE FALL = 9797

   FROM IT NOW THIS MYSTERY OF THE LETTERS IS DONE AND I WANT TO
   GO ON = 9797

   With ten being the average number of word sequences in the book for
most larger gematria sums, the chances two of them might be in close
proximity to one another in thetext is improbable unless the
sequences share a majority of common words. The contiguous sequences
have twenty-one and sixteen words respectively, with only two words
in common between them. The first sequence in the pair starts at the
beginning of a sentence, an aspect which tips the scales in favor of
the sentence being constructed deliberately to conceal a gematria
sum. Any comparitive sequences in the book must meet the criteria set
by these two; I have seen no others so far.

    A examination of the solution offered so far reveals what appears
to be an Achilles heel in this solution: it is the last four words in
III:48. These words make it appear as though the contiguous phrases
might appear at random within the verses as opposed to comprising the
verses. The determination of whether this solution is fantastic luck
or divine architecture hinges upon the four words. If they had been
omitted from the verse the solution offered would appear a little
more exacting, but there would still be a lingering doubt about the
chance of the sequences equalling 9797 at random. A study of III:48
in the original text shows the scribe was in a marked hurry when
writing the words. He was in such a rush when writing the word
LETTERS, his mark for crossing the T's misses them entirely,
blending into the stroke of the letter I in IS. The same hurried
writing is seen through most of the verse until the word ON is
written. After it there is a clear pause in the dictation and
writing, followed by the last four words which run together. The
handwriting evidence indicates the words TO THE HOLIER PLACE were
added as an afterthought to the rest of the verse dictated, a theory
which is verified by the gematria evidence presented here.

   The purpose of the last four words in III:48 is the provision of
a fifth point of symmetry which ties the two verses together from
start to finish as a gematria construct and eliminates any doubt as
to the intelligence behind the design. Adding the four words to the
verse causes the last words in verse 48 have the same gematria sum as
the first words in verse 47:

      THIS BOOK SHALL BE TRANSLATED INTO ALL = 3569

      I WANT TO GO ON TO THE HOLIER PLACE = 3569

50010503 Vom

> From: "RG" <tez666@...>
> Crowley did not spend all the time he did with Allan Bennett for no gain.
> His translation and rendition of the Tao Teh King is perhaps one
> the Beast's best works.

how are the two connected? was Alan Bennett a scholar of chinese
language? what convinces you that Crowley actually translated TTC?

> Some of the Zen practices instill quite a discipline for the mind;
> certainly beneficial to the magician, and producing their own
> unique ways of ecstasy.

was Bennett a Zen Buddhist or some other type?

333

>how are the two connected? was Alan Bennett a scholar of chinese
>language?

Not at all. Alan's strengths were elsewhere.

> what convinces you that Crowley actually translated TTC?


Because it says so on the flyleaf, Tyagi. Geez, are you dense or something?
If he'd adapted it freeform from the SBE transalation or something, it would
say that instead.

>> Some of the Zen practices instill quite a discipline for the mind;
>> certainly beneficial to the magician, and producing their own
>> unique ways of ecstasy.
>
>was Bennett a Zen Buddhist or some other type?
>

Vanilla Theravada, wasn't he? Studied in Sri Lanka, I know that, and
certainly not Zen in any case. Of course, he was hardcore yogi, and
Crowley's own most rigorous period of training was under Alan's guru, when
they studied together in Kandi.

Love,
Paul

Do what thou wilt

Shall be the whole of the Law.

>>> Crowley did not spend all the time he did with Allan Bennett for no
gain.

And still rejected Buddhism, as Bennett later rejected Magick.

>how are the two connected? was Alan Bennett a scholar of Chinese
language?

Bennett knew no Chinese either, in fact Bennett had a pretty low opinion of
all Mahayana sects.

>what convinces you that Crowley actually translated TTC?

He paraphrased from Legge (by his own admission), via inspiration he knew no
Chinese and thus could not translate.  In point of fact Taoism and Buddhism
are about as similar as Christianity and Islam, if that close.  Westerners
tend to think all oriental philosophies look alike.

>>> Some of the Zen practices instill quite a discipline for the mind;
> certainly beneficial to the magician, and producing their own
> unique ways of ecstasy.

With this I agree, I spent many years sitting with the Zen Buddhists at Zen
Center in SF and it was one the superior steps towards mastering the basics
of yoga that Crowley sets down.

>was Bennett a Zen Buddhist or some other type?

Theravada

III,49: I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of
men.

III,50: Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!

III,51: With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the
cross.

III,52: I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.

III,53: With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist,
Mongol and Din.

III,54: Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your crapulous creeds.

David R. Jones aka the other ^333^

50010503 Vom

Brother Paul 'Knight of Salad Forks' Hume:
> >how are the two connected? was Alan Bennett a scholar of chinese
> >language?
>
> Not at all. Alan's strengths were elsewhere.

thanks for clearing that up.

> > what convinces you that Crowley actually translated TTC?
>
> Because it says so on the flyleaf, Tyagi. Geez, are you dense
> or something? If he'd adapted it freeform from the SBE
> transalation or something, it would say that instead.

not if he were trying to pass himself off as knowing more than
he actually did. on the 'lectronic 'flyleaf' (to be found at:

	 http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/021kkking.txt
.
at least one version) it reads "made into a Rime", which could
imply all manner of crafting.

>>> Some of the Zen practices instill quite a discipline for the mind;
>>> certainly beneficial to the magician, and producing their own
>>> unique ways of ecstasy.

does it matter whether one engages solitary vs sangha practice?

>> was Bennett a Zen Buddhist or some other type?
>
> Vanilla Theravada, wasn't he? Studied in Sri Lanka, I know that, and
> certainly not Zen in any case.

thanks for clearing that up.

> Of course, he was hardcore yogi, and Crowley's own most
> rigorous period of training was under Alan's guru, when
> they studied together in Kandi.

how long did that period of training last under Alan's guru?
what was their relationship at Aleister's departure? what was
Alan's guru's desire about contact with Crowley, regimen, and
what his condition of enlightenment might be?

333

Dearest Br. Tyagi -
93.

>> > what convinces you that Crowley actually translated TTC?
>>
>> Because it says so on the flyleaf, Tyagi. Geez, are you dense
>> or something? If he'd adapted it freeform from the SBE
>> transalation or something, it would say that instead.
>
>not if he were trying to pass himself off as knowing more than
>he actually did. on the 'lectronic 'flyleaf' (to be found at:
>
> http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/021kkking.txt
>.
>at least one version) it reads "made into a Rime", which could
>imply all manner of crafting.


I'm sorry for my heavy-handed sarcasm...he did indeed do all manner of
crafting on this, and did indeed adapt it freeform, whether from base
motives or to fulfill an inspiration, from the SBE (Sacred Books of the
East) edition.

>> Of course, he was hardcore yogi, and Crowley's own most
>> rigorous period of training was under Alan's guru, when
>> they studied together in Kandi.
>
>how long did that period of training last under Alan's guru?
>what was their relationship at Aleister's departure? what was
>Alan's guru's desire about contact with Crowley, regimen, and
>what his condition of enlightenment might be?
>

I've never been clear on how long he sent in Sri Lanka with Alan...it seems
have been some months, or longer. I don't know that either Alan or his guru
expressed an opinion on AC's work that has survived. The relationship
between AC and Bennett seems to have been affectionate on parting...at
least, he was one of the few friends with whom Aleister apparently never
fell out.

Love,
Paul

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,

The article I posted is from a yahoogroups mailing list,
philosophy_and_science_of_language.  The following is an article posted in
response.

> "Journal of Genetic Science
> 345 Talon St, Chicago, Ill
>
>
> "Dr. Fredrick Fersen, of the University of Chicago Neuro-Genetic Research
> Institute recently announced still another behavior-specific gene, this
time
> one that apparently indicates some support of the once defunct Lamarkian
> theory of evolution. It is the "high heel" gene. Dr. Fersen, in his
> presentation to the staff of the Journal of Genetic Science, showed
> convincing proof that indeed such a gene is present, since a combination
of
> electro-stimuli and pictures of a wide variety of high heeled women's
shoes
> showed conclusive proof that the human brain is genetically predisposed to
> react to high heeled women's shoes. (Interestingly, high-heeled men's
> shoes produced no response).
>
> "These findings suggest that there may be a plethora of genetic
tendencies,
> some of which may be acquired. Many are not surprised, since Noam Chomsky
> among others, have suggested that there may be genes for a wide variety of
> human behavior."

The Sokal Hoax was performed in the same spirit,
http://skepdic.com/sokal.html


Love is the law, love under will,
Cameron

50010503 Vom Hail Lao Tzu!

Paul 'Knight of Salad Forks' Hume" <paulhume@...>:
> Dearest Br. Tyagi -

nigris, brother nigris, black brother, or 333 is fine, thanks. :>

> 93.

E6!

>>>> what convinces you that Crowley actually translated TTC?

oh I was mistaken, mixing it up with the Tao Teh Ching (Classic of
the Way and its Power) and the I Ching (Classic of Change), with
which I am more familiar due to having made a study of the lines).
so does the Khing Kang King ('The Classic of Purity') have other
translated titles? I looked through my library and could only find
one reference to something similar other than Legge's original
which Crowley adapted.

>>> Because it says so on the flyleaf, Tyagi. Geez, are you dense
>>> or something? If he'd adapted it freeform from the SBE
>>> transalation or something, it would say that instead.
>>
>> not if he were trying to pass himself off as knowing more than
>> he actually did. on the 'lectronic 'flyleaf' (to be found at:
>>
>>  http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/021kkking.txt
>>
>> at least one version) it reads "made into a Rime", which could
>> imply all manner of crafting.
>
> I'm sorry for my heavy-handed sarcasm...

that's ok, I didn't give you the 'Knight of Salad Forks'
initiatory degree for nothing! ;>

> he did indeed do all manner of crafting on this, and did indeed
> adapt it freeform, whether from base motives or to fulfill an
> inspiration, from the SBE (Sacred Books of the East) edition.

and where did you obtain this information? it is not surprising
to me (as I did remember hearing reliable assessments of Crowley's
interpolation and that he only worked with Legge with the other
classics mentioned, inclusive of the fact that it occasionally
appears in at least online versions that Crowley translated the
TTC -- but not the details as you have provided for us, thanks!).

we might as well get to some kind of thorough analysis of his
various chinese interpolations. they are an amusement to scholars
of Chinese scripture, in part because Legge had his limitations
which others have now adequately compensated. numerous religious
other than traditional Chinese have rendered interpolations and,
in some cases, translations providing a context conversant with
their own particular cosmological perspective (as did Crowley).

I'll type in Legge's translations for comparison from SBE within
the next few weeks and then archive it with Crowley's text. ;>
it'd be nice to have other sources. I don't find it with a check
through a number of academic overviews of Taoism and Chinese
Philosophy. only in SBE and AC so far. it appears, from a brief
glance at Legge (SBE, Dover 1962, Appendix I, p. 247), to be
heavily influenced by TTC and, if its name is otherwise
Ch'uan-chen Kung-k'o Ching, may be part of the Taoist Canon. its
origins are fantastic, and have Lao Tzu as a divinity. those who
understand are said to be highly acclaimed, magically transmuted
through exposure to its content, etc.  that is, it is itself a
magical book with a field of effect not unlike descriptions of
scripture the world over.

>>> Of course, he was hardcore yogi, and Crowley's own most
>>> rigorous period of training was under Allan's guru, when
>>> they studied together in Kandi.
>>
>> how long did that period of training last under Allan's guru?
>> what was their relationship at Aleister's departure? what was
>> Allan's guru's desire about contact with Crowley, regimen, and
>> what his condition of enlightenment might be?
>
> I've never been clear on how long he sent in Sri Lanka with
> Allan...it seems have been some months, or longer. I don't
> know that either Alan or his guru expressed an opinion on
> AC's work that has survived.

that would be important in assessing whether Crowley was more
than a reflection of Patanjali's "Yoga Sutras" and some spare
time with Bennett and guru.

> The relationship between AC
> and Bennett seems to have been affectionate on parting...at
> least, he was one of the few friends with whom Aleister
> apparently never fell out.

not only that, I gather that Bennett provided the major seed for
Sephir Sephiroth (as found in "777...", by Crowley, Regardie ed.),
so he was also a student of gematria and, at least minorly, of the
Jewish language upon which that text is based (Hebrew).

blessed beast!
_______________________________________________________________________
((333) nigris) nagasiva@...
	        http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html
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Do what thou wilt

Shall be the whole of the Law.

>and where did you obtain this information? it is not surprising
to me (as I did remember hearing reliable assessments of Crowley's
interpolation and that he only worked with Legge with the other
classics mentioned, inclusive of the fact that it occasionally
appears in at least online versions that Crowley translated the
TTC -- but not the details as you have provided for us, thanks!).

It is covered in brief in Crowley's Autohagiography, in various of his notes
compilated in Red Flame #5, the intro to the most recent edt. of Equinox
vol. III #8, and in Crowley's proposal for the Shi Yi.

>I'll type in Legge's translations for comparison from SBE within
the next few weeks and then archive it with Crowley's text. ;>
it'd be nice to have other sources.

http://www.edepot.com/taotext.html

http://www2.rogue.cc.or.us/owl/Literatur/taoism.html

>not only that, I gather that Bennett provided the major seed for
Sephir Sephiroth (as found in "777...", by Crowley, Regardie ed.),
so he was also a student of gematria and, at least minorly, of the
Jewish language upon which that text is based (Hebrew).

Actually Bennett's work is based on a vertical presentation of the
fundamentally horizontal "Scales" presented by Agrippa and largely repeated
in Barrett's Magus.

Love is the
law, love under will.

David R. Jones aka ^333^

--
[Watch your toes! I'm going to step into this.]
nigris333 and (sir)Paul Hume wrote quite a lot of stuff, but the part
where I come in is:
<after big snip>
>
> >>> Of course, he was hardcore yogi, and Crowley's own most
> >>> rigorous period of training was under Allan's guru, when
> >>> they studied together in Kandi.
> >>
> >> how long did that period of training last under Allan's guru?
> >> what was their relationship at Aleister's departure? what was
> >> Allan's guru's desire about contact with Crowley, regimen, and
> >> what his condition of enlightenment might be?
> >
> > I've never been clear on how long he sent in Sri Lanka with
> > Allan...it seems have been some months, or longer. I don't
> > know that either Alan or his guru expressed an opinion on
> > AC's work that has survived.
>
> that would be important in assessing whether Crowley was more
> than a reflection of Patanjali's "Yoga Sutras" and some spare
> time with Bennett and guru.
>
  AC arrived in Colombo on 6 August 1901 [1*] to meet with Bennett, and
started yoga under Ramantham's (later Sri Parananda) guidance on 14 Aug.
1901 [2*]. And apparently ceased any serious yoga practices soon after
he obtained his 'result' (supposedly Dhyana) on 2 October 1901 [3*]. He
then moved on to Madura where he wrote Sword of Song on or about 16
November. So we are talking around two months of study under a guru. But
we should keep in mind that AC was assiduously practicing the
concentration techniques that Oscar Eckenstein instructed him in since
about February or March of 1901 while in Mexico, that adds about five
extra months of (at least preliminary) work.

*NOTES:
[1]Susan Roberts, The Magician of the Golden Dawn The Story of Aleister
Crowley, Contemporary Books 1978, page 93.
[2]Equinox Vol.1 No.4 (The Temple of Solomon The King) page 154 or 155,
where he writes that he purchased a meditation mat and bronze Buddha.
[3]The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, Arkana Penguin Books, page 248.

phi
--

First post to this list. Glad to be here. (so far)
   Sometime ago I received a *news story* about a new antidepressant that
when administered caused those with religious beliefs to abandon them. The
story was filled with first person accounts of, for the most part, *Born
Again* types that abandoned their delusions upon ingesting said medication.
   This appears to be a bit of a genre among purveyors of internet
misinformation.
   There is an article in this weeks *Newsweek*(I think) on "God and the
Brain", so perhaps there is some *mainstream* basis for all this.
   93,
   X.O.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

93

>
> They want to make money... taking those books out of circulation is a long
> term investiment, you see?


Oh sure, we in the OTO are just SWIMMING in money...we're all getting rich
rich rich from it..

get a clue

93 93/93

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,

> > They want to make money... taking those books out of circulation
> > is a long term investiment, you see?
>
> Oh sure, we in the OTO are just SWIMMING in money...we're all
> getting rich rich rich from it..

There are more fruitful means of making money than publishing books
long out of circulation with intelligent and informative
introductions.


Love is the law, love under will,
Cameron

93

  > Oh sure, we in the OTO are just SWIMMING in money...we're all getting
rich rich rich from it..

No, dude, YOU, mere fees-and-dues paying member, are not getting rich in
that process. Guess WHO is?

93 93/93

.I.

> > Oh sure, we in the OTO are just SWIMMING in money...we're all getting
>rich rich rich from it..
>
>No, dude, YOU, mere fees-and-dues paying member, are not getting rich in
>that process. Guess WHO is?
>


No one, actually.

!KALLICTI!
                          EPIC!      EPOC!

93!

>From: >is "withIn" some place different than "within"? why do you consider
>this to be a valuable source of knowledge? particularly since in
>another piece of email you refer to yourself as "a Man who knows
>nothing". is this secret code which you might decipher for us?
>(some have said that "Man and Brother" or "Man of Earth" are very
>important code language for them, but don't always explain why.)

      I sometimes use capital letters to express a Magical emphasis. I also
use "mySelf' on occasion. It differentiates the mundane self from the
Magickal Self. The Self is, to me, is the learned Conscience. That nagging
feeling that you wouldn't have unless you had trained and done those LBRs.
Rather like the martial arts.
      There is no secret code. I follow the Laws of Thelema. I am an Enigma
wrapped in a Paradox. As are, I suspect, most Thelemites. When I say I know
nothing, I know very little of all the MCOTO, Crowlyanian or whatever. I was
in the US OTO back in the 80's-90's. Just kind of getting back in the
groove, re-reading old rituals, etc...

>how can you tell who are the "TRUE" Brothers and Sisters and who
>are merely play-acting?

      Time will show and for the lack of better words, you'll be "drawn" to
certain Brothers and Sisters in the Order. Ones who would never screw you
over. For verily, yea verily, there are Brothers and then there are
brothers. I learned hardly as did most everyone here I suspect.

93! 93/93

AKINGU/9
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

XCiii PAN!

On Thu, 3 May 2001, Percival Rosario Maiolo wrote:

> 93
>
> >
> > They want to make money... taking those books out of circulation is a long
> > term investiment, you see?
>
>
> Oh sure, we in the OTO are just SWIMMING in money...we're all getting rich
> rich rich from it..
>
> get a clue

I dare to pronounce that I have a clue... Vid your comment; then why do
you bother?  The futures market in thelema per chance... I would that you
would be reasonable...  Defining Thelema is big bucks if Xstianity if any
thing to go by... Are you in it for the long haul?  The bucks will
promulgate if you win... THE BATTLE FOR THE NEW AEON...


I renounce (c)OTO,
All its' snares, all its' pomps & all its' servitude... & I will find my
true will, suffer history, cash & kudos mongers of the NEW AEON,

Freedom of conscience be with those who would embrace such.
Freedom of Conscience = Freedom to explore & search for ones True Will,

"yakity yak, don't talk back"

   .   .   .   .   .
A. .G. .A. .P. .E. .

BVS




>
> 93 93/93
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> thelema93-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Barry,
93
>
> I dare to pronounce that I have a clue

I must say, I dare to take your 'clue' with a grain of salt, after all, you
WERE the one going around on IRC about how you and HB are good buddies and
YOU had re-written all the OTO degree rituals for the Order. Thank you for
playing.

93 93/93

XCiii PAN!

On Fri, 4 May 2001, Percival Rosario Maiolo wrote:

> Barry,
> 93
Barrington actually, annoy me & call me Barry s.v.p.

> >
> > I dare to pronounce that I have a clue
>
> I must say, I dare to take your 'clue' with a grain of salt, after all, you

I take every thing with a grain of salt; good form....

> WERE the one going around on IRC about how you and HB are good buddies and

HB is a schmuck, HB has destroyed (c)OTO.  Motta would be proud... ?!
IMHO... naturally.

> YOU had re-written all the OTO degree rituals for the Order. Thank you for

Actually the lovers Triad only, & a submission at that.  Aiwaz only a mere
V* at the end of the time (the dumping ground of "we let them in but we
shouldn't of") - in (c)OTO at least.  Yes I informed DAvid Scriven of the
customs of Mem Miz & various alleged ancestors of (c)OTO. DS seemed to
have guzumped a rival, with my info & become X.  If only X were more
creative & wonderous than the beaurocratic stodge that "spiel seeking a
practice" (c)OTO has redused it to...

In any case I'm in possesion of MSS et varia that (c)OTO are informed by
if not work, that are in large part penned a moi, Lovers Triad &c. &c. &c.


> playing.

with what?

>
> 93 93/93

I hope for your sake, you mean it?!

agape

BVS
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> thelema93-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Care!
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

cbailes@... writes:

    > There are more fruitful means of making money than publishing books
>

Of course!  You can follow the tradition of most of the Orders of the past
and tax your members.  Sales is also a great method.  Selling Sales Aids is
even better.  I don't really pay attention to the orders of today, but if
they are anything like the orders of Crowley's time, someone is getting "rich
rich rich!".  To be honest, I can't see why any Order would want to keep
their documents secret.  If you have the Truth, and you love your neighbor,
wouldn't you want to afford your neighbor the opportunity to share in the
Truth?  Now, insofar as initiation rituals are concerned, you might not want
to know what is coming if you're on the path that would lead you to that
ritual.  So you would not read that ritual.  If however you were not, and you
wanted to understand the technology employed in the ritual, you would
probably read that ritual.  If you weren't a dilettante about it, you might
do something with the ideas you took from it.  It all comes down to the
individual making up his mind for himself.  I occasionally hear of this Order
or that Order telling people that this or that is secret and not to be shared
and I think to myself : how Osirian.  Rather than allowing others the
opportunity to take responsibility for themselves and their attainment,  we
the enlightened masters of Order X will decide how best they shall proceed.
If any do not agree, we will attempt to deny them access to our technology.
The Roman Church played that game.  The time for that is past.  I also hear
people occasionally murmur things like "if you aren't a member of Order X,
our documents won't do you any good anyway, because it requires initiated
interpretation."   Well, if that's the case, then I really don't understand
the secrecy issue.  If you're essentially equating giving Bob Smith your
documents with giving Rocco the Chimpanzee a text on Nuclear Physics
(exaggeration intentional), then why do you worry about if Bob reads it or
not?  That's really all I have to say on that subject.  I am wondering if
this list is, contrary to its description, a place for various Orders and
their membership to vent their gripes at various other Orders and their
membership?  Thusfar, 85% or so of the traffic I have received is concerned
with the OTO's (whichever) affairs.  Since I think that quibbling over who's
OTO is the most official, the most enlightened, the most initiated, the most
valid or whatnot is really more or less a descent back into the structure of
the Dying God religions, I don't particularly feel pleased by this
development.  So I'll suggest topics that will please me.  Personally, I was
more wondering about say, the list members' opinions concerning the comment
to Liber AL vel Legis, or perhaps opinions concerning the Rabelaisian
conception of Thelema.

Love is the law, love under will.
Lamplight.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 05/04/2001 2:21:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
teitan666@... writes:

> Rituals help to
>  put the power in you, but it is your assimilation and integration
>  that say whether you pass or fail.

This seemed like a plausable explanation to me and I was going to ask a
question about it, until I saw the statement below , whose nonsense cancels
out the sense of the above.

>  Or certian neophytes who take the Oath of 8=3 in order to cover up
>  their embezzlements.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Greetings:

   I don't really pay attention to the orders of today, but if
   they are anything like the orders of Crowley's time, someone is getting "rich
   rich rich!".

   Where do you get that? Crowley certainly wasn't getting rich. In fact he spent
all of his money in pursuit of his Great Work as well as hefty portions of other
people's income. Some resented this. Some did not.


   To be honest, I can't see why any Order would want to keep
   their documents secret.  If you have the Truth, and you love your neighbor,
   wouldn't you want to afford your neighbor the opportunity to share in the
   Truth?

   Depends on what the "Truth" is doesn't it?


   Now, insofar as initiation rituals are concerned, you might not want
   to know what is coming if you're on the path that would lead you to that
   ritual.  So you would not read that ritual.  If however you were not, and you
   wanted to understand the technology employed in the ritual, you would
   probably read that ritual.

   One of the things that is being overlooked is the fact that the "technology
employed" is keeping it a secret. Secrecy adds to "Mystery" which heightens
anticpation which focuses awareness. To put in the words of an old Indian
Sorcerer: If you know which hole the rabbit is going to pop out of every time,
then there is no excitement. Who wants to live in a world where every little
thing can be predicted with dead set accuracy? What would we do for excitement?



    If you weren't a dilettante about it, you might
   do something with the ideas you took from it.  It all comes down to the
   individual making up his mind for himself.  I occasionally hear of this Order
   or that Order telling people that this or that is secret and not to be shared
   and I think to myself : how Osirian.

   Do you tell your kids what is wrapped up in the box you are giving them for
their birthday? (You may, I don't know. I don't) Why? Because it is a surprise.
There are many reasons for keeping something a mystery that have nothing to do
with "fear" or "control issues".

   Rather than allowing others the
   opportunity to take responsibility for themselves and their attainment,  we
   the enlightened masters of Order X will decide how best they shall proceed.

   If this were in fact true, it would be in keeping with the spirit of the Book
of the Law. "Let my servants be few and secret. They shall rule the many and the
known" and about a dozen other quotations that I don't have time to list right
now.

   If any do not agree, we will attempt to deny them access to our technology.

   What if the technology in question is potentially dangerous? Do you not think
this to be the case with some of the techniques of magick? I am all for denying
access to nuclear weapons to those who don't agree with my beliefs as they might
use that very thing to destroy my beliefs, which I, afterall cherish and wish to
preserve. This is consistant throughout nature.


   The Roman Church played that game.  The time for that is past.  I also hear
   people occasionally murmur things like "if you aren't a member of Order X,
   our documents won't do you any good anyway, because it requires initiated
   interpretation."

   If you do not understand the conditions surrounding a piece of knowledge, if
you do not understand the intent of those who cultivated it there is every
chance that you may do more harm than good. It would be irresponsible of those
who have assimilated the cultural conditioning required to relinquish it to
someone just be they were some sort of curious demando.

    Well, if that's the case, then I really don't understand
   the secrecy issue.  If you're essentially equating giving Bob Smith your
   documents with giving Rocco the Chimpanzee a text on Nuclear Physics
   (exaggeration intentional), then why do you worry about if Bob reads it or
   not?

   How about obligations of responsibility required for having access to the
information? Should someone be delinquent in their duties which they took upon
themselves just because it will piss someone else off if they don't?

   Since I think that quibbling over who's
   OTO is the most official, the most enlightened, the most initiated, the most
   valid or whatnot is really more or less a descent back into the structure of
   the Dying God religions, I don't particularly feel pleased by this
development.

   This is understandable and I personally agree with your sentiment. However, I
would not think it reasonable for me to go demanding the secrets formulated by
HOOR or TOTO or SOTO if I was not interested in participating in their works. I
would certainly not expect them to just hand them over. I do emphatically agree
with you though on having to filter through the muck slung between Thelemic
bodies over who is superior. I have my own theories regarding the legitimacy of
Crowley's succession in the Thelemic community. I personally feel that Crowley
was vague as he felt that the eventually the strongest person would be able to
lay claim to the throne and it was desirable that this person would be strong
and able to rule fitly then being merely an appointee.

   So I'll suggest topics that will please me.  Personally, I was
   more wondering about say, the list members' opinions concerning the comment
   to Liber AL vel Legis, or perhaps opinions concerning the Rabelaisian
   conception of Thelema.

   Ah yes, the comment. How about the passages in the Book of the Law that
advises in what manner the Book would be discussed?

   Love is the law, love under will.

   Bliss:
   Alamantra
   http://www.mp3.com/alamantra
   http://www.members.tripod.com/musicians_guild


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