--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
wrote:

> so, why not stick to Yoga?

As I see it Crowley's system can be understood as a Western equivalent to Yoga.
It is a systematic method of attaining self realization. In order to do what you
will, you need to learn what your will truly is, which requires the perspective
of Samadhi.


> Why add Tarot, why add Enochian; why add Freemasonry etc. etc.?

These are all mnemonic devices designed to aid this process.


> Another point, why also do we have transparently clear
> non-cryptic records of sex magic for hard cash?

Works of thaumaturgy are lawful only to the extent that they are required to
support the central theurgic task.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

Ave et..

This notice that the Sapientia OTO has changed its name to the
Sapientia OTA.

The reasons are to avoid confrontation with the aggressive stance of the
Caliphate OTO; whom (according to my understanding) are instrumental in the
closure of Koenig's website, Kenneth Grant's Typhonian OTO, the Albion OTO and
others.

While the Caliphate have at yet caused our group any problems, I and the other
co-chief, believe it is to the best to take the initiative.

Confrontation is only worth while if there is a prize at the end of it. There is
little to be gained by being on the defensive.

Additionally there is more to be gained, by cooperating with fellow
Thelemites, some whom are friends and members of the Caliphate. To stubbornly
stick to the old OTO name; occasionally causing problems, which in otherwise
would be a good working relationship with these adepts.

The Sapientia OTA will continue the Thelemic workings and the current of the OTO
within its own aegis under its own name. We have good multiple linage(s) to both
Ruess' and Crowley' OTO from multiple sources both Europe and Latin America. A
name change can never remove our parentage. Our NZ group are planning a Equinox
ceremony this weekend, in which the Thelemic workings are the central core of
more formalised ceremonies to the Archangels and the worship of Aphrodite
(Southern Hemisphere).

D333R (co-Chief)

Love is the law, love under will.

Could Hadit and Nuit be interpreted as the dual nature of reality? Hadit being
the paritcle and Nuit being the wave? The particle being the     observable
mass, the point, and the wave being omnipresent? Is this similar in concept to
quantum non-locality?
   If anyone has any information on this interpretation please post a link or the
name of any books that may be relevant.
   I've always conceived of Hadit an Nuit as all possible duality, but the more I
learn about physics, the more it comes to mind. Thank you in advance.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The Great Work embraced by Steve Jobs took the idea that "Every man and every
woman is a star" and made it a reality. His intellectual curiosity and
wide-ranging interests in metaphysics, psychedelics, mythology etc laid a large
foundation for an individual whose life will influence every person on this
planet for generations. Thanks to the technology created by him and those who
worked with him and those who grew ideas out of the soil of the personal
computer and the internet and those who became his competitors, media and its
propagation have been endowed to every individual to create what sHe will. Steve
Jobs Great Work has had a revolutionary effect on human consciousness. The
revolution may not be televised, but it is being streamed live, world wide in
real time.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alamantra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

FWIW,

war-engine by eq11 =

	 Scarlet Woman
	 Crowned Child
	 Baphomet
	 Emperor
	 the Beast

hmmm...


On 09/06/2011 02:57 AM, richard stratton wrote:
> Dear Jake,
>
>     Thanks again for responding. I agree with you regarding the exegetical
> rules A.C. lays down. Thus the reason I refer and quote them.
>
> Yes QBL, battering ram. I have also read considered speculations the machine
> in question is a catapult! I find both images of equal
>
> interest.
>
>     Regarding the word "war" in L.L. If I am not mistaken, all instances of
> its occurrence are in Ch3, its appearance in v.3 is the only
>
> time it is capitalized; improperly . Following A.C.'s principals of exegesis
> this seems a logical invitation towards a deeper,
>
> secondary meaning. And, of course, as you've pointed out in your own
> examples, a straight-forward meaning need not be
>
> abandoned.
>
>     Concerning III/47, I suspect there may be some real truth to that,
> especially if one stays within the perimeters of basic and
>
> established qabbalistic exegesis. That is, to me, the "war-engine". I guess
> I should mention my own working out of this key verse has
>
> nothing to do with the creation of an English qabbalah. Truthfully, not one
> of the gemutria like approaches I've seen is convincing.
>
>     I know you are a  busy man, so thank you again Jake, for your kind and
> thoughtful reply.
>
>
>                               My kindest regards . . .Richard Stratton.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Jake Stratton-Kent<
> jakestrattonkent@...>  wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> On 1 September 2011 21:39, richard stratton<pehrose@...>  wrote:
>>> Dear Jake,
>>>     Thank you for your kind and considered response. Playing the D.A. is
>>> often, if not always, of benefit to open discussion. I should simply like
>> to
>>> address your first point regarding the guidelines in E of G.
>>>      In his conclusion to the principles of Exegesis #3 A.C. states:
>> "Where
>>> the text is simple, straightforward English, I shall not seek, or allow,
>> any
>>> interpretation at variance with it." Though the word "literal" is not
>> used
>>> here, "simple, straightforward English", is good enough for me. However,
>> he
>>> goes on to say: "I may admit a Qabalistic or cryptographic secondary
>> meaning
>>> when such confirms, amplifies, deepens, intensifies, or clarifies the
>>> obvious common-sense significance; but only if it be part of the general
>>> plan of the "latent light" and self-proven by abundant witness." This
>> seems
>>> to indicate A.C. is not *against* a secondary meaning, even for plainly
>>> literal parts of the text. What do you think about this?
>>
>> these 'rules' are the closest thing we have to the foundation of an
>> exegetical system, and thus among the more valuable parts of his
>> legacy.
>>
>>
>>>      As to what he will "admit"; under point 6. Wherever- a. "The words of
>>> the text are obscure in themselves." This pretty much covers the phrase
>>> "war-engine", at least for me. And f. "The use of capital letters present
>>> peculiarities." It seem peculiar to me in III/3 both the word "War" and
>>> "Vengeance" are capitalized! Of course VV is Vau spelled in full. I'm
>> sure
>>> you are quite aware of the significance of that letter in Qabalah.
>>>     The above seems to pretty well support a secondary meaning of the word
>>> "War", and the phrase "war-engine" in the text. I very much look forward
>> to
>>> you response.
>>
>> you may have more worked out than I have seen, and I shall assume that you
>> do.
>> Plainly "war-engine" might indicate 'qobel' (battering ram) and thus
>> war-engine. War by itself however would require some other indicator.
>> There remains the literal sense of a collective struggle, and of
>> solidarity in the process.
>>
>> There is of course the possibility that the qabalistic 'war engine'
>> implied is the order&  value of the English alphabet et al. Indeed I
>> recall a gematria calculator bearing this very name. This need not
>> contradict measured interpretations obtained via Hebrew (or even
>> bilingual wordplay like Nuit = night in French); quite the contrary,
>> since the bottom line has to be indicators within the text where
>> methods such as these are implied. A coherent exegetical standard is
>> plainly a good thing for Thelema to evolve for itself.
>>
>> ALWays
>>
>>
>> Jake
>>
>> http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> --------------------------------

5011101911 e.v. KY
--------------------
TO: thesonofthebeast <thesonofthebeast@...>:

I think pacifism and Thelema are perfectly compatible. once one specializes to
the point of ridiculous cultism, one effectively self-disempowers and cannot be
held accountable for anything any longer (opting out of society).

your method of apology isn't intelligent. It duplicates all of the problems that
extensive cults have from which those who are coming to Thelema are running
away. it's interesting that you focussed so much on power while you are
effectively disempowering yourself. there's a direct relationship here, i'm
guessing.

--------------------
TO: Jake (Devils advocaat)

Thelemic prophets are a big deal to themselves, and of variable intensity,
celebrity, and notoriety elsewise. there is no necessary dictum in the content
or implication of any Thelemite's scripture. you pull yourself up by your own
bootstraps under the tutelage and superstructure of a prophet or you become one
yourself and cease making futile generalizations about what any scribble means
in some cosmic sense.

as you yourself said ("The prophet's guidance in exegesis is discreetly ignored
while he and his system remain iconic in other respects"), cultists ought to
appeal to the writings of the Master (fetch the marrow of this), thus:

"Fight! Fight like gentlemen, without malice, because fighting is the best game
in the world, and love the second best! Don't slander your enemy, as the
newspapers would have you do; just kill him, and then bury him with honour.
Don't keep crying 'Foul' like a fifth-rate pugilist. Don't boast! Don't squeal!
If you're down, get up and hit him again! Fights of that sort make fast friends.

"There is perhaps a magical second-meaning in this verse, a reference to the
Ritual of which we find hints in the legend of Cain and Abel, Esau and Jacob,
Set and Osiris, et cetera. The "Elder Brother" within us, the Silent Self, must
slay the younger brother, the conscious self, and he must be raised again
incorruptible."

-- http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/220-commentaries.html

> ...if the point {of Crowley's magical system} is only suppressing
> undesired psychological tendencies, wouldn't it be cheaper to
> take some tranquilisers?

this and the next generalization are simply too blatant to be useful. for any
particular aspirant the tool of the Lawbook might suffice to gain ground on the
Great Work through the course of a particular stage or segment, and yet become a
tomb or cul de sac from which she must crawl if she wants to continue to succeed
(and suck eggs).

as for whys and wherefores, there are more than 75 instances of the term
'because' in the Commentaries last i checked, despite the rumours of this word's
untimely death. image, ecstasy, entertainment constitute obvious optional
detours on the road to mystical glory. it wasn't what Baphomet left behind him
but what fun he had on the road that constituted the import to the prophet.
understanding? a big fat booby prize. he sat there holding his ball with a
perplexed look.

btw, he *was* anonymous, he just cloaked that in hubris and notoriety. ;)
--------------------
(3) TO: Jake

arguments by design of composite universal kwablahblahs encased in the automatic
writing from a Beast seem strained. let those of quick and shining brilliance
delve the innards of the nearest orangutan if that be their wont, and they have
the means whereby to best the ape and secure his gut.

the reason why not to stick to yoga is because the Master didn't. the motivation
for the addition of Tarot probably relates to Bohemians, Thoth, and the Comte de
Melet, not to mention the contrivances of Constant. Enochian was the endearment
of Dee and Mathers. its thematic Biblical placation not only suggest demonic
enterprises but the ascendancy to the godhead. get out that Dee translation of
the Necronomicon while you're at it. Freemasonry? Old Crowley put down that
petard before he had himself hoist upon it in the wake of Reuss. it was enough
to put on kilts and pretend to chieftainship.

the span of sex magic is completely misinterpreted, though it was mapped by
those such as i in the last decade or two in preparation for expository
rhetoric. since the AEonic Word is FUCK, this explains the clarity of the
records.

alas, you have it aright when you speak of hip slogans and sciences dealing with
New Age esoterix. Thelema is not alone in this, so don't fault it too heavily,
as it may yet recover with but a few blows to the head(s) (e.g. use Olav('s)
Hammer!). the warty Crowley never had it in him to be the face of a vanguard. he
was always on the downslope looking up, and never quite legitimate enough to
Pollitt off.

--------------------
(4) TO: Jake

the best exegesis in the world is of no account without a sufficient target of
analysis. it is an over-estimation that religious documents actually qualify for
this, though mystics attempt to subject them to coarse analysis regardless. get
something poetic and truly meaty and the confusion will become too daunting for
most involved in the Work of the Occident. contrast this with ancient Chinese or
the Fortunes of Faust, or Art of Memory, and you'll have pieces to master.
abandon all hope ye Thelema who enter here. for ye shall never evolve, only
reform to each individual taking you up. make your scripture and be thine own
prophet. exegete be thou and brighter still the revelation out of thine own
corpus. wallowing in the remains of others tends to produce disease.

--------------------
(5) TO: Church of Gnostic Luminism <luminist93@...>

you do what you will in every moment, though you may not know of it at the time.
no special perspectives are required to do that, other than to put oneself
full-force into that herve and verve. requiring reductions of august mystical
states like a rarefaction and specialty discloses no more quickly the
significance of self-realization, even by assault.

there is no central theurgic task outside certain opinionated and biased gods.

Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Zazas!

333

On 19 October 2011 11:45, nigris (333) <nagasiva@...> quoted
Fat Eddie thusly:

"Fight! Fight like gentlemen, without malice, because fighting is the
best game in the world, and love the second best! Don't slander your
enemy, as the newspapers would have you do; just kill him, and then
bury him with honour. Don't keep crying 'Foul' like a fifth-rate
pugilist. Don't boast! Don't squeal! If you're down, get up and hit
him again! Fights of that sort make fast friends."

aside from - allegedly - shooting some dacoits, Crowley's pugilistic
record is rather slim.

Its very doubtful AC had any relevant experience on which to base this
'manly' statement, which has the ring of Victorian boys school BS.
Perhaps he was having a Kipling moment?

as for my priorities, I'd sooner fuck than fight, and sooner fight than run.

ALWays

Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/

50111019 e.v. KY

Jake Stratton-Kent responded to Fat Eddie thusly:
> aside from - allegedly - shooting some dacoits, Crowley's pugilistic
> record is rather slim.
>
> Its very doubtful AC had any relevant experience on which to base this
> 'manly' statement, which has the ring of Victorian boys school BS.
> Perhaps he was having a Kipling moment?

it is claimed that this is not Crowley's text, and therefore by this logic we
should not expect him to have had anything to base it upon. at least this was
how he crafted his description of it once deciding that it wasn't actually
automatic writing after all and digging it out of his shunted notebooks.

secondarily, i think our original poster had something more relevant in mind for
supporting his War effort: a very reasonable citation of the 3rd portion of
Crowley's Lawbook. y'all covered some of the gematria with war-engine or its
variants. I did appreciate the comment also from herupakraath regarding its
publication timing. I have wondered whether there was some kind of millenarian
streak to the Plymouth Brethren, though i gather they didn't go in for
apocalyptics. a comparison and contrast between Plymouth Brethren cosmology and
ideology and Crowleyan Thelema might prove illuminating.

> as for my priorities, I'd sooner fuck than fight, and sooner fight than run.

if tying it to the man, he did also make reference to the arts of drinking and
whatever, and i am sure there was emphasis placed upon British gentlemanly
pursuits (esp. of a poet, mountain climber, and rouguish inheritor with some
actual breeding, by their assessment). these all are quite distant from me, so i
hesitate to evaluate them too strongly.

my priorities in comparison are similar, though being of a physical character
more suited to field or escape, and *not* for pugilistic pursuits (ouch!), i've
chosen to flee and live to fuck another day. ;)

333

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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.



TAHUTI LODGE
ORDO TEMPLI ORIENTIS
NYC

NOVEMBER 2011 CALENDAR OF EVENTS

+++
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Website: http://tahutilodge.org Inquires: tahutilodge@...
Telephone for Events: (845) 204-8832
Mail / Correspondence: Tahuti Lodge, O.T.O.; Old Chelsea Station; P.O. Box 1535;
New York, NY 10113-1535


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Wednesday, November 2, 2011 EV


MAGICK IN THEORY & PRACTICE STUDY GROUP


OPEN EVENT
7:45 pm


We will be studying this most important textbook on magick theory and practice a
chapter at a time.

Please bring your copy of MTP or download the files from the web and read them
in advance.


Part II-IV of:  CHAPTER XVIII: OF CLAIRVOYANCE AND THE BODY OF LIGHT ITS POWER
AND ITS DEVELOPMENT
ALSO CONCERNING DIVINATION

http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/chap18.html


Although handouts will be available for participants, please read the material
beforehand online so we can get a lively discussion going.


You can find the entire text of MTP online here:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/


RSVP tahutilodge@... for additional information and directions.


Suggested Donation: $10



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Sunday, November 6, 2011 EV


A PUBLIC CELEBRATION OF ALEISTER CROWLEY'S LIBER XV: THE GNOSTIC MASS


OPEN EVENT
2:00 PM



Tahuti Lodge, O.T.O., invites you to join us for a public celebration of

Liber XV: The Gnostic Mass, our central ritual both public and private.


An ideal introduction into the Mysteries and Magick of O.T.O.


Presented under the auspices of Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, and Ordo Templi
Orientis


This Event will take place at our dedicated Temple


To RSVP for this event and receive directions, please email
tahutilodge@...


Suggested donation: $10


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Wednesday November 9, 2011 EV

FULL MOON RITUAL

A Mystic Moon Ritual



Come join us to attune
to the dark of the year
In the season
when the veil is thin


OPEN EVENT
7:30 pm


To RSVP for this events and receive directions,
please email tahutilodge@...


Suggested donation: $10


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Sunday, November 13, 2011 EV


NATURAL LIBERATION THROUGH MEDITATION


OPEN EVENT
2:00 pm


Why meditate?

A good question and one that every magician should ponder most carefully.

The class, drawn from "Natural Liberation, Padmasambhava's teachings on the six
Bardos",
explores the discipline and practical techniques that are fundamental to
meditation and our own magical progress.

Join us as we begin to explore and practice simple yet powerful, life changing
meditational techniques.

For this session please bring a stone or crystal for meditation and a journal
for recording results of your work.


To RSVP for this event and receive directions, please email
tahutilodge@...



Suggested donation: $10


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Saturday, November 19, 2011 EV


THE OCCULT INFLUENCE ON MUSIC

Past & Present


OPEN EVENT
4:00 pm


Join Frater Scarabeus for an fascinating discussion of how the occult, alchemy
and Kabbalah
has influenced classical and popular music in the past, and the present age.

(Hand outs will be distributed)


To RSVP for this event and receive directions, please email
tahutilodge@...



Suggested donation: $10


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Sunday November 20th


TAHUTI LODGE THANKSGIVING FEAST!


OPEN EVENT
Doors: 6:00 pm


It's that time of year again, with Thanksgiving and Holiday parties just around
the corner.

Come join the brethren of Tahuti Lodge for an Italian Feast to give thanks for
our community.

Socialize with members and make merry!



Entertainment to include a reading from Aleister Crowley's Rites of Eleusis, The
Rite of Sol.



Family style Italian meal with both meat and vegetarian options, salad, desert
and appetizers.


All welcome!


Donation bar will be available!



Ticket Information

$20 pre-paid and for members
PayPal prepayment to: tahutilodge@...

$25 day of the event




To RSVP for this event and receive directions, please email
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AND COMING IN DECEMBER

SUNDAY, DECEMBER 4, 2011 EV


A PUBLIC CELEBRATION OF ALEISTER CROWLEY'S GNOSTIC MASS


  ~~~  IN MANHATTAN   ~~~


OPEN EVENT
2:00 pm


Tahuti Lodge, O.T.O., invites you to join us for a very special Public
Celebration of

Liber XV: The Gnostic Mass, our central ritual both public and private.

An ideal introduction into the Mysteries & Magick of O.T.O.

Presented under the auspices of Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, and Ordo Templi
Orientis



LOCATION:

THIS EVENT WILL BE HELD IN MANHATTAN

440 STUDIOS
440 Lafayette St
New York, NY 10003-6919

STUDIO 4G


Between Astor Place and East 4th St.
Directly across from The Public Theater.
Elevator to the 3rd & 4th Floors.


For directions and transit info see here:
http://440studios.com/how-do-i-get-there/


For more information:  http:// http://www.tahutilodge.org/manhattan_masses.php


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This Event is OPEN to the Public 18+


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Suggested donation for this event, $10





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There is a suggested minimum contribution for most events of $10.00 to help
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Love is the law, love under will.

What do muslims think about thelema?

Best,

FB

I just love it when broad group labels are applied to the thoughts of
individuals for the purposes of propaganda and proselytizing.

Alamantra
http://alamantra.org




----- Original Message -----
From: mm.abdulfattah
To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:16 PM
Subject: [t93] What do Muslims think of Jesus?



What do Muslims think of Jesus?

No such being as 'Allah' except for the "images" that people have created out of
their own imaginations. They put them in books and push their fables and
fantasies as some sort of divine "reality." Ancestor worship and peer pressure
take care of the rest.
  Besides, we prefer Al-La. Make your own peace. Work out your own salvation.
"There won't be any trumpets blowing come the Judgment Day."

ALa-mantra
http://alamantra.org





   ----- Original Message -----
   From: mm.abdulfattah
   To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 PM
   Subject: [t93] What Is Islam?



   What Is Islam?
   The word ISLAM has a two-fold meaning: peace, and submission to God. This
submission requires a fully conscious and willing effort to submit to the one
Almighty God. One must consciously and conscientiously give oneself to the
service of Allah. This means to act on what Allah enjoins all of us to do (in
the Qur'an) and what His beloved Prophet, Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged us to do in
his Sunnah (his lifestyle and sayings personifying the Qur'an).
   Once we humble ourselves, rid ourselves of our egoism and submit totally to
Allah, and to Him exclusively, in faith and in action, we will surely feel peace
in our hearts. Establishing peace in our hearts will bring about peace in our
external conduct as well.
   Islam is careful to remind us that it not a religion to be paid mere lip
service; rather it is an all-encompassing way of life that must be practiced
continuously for it to be Islam. The Muslim must practice the five pillars of
the religion: the declaration of faith in the oneness of Allah and the
prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh), prayer, fasting the month of Ramadan, alms-tax,
and the pilgrimage to Makkah; and believe in the six articles of faith: belief
in God, the Holy Books, the prophets, the angels, the Day of Judgment and God's
decree, whether for good or ill.
   There are other injunctions and commandments which concern virtually all
facets of one's personal, family and civic life. These include such matters as
diet, clothing, personal hygeine, interpersonal relations, business ethics,
responsibilities towards parents, spouse and children, marriage, divorce and
inheritance, civil and criminal law, fighting in defense of Islam, relations
with non-Muslims, and so much more.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, if congress said so...

I suppose when the great state of Mississippi declares by a vote of its
legislature that life begins at conception it will be true in that state because
the majority rule of Mississippi is all that is required to decide matters of
cosmology. (Of course, life began before conception or there would have been
no-one around to do the conceiving.)

  ...Perhaps a constitutional amendment would be able to settle the nature of the
soul(s) as well. Maybe they can work out the definition of "eternity" while they
decide what the word "marriage" means, too. These people want to impose their
definitions for the word "marriage" but they aren't that worried about what
defines a "person." A corporation is a person, but a woman who has been raped is
not. A fertilized egg is a person, but a child starving in the streets is not.
Life begins with a corporate charter. It's in the Holy Babble, somewhere.

Alamantra
http://alamantra.org



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: mm.abdulfattah
   To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:16 PM
   Subject: [t93] U.S. Congress on Islam



   U.S. Congress on Islam

   The American Congress official opinion of Islam as outlined in a concurrent
resolution by the 96th Congress (1979) honoring the 14th century of Islam. This
opinion of the American Government is hardly known by the American public.
   S. Con. Res. 43
   Honoring the Fourteenth Centennial of Islam.
   IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
   October 4 (legislative day, June 21), 1979
   Mr. Stone submitted the following concurrent resolution; which was referred to
the Committee on Foreign Relations
   October 15, 1979
   Reported by Mr. Church, with an amendment to the preamble
   October 16 (legislative day, October 15), 1979
   Considered and agreed to
   CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
   Honoring the Fourteenth Centennial of Islam.
   Whereas November 21, 1979, marks the fourteen hundredth anniversary of the
founding of Islam, an event which will be commemorated throughout the world,
including in the Holy Cities of Islam; and
   Whereas Islam is one of the mankind's great religions in history and today,
followed by approximately eight hundred million people encompassing every major
region of the world; and
   Whereas the word "Islam" derives from Abraham's willingness to accept all
God's commands, an example profoundly meaningful to all monotheistic religions;
and
   Whereas the "House of Islam" extended gracious hospitality to philosophy and
science in both the East and West when these scholarly disciplines were
threatened by narrowness and prejudice, thus preserving this precious heritage
for subsequent generations; and
   Whereas Islam strives for a world-wide community which, in the words of one
Islamic poet-philosopher, "does not recognize the superficial differences of
race, or history, or nationality"; and
   Whereas the United States and countries of the Islamic world hold in common
many benefits and values including the concept of world community, which
inspired the founding Fathers of our own country; and
   Whereas international understanding and peace are strengthened by free and
open communications among nations representing various historical and religious
traditions:
   Now, therefore, be it
   . Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concurring),
   That Islam is hereby recognized for the rich religious, scientific, cultural,
and artistic contribution it has made to mankind since its founding.
   . Sec. 2. The Congress takes note of the contribution of Islam and wishes
success to the fourteenth centennial commemoration.
   . Sec. 3. On the occasion of this anniversary, the Congress pledges its
efforts to achieve better understanding, reductions of tensions, and the pursuit
of improved relations with all nations of the world.
   Sec. 4. The Congress requests that the President forward a copy of this
resolution to the Chief of State of each country where Islam has a significant
following and where celebrations will mark this important international event.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Even though the idiot who trolled this list was annoying, I love that he or she
posted because I

really enjoyed reading your replies, Alamantra!  :o)  Very cool. 


Love, Li

 
"28. O NOES, nother maff test!"


"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that being normal is not
necessarily a virtue?  It rather denotes a lack of courage."
- Aunt Frances, in Practical Magic


"You have not converted a man by silencing him"   -  John Morley


"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you
realize that what you heard is not what I meant...."
- Anonymous


________________________________
From: Alamantra <alamantra@...>
To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [t93] U.S. Congress on Islam


 
Well, if congress said so...

I suppose when the great state of Mississippi declares by a vote of its
legislature that life begins at conception it will be true in that state because
the majority rule of Mississippi is all that is required to decide matters of
cosmology. (Of course, life began before conception or there would have been
no-one around to do the conceiving.)

...Perhaps a constitutional amendment would be able to settle the nature of the
soul(s) as well. Maybe they can work out the definition of "eternity" while they
decide what the word "marriage" means, too. These people want to impose their
definitions for the word "marriage" but they aren't that worried about what
defines a "person." A corporation is a person, but a woman who has been raped is
not. A fertilized egg is a person, but a child starving in the streets is not.
Life begins with a corporate charter. It's in the Holy Babble, somewhere.

Alamantra
http://alamantra.org

----- Original Message -----
From: mm.abdulfattah
To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:16 PM
Subject: [t93] U.S. Congress on Islam

U.S. Congress on Islam

The American Congress official opinion of Islam as outlined in a concurrent
resolution by the 96th Congress (1979) honoring the 14th century of Islam. This
opinion of the American Government is hardly known by the American public.
S. Con. Res. 43
Honoring the Fourteenth Centennial of Islam.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
October 4 (legislative day, June 21), 1979
Mr. Stone submitted the following concurrent resolution; which was referred to
the Committee on Foreign Relations
October 15, 1979
Reported by Mr. Church, with an amendment to the preamble
October 16 (legislative day, October 15), 1979
Considered and agreed to
CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
Honoring the Fourteenth Centennial of Islam.
Whereas November 21, 1979, marks the fourteen hundredth anniversary of the
founding of Islam, an event which will be commemorated throughout the world,
including in the Holy Cities of Islam; and
Whereas Islam is one of the mankind's great religions in history and today,
followed by approximately eight hundred million people encompassing every major
region of the world; and
Whereas the word "Islam" derives from Abraham's willingness to accept all God's
commands, an example profoundly meaningful to all monotheistic religions; and
Whereas the "House of Islam" extended gracious hospitality to philosophy and
science in both the East and West when these scholarly disciplines were
threatened by narrowness and prejudice, thus preserving this precious heritage
for subsequent generations; and
Whereas Islam strives for a world-wide community which, in the words of one
Islamic poet-philosopher, "does not recognize the superficial differences of
race, or history, or nationality"; and
Whereas the United States and countries of the Islamic world hold in common many
benefits and values including the concept of world community, which inspired the
founding Fathers of our own country; and
Whereas international understanding and peace are strengthened by free and open
communications among nations representing various historical and religious
traditions:
Now, therefore, be it
. Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concurring),
That Islam is hereby recognized for the rich religious, scientific, cultural,
and artistic contribution it has made to mankind since its founding.
. Sec. 2. The Congress takes note of the contribution of Islam and wishes
success to the fourteenth centennial commemoration.
. Sec. 3. On the occasion of this anniversary, the Congress pledges its efforts
to achieve better understanding, reductions of tensions, and the pursuit of
improved relations with all nations of the world.
Sec. 4. The Congress requests that the President forward a copy of this
resolution to the Chief of State of each country where Islam has a significant
following and where celebrations will mark this important international event.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I thought it was all sort of amusing...What I actually censored myself from
saying went more like: "You sure are barkin' * up the wrong tree. The only
submission that goes on 'round these parts usually involves leather masks and
ball gags."

* Liber AL: II:19

Alamantra
http://alamantra.org



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Lianna Costantino
   To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 10:18 AM
   Subject: Re: [t93] U.S. Congress on Islam



   Even though the idiot who trolled this list was annoying, I love that he or
she posted because I

   really enjoyed reading your replies, Alamantra!  :o)  Very cool.

   Love, Li


   "28. O NOES, nother maff test!"

   "My darling girl, when are you going to understand that being normal is not
necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
   - Aunt Frances, in Practical Magic

   "You have not converted a man by silencing him" - John Morley

   "I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure
you realize that what you heard is not what I meant...."
   - Anonymous

   ________________________________
   From: Alamantra <alamantra@...>
   To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 10:37 AM
   Subject: Re: [t93] U.S. Congress on Islam


   Well, if congress said so...

   I suppose when the great state of Mississippi declares by a vote of its
legislature that life begins at conception it will be true in that state because
the majority rule of Mississippi is all that is required to decide matters of
cosmology. (Of course, life began before conception or there would have been
no-one around to do the conceiving.)

   ...Perhaps a constitutional amendment would be able to settle the nature of
the soul(s) as well. Maybe they can work out the definition of "eternity" while
they decide what the word "marriage" means, too. These people want to impose
their definitions for the word "marriage" but they aren't that worried about
what defines a "person." A corporation is a person, but a woman who has been
raped is not. A fertilized egg is a person, but a child starving in the streets
is not. Life begins with a corporate charter. It's in the Holy Babble,
somewhere.

   Alamantra
   http://alamantra.org

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: mm.abdulfattah
   To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:16 PM
   Subject: [t93] U.S. Congress on Islam

   U.S. Congress on Islam

   The American Congress official opinion of Islam as outlined in a concurrent
resolution by the 96th Congress (1979) honoring the 14th century of Islam. This
opinion of the American Government is hardly known by the American public.
   S. Con. Res. 43
   Honoring the Fourteenth Centennial of Islam.
   IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
   October 4 (legislative day, June 21), 1979
   Mr. Stone submitted the following concurrent resolution; which was referred to
the Committee on Foreign Relations
   October 15, 1979
   Reported by Mr. Church, with an amendment to the preamble
   October 16 (legislative day, October 15), 1979
   Considered and agreed to
   CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
   Honoring the Fourteenth Centennial of Islam.
   Whereas November 21, 1979, marks the fourteen hundredth anniversary of the
founding of Islam, an event which will be commemorated throughout the world,
including in the Holy Cities of Islam; and
   Whereas Islam is one of the mankind's great religions in history and today,
followed by approximately eight hundred million people encompassing every major
region of the world; and
   Whereas the word "Islam" derives from Abraham's willingness to accept all
God's commands, an example profoundly meaningful to all monotheistic religions;
and
   Whereas the "House of Islam" extended gracious hospitality to philosophy and
science in both the East and West when these scholarly disciplines were
threatened by narrowness and prejudice, thus preserving this precious heritage
for subsequent generations; and
   Whereas Islam strives for a world-wide community which, in the words of one
Islamic poet-philosopher, "does not recognize the superficial differences of
race, or history, or nationality"; and
   Whereas the United States and countries of the Islamic world hold in common
many benefits and values including the concept of world community, which
inspired the founding Fathers of our own country; and
   Whereas international understanding and peace are strengthened by free and
open communications among nations representing various historical and religious
traditions:
   Now, therefore, be it
   . Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concurring),
   That Islam is hereby recognized for the rich religious, scientific, cultural,
and artistic contribution it has made to mankind since its founding.
   . Sec. 2. The Congress takes note of the contribution of Islam and wishes
success to the fourteenth centennial commemoration.
   . Sec. 3. On the occasion of this anniversary, the Congress pledges its
efforts to achieve better understanding, reductions of tensions, and the pursuit
of improved relations with all nations of the world.
   Sec. 4. The Congress requests that the President forward a copy of this
resolution to the Chief of State of each country where Islam has a significant
following and where celebrations will mark this important international event.

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Work out your own salvation." is phrase from the movie, 'Dead Man,' which I
still think is a great flick.

The question that "salvation" proposes, however, is exactly what is it that
we must be saved from?
You refer to the 'Creator of the Universe' as a He. What makes you think
that It has a gender or prefers a gender? How do we know that all of this
isn't the result of what happens when an amoeba dreams?
If It is omnipotent and omniscient, why does It need to be worshipped? Since
the proposal of creating a universe is generally beyond the grasp of the
layperson, why do we even need to worry about it all? Why can't we just get
on with our lives and live them the best way we can without the need for
adding concepts like judgment and damnation etc?

Alamantra
http://alamantra.org




----- Original Message -----
From: "mm.abdulfattah" <mm.abdulfattah@...>
To: "Alamantra" <alamantra@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: [t93] What Is Islam?


"Work out your own salvation" So we have something in common! Muslims
believe that every sigle person is judged - whether by people or by God
(Allah) - according to what he or she has done. Therefore, according to what
we do (of good), we secure our own salvation. Intention plays a vital role
here, and only the one who created us can know it for sure. We believe that
this creator of the universe, with all of its magnificent aspects, is the
only one who desreves worship, no matter whether he is called "Allah" or
not, as He does exist and is worthy of such sole worship. It's like a
copyright: He created us, so we are to worship Him, alone.

>"Allâh wishes to lighten (the burden) for you, as man was created weak "

  The idea that man is some weak, helpless incapable, creature thrown into
this world doesn't jibe with the observable data. Many of the ills that
we've foisted upon this world have been done using that very argument to
discount the consequences that are bestowed with any and every action. The
argument against man-made factors contributing to climate change is founded
on this same sort of premise. "Man is not capable of having such an effect."
"Climate change is happening anyway." ...or total denial... "There is no
such thing as climate change." ...These become defacto arguments for dumping
billions and billions ...endless amounts... of toxic chemicals into our air,
water ...ecosystem... for us all to have deal with ...regardless of climate
change or global warming. These people wind up arguing for polluted air with
universal, tangible effects in exchange for man-made green pieces of paper.
It goes against the truth of  "Everything is interconnected and has an
effect on everything else."

A significant sampling of Fundigelical Christians shows that they too
embrace this concept as well as its antithesis, simultaneously: Since man is
weak and God is going to judge the world we don't have to worry about what
we do to it or what we do to one another. Life, for them, becomes just a
dress rehearsal for something called eternity that happens ...later. They
ALSO believe that man was given dominion over the Earth by YHVH (who was,
after all, originally only a small tribal god among many others) and it is
man's to do as he pleases including ...pollute and destroy it. After all,
its in their damned book and that's what grandma and grandpa believed, so it
must be true since grandma and grandpa are good, upstanding people. This
paradoxical belief system is a license to unleash greed, hubris, etc on the
planet and on our human and nonhuman neighbors. They also believe that "God
hates" ...hates gays, hates liberals, hates communists etc. etc. etc. I've
heard more than one declare that "God hates the world and has already
condemned it," in spite of the fact that the main verse touted in
Christianity begins with the words "For God so LOVED the world..." I won't
worship any God that needs to hate... means that that deity is weak and/or
psychotic ..and that makes it the Demiurge and not the true Creator.

This notion that some higher Being is going to take care of things or show
up and judge us or what have you discourages seeking the full experience of
life, responsibility, direct action, conservation of resources and energy
(Eternity is what I call "the long haul.".) We don't NEED a higher Being or
a flawed cosmology to deal with it. In fact we don't have anything to deal
with at all, since it is the natural course of things. Faith is a false
prophet. Even the Order of Assassins knew that it was action and not belief
that creates the world.

  Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The real problem with all of the Abrahamic religions as they exist today is
that they have tried to sever the "consciousness of the continuity of
existence," by isolating the human condition/experience from that of the
rest of life.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alamantra
http://alamantra.org



----- Original Message -----
From: "mm.abdulfattah" <mm.abdulfattah@...>
To: "Alamantra" <alamantra@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: U.S. Congress on Islam


Good point!
But what the congress said is only a testimony supported by actual
statistics, yet still it is not a legislation.

Islam is much "worried about what defines a "person." " Let me put "person"
in the form of "man" It is all about man: his good and welfare in all
situations. Islamic Holy Book says,
"And indeed We have honoured the Children of Adam, and We have carried them
on land and sea, and have provided them with At-Taiyibât (lawful good
things), and have preferred them above many of those We have created with a
marked preference."

"Allâh wishes to make clear (what is lawful and what is unlawful) to you,
and to show you the ways of those before you, and accept your repentance,
and Allâh is All­Knower, All­Wise."

" Allâh wishes to accept your repentance, but those who follow their lusts,
wish that you (believers) should deviate tremendously away from the Right
Path. "
"Allâh wishes to lighten (the burden) for you, as man was created weak "

Precisely!  So well said!

I also love the idea that they came up with for a TV show called "Stargate",

wherein there are ascended beings, who could also have been thoughtforms,
fed (and could have been created to begin with) by the worship of humans who
feed their their energy via worship.  A fun idea, and they really show those
faiths
who are all about proselytization by force, in all their arrogance and delusion,

for what they truly are.  Which is NOT about "caring" about the souls of others

whom they consider to be "lost" simply because they are different or have the

nerve to make their own choices freely.


 
"28. O NOES, nother maff test!"


"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that being normal is not
necessarily a virtue?  It rather denotes a lack of courage."
- Aunt Frances, in Practical Magic


"You have not converted a man by silencing him"   -  John Morley


"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you
realize that what you heard is not what I meant...."
- Anonymous


________________________________
From: Alamantra <alamantra@...>
To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [t93] What Is Islam?


 
"Work out your own salvation." is phrase from the movie, 'Dead Man,' which I
still think is a great flick.

The question that "salvation" proposes, however, is exactly what is it that
we must be saved from?
You refer to the 'Creator of the Universe' as a He. What makes you think
that It has a gender or prefers a gender? How do we know that all of this
isn't the result of what happens when an amoeba dreams?
If It is omnipotent and omniscient, why does It need to be worshipped? Since
the proposal of creating a universe is generally beyond the grasp of the
layperson, why do we even need to worry about it all? Why can't we just get
on with our lives and live them the best way we can without the need for
adding concepts like judgment and damnation etc?

Alamantra
http://alamantra.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "mm.abdulfattah" <mm.abdulfattah@...>
To: "Alamantra" <alamantra@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: [t93] What Is Islam?

"Work out your own salvation" So we have something in common! Muslims
believe that every sigle person is judged - whether by people or by God
(Allah) - according to what he or she has done. Therefore, according to what
we do (of good), we secure our own salvation. Intention plays a vital role
here, and only the one who created us can know it for sure. We believe that
this creator of the universe, with all of its magnificent aspects, is the
only one who desreves worship, no matter whether he is called "Allah" or
not, as He does exist and is worthy of such sole worship. It's like a
copyright: He created us, so we are to worship Him, alone.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Halal Spam, who'd have thought it.

On 5 November 2011 14:15, Alamantra <alamantra@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I just love it when broad group labels are applied to the thoughts of
> individuals for the purposes of propaganda and proselytizing.
>
> Alamantra
> http://alamantra.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mm.abdulfattah
> To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:16 PM
> Subject: [t93] What do Muslims think of Jesus?
>
> What do Muslims think of Jesus?
>
>
>



--
Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alamantra:
> ...when the great state of Mississippi declares by a vote of its legislature
that life begins at conception it will be true in that state....

false. consensus doesn't rule reality. that's a Hermetic or New Age conceit.

> ...Perhaps a constitutional amendment would be able to settle the nature of
the soul(s) as well.

only what may be done in relation to the cosmology of those who are governed by
it. granted that a soul is considered real, then what may be done in relation to
it, say stem cell research or abortion or whatever, could be affected by such
things. Supreme Court in the US would be sufficient.

> Maybe they can work out the definition of "eternity" while they decide what
the word "marriage" means, too.

the former is already agreed: endlessly, regardless of what may transpire at
death. the latter is a civil contract and decided already also, just not to whom
it ought apply.

> ...Life begins with a corporate charter. It's in the Holy Babble, somewhere.


it's not about life or cosmology, but who can pay you off.

o mone pad my home; moolah moolah way come

Haramullah
nagasiva@...

On 8 November 2011 06:26, Haramullah <nagasiva@...> wrote:>>
false. consensus doesn't rule reality. that's a Hermetic or New Age
conceit.
Newage (rhymes with sewage) certainly endorses stupid solipsist ideas,
as well as crypto-fascist ideas about karma and the
deserving/undeserving.

but Hermeticism? This seems an idiosyncratic usage on your part.

besides which, 'New Age Hermeticism' - isn't that basically trad Thelema? ;p

Seriously, I've pondered whether Thelema really breaks with
Hermeticism and/or Neoplatonist magical philosophy to any significant
degree for some time. Aside from some more 'scientific' strands (whose
attachment to and definition of magic gets a little sketchy) I don't
think it does. Any hypothetical exception to this has its work cut
out, though I've an inkling of one potential route.
fact: The Book of the Law's Agape/Thelema & 0=2 formulae are really
pre-empted by Iamblichus (that is, he overcame the spirit matter
dichotomy of Platonism through a formula of love; as well as supplying
a philosophical basis for magic that is mirrored by the formula of the
Eucharist).
Meanwhile the 'attach no philosophical validity' clause of Liber O is
okay from a Chaos magic perspective, but basically justifies ripping
off the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn while sidestepping the big
philosophical questions AC claimed were all answered by 'his'
Revelation. (salient example: does magic work and if so how?)
PS apologies for repeatedly not hitting the k key on accepted
ideological lines in the above paragraphs.
ALWays
Jake
http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/

50111108 e.v.

On Nov 8, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
> On 8 November 2011 06:26, Haramullah <nagasiva@...> wrote:>
>> false. consensus doesn't rule reality. that's a Hermetic or New Age
>> conceit.

> Newage (rhymes with sewage) certainly endorses stupid solipsist ideas,
> as well as crypto-fascist ideas about karma and the
> deserving/undeserving.

prevalent. by the way, you and I have a different regard for New Agers.
I found a great deal of beauty and fun in New Age social contexts. I did
not and could not remain in them on account of my Satanic nature, but
alike to my inability to remain in the Neopagan religious culture, this did
not stop me from loving very many of them to this day. :D

> but Hermeticism? This seems an idiosyncratic usage on your part.
> besides which, 'New Age Hermeticism' - isn't that basically trad Thelema? ;p

perhaps. I've been noticing references from Thelemic/Hermetic sources which
strike me as CYOR (Create Your Own Reality), OBGM (One Big God Mind),
and Neo-Neo-Platonic (Emanationism with the twist of 'You don't realize how
big your head is!' implications). when i ask about them those who are promoting
them don't always have ready answers to my challenges on them, such as how
they know essentialism is accurate, why they find it valuable to start with such
cosmologies in their working practices, etc.

I might be looking at 'fringe Hermeticism', naturally. some of it is
*definitely*
'trad Thelema' in character, and of course the milieu varies considerably as
i encounter it. you and i are probably not 'trad'. I didn't think that was
really
too funny, sadly.

> Seriously, I've pondered whether Thelema really breaks with
> Hermeticism and/or Neoplatonist magical philosophy to any significant
> degree for some time.

a tough nut to crack because you can approach it from sociological (and
therefore thought-trend-mapping) and traditional (exegetical founding in
critical thought) vectors. you and i have examined these variations many
times in exchanges here and elsewhere. the "really" part in your text
above leverages the result of this evaluation.

> Aside from some more 'scientific' strands (whose
> attachment to and definition of magic gets a little sketchy) I don't
> think it does. Any hypothetical exception to this has its work cut
> out, though I've an inkling of one potential route.

I'll follow you and and see if i can come up with any alternatives. your
grounding in Hermetic basics is far more solid than my own, since i've
not touched a corpus in decades (thus my *or New Age* above, and
complicated by my interaction with those who attest to Hermetic style).

> fact: The Book of the Law's Agape/Thelema & 0=2 formulae are really
> pre-empted by Iamblichus (that is, he overcame the spirit matter
> dichotomy of Platonism through a formula of love; as well as supplying
> a philosophical basis for magic that is mirrored by the formula of the
> Eucharist).

well, it's nice that he may have overcome that dichotomy, but i am not
aware that his exposition is a required nondual dogma. quite the
contrary, most post-Christian "Neo-Platonist" idealists that i've
encountered were HARD bitten by spirit-matter dualism. they were
almost without exception convinced of post-mortem soul survival,
in some cases with notions of building that soul during life while their
ideas may have been fortified with 4-d Flatlander support.

I wouldn't mention it except that i had to deconstruct this with just
about everybody around me from my preferred nondual premise,
seeking to understand where they situated themselves and why.
this has included some good number of my order brothers and
sisters (more than one order) who sought to conscript my mind
to their ideology as a dogma, rather than to take a less cultic and
more rational approach to cosmological construction -- no doubt
this was how they were inculcated and figured everyone should be.

your knowledge about the basics will probably not exactly jibe with
my commentary here on sociology (which has been my greater focus
after some exposure to many of these views in review of some portion
of the philosophic corpus of whatever culture drew me, during my
youth or later when enjoying tasty repastes elsewhen).

> Meanwhile the 'attach no philosophical validity' clause of Liber O is
> okay from a Chaos magic perspective,

I'm sorry, but i place such minimal emphasis on Crowley and ignored
some of the basics including Liber O to the degree it was emphasized
and served no practical purpose that i will need to review that again. I
*am* familiar with several places where Crowley does advocate this
philosophic start-point, and had already engaged it by the time that
i began encountering Hermetics and their species in the field, as it were.

> but basically justifies ripping
> off the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn while sidestepping the big
> philosophical questions AC claimed were all answered by 'his'
> Revelation.

LOL - this is why in places i have tried to represent to those with whom i've
discussed such matters that the Beast's exposition varies and is at points
somewhat inconsistent. there is a matter of Class and condition from which
to explicate this inconsistency, but i am not yet convinced of its overall
coherent spectrum. are you? that is, do you think we can map out the
Beast's development and emphasis and find he's internally consistent?

> (salient example: does magic work and if so how?)

that's too tough a question for me to answer as yet other than to say that
i have come to the conclusion that it is VALUABLE TO ME TO PRESUME
THAT MY MAGICAL ACTIVITY IS WORTHWHILE. I'll keep watching for
how and why as time wears on. right now my focus is resolutely on the
*how convention/tradition explains the symbolic or material language
of its function, and who proclaims any part of this is unimportant*?

I see this, btw, as solidly parallel (and overlapping) to how it is that
religion "works" and why. there are simply too many vying contenders
for their cult or their anti-theistic, anti-cultic goals to pass up a continuing
examination of what religion does and what leads to this result. it surely
doesn't help that i involve myself with both ends of the religious spectrum
as far as my resolution to this (same with magic), but dammit i see that
there are problems with how both ends are handling their explorations.

> PS apologies for repeatedly not hitting the k key on accepted
> ideological lines in the above paragraphs.

I reserve that for the reference to the branded Magick of the Beast.

a delight to continue exchanges here with those such as are present.

nigris (333)
nagasiva@...

On 8 November 2011 23:07, nagasiva yronwode <nagasiva@...> wrote:
> 50111108 e.v.
>
> On Nov 8, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
> > On 8 November 2011 06:26, Haramullah <nagasiva@...> wrote:>
> >> false. consensus doesn't rule reality. that's a Hermetic or New Age
> >> conceit.
>
> > Newage (rhymes with sewage) certainly endorses stupid solipsist ideas,
> > as well as crypto-fascist ideas about karma and the
> > deserving/undeserving.
>
> prevalent. by the way, you and I have a different regard for New Agers.
> I found a great deal of beauty and fun in New Age social contexts. I did
> not and could not remain in them on account of my Satanic nature, but
> alike to my inability to remain in the Neopagan religious culture, this did
> not stop me from loving very many of them to this day. :D

there are some pluses: old colonels getting into alternative medicine;
a boost for genuinely esoteric studies like acupuncture; easy access
to some magical requisites etc.. I find the neopagans a little
formulaic and oddly biased against the major pagan culture
(Greco-Roman, especially Roman) which is oddly akin to the
Evangelicals rejection of all things Hellenic. The attendant 'Mystical
Nationalism' also has obvious negatives attached, although perhaps
less conspicuous in American circles.


> > but Hermeticism? This seems an idiosyncratic usage on your part.
> > besides which, 'New Age Hermeticism' - isn't that basically trad Thelema? ;p
>
> perhaps. I've been noticing references from Thelemic/Hermetic sources which
> strike me as CYOR (Create Your Own Reality), OBGM (One Big God Mind),
> and Neo-Neo-Platonic (Emanationism with the twist of 'You don't realize how
> big your head is!' implications). when i ask about them those who are
promoting
> them don't always have ready answers to my challenges on them, such as how
> they know essentialism is accurate, why they find it valuable to start with
such
> cosmologies in their working practices, etc.
>

heh, my side of the pond (and mirrored in US occult publications)
there is precious little recognition of Neoplatonist influence on
Western magic. The historical facts are concealed behind the 'Crusty
old myth', ie  Kabbalah as *the* foundation of Western magic.

re your challenges, there is an apparent residue of essentialism in my
own preferred models. That it is only apparent and superficial is
shown by the following.
The 'perfect' or 'pre-existent' world (roughly the world of Forms) has
a periodic *disruptive* effect on the 'manifest' world. It is thus
productive of change rather than maintaining or restoring a supposed
ideal status quo. This changes the character of things quite
drastically, despite superficial resemblances to past emanationist
schemas.
So too I do not accept the 'One' as source of all and goal of some
eventual return. Note that Crowley also questioned this in an obscure
passage quoted in the Motta Commentaries but omitted elsewhere.
Rejection of the Pleroma is probably one of the most significant
elements of Thelemic cosmology, if it were acknowledged and further
investigated/followed up.

> I might be looking at 'fringe Hermeticism', naturally. some of it is
*definitely*
> 'trad Thelema' in character, and of course the milieu varies considerably as
> i encounter it. you and i are probably not 'trad'. I didn't think that was
really
> too funny, sadly.

I'm ecumenical in accepting wholehearted occultism of many kinds as
essentially positive (that is, culturally significant in various ways,
and a corrective to blind materialism). Thus I can be trad, but left
to my own devices am definitely not.

Why I am not requires a fuller account of my relationship with
Platonism - which can be deferred ;D

> > Seriously, I've pondered whether Thelema really breaks with
> > Hermeticism and/or Neoplatonist magical philosophy to any significant
> > degree for some time.
>
> a tough nut to crack because you can approach it from sociological (and
> therefore thought-trend-mapping) and traditional (exegetical founding in
> critical thought) vectors. you and i have examined these variations many
> times in exchanges here and elsewhere. the "really" part in your text
> above leverages the result of this evaluation.

;D some leverage is probably necessary, given that the 'low Platonism'
of Western magic is often not consciously acknowledged. It is thus
fairly difficult to cure!

> > Aside from some more 'scientific' strands (whose
> > attachment to and definition of magic gets a little sketchy) I don't
> > think it does. Any hypothetical exception to this has its work cut
> > out, though I've an inkling of one potential route.
>
> I'll follow you and and see if i can come up with any alternatives. your
> grounding in Hermetic basics is far more solid than my own, since i've
> not touched a corpus in decades (thus my *or New Age* above, and
> complicated by my interaction with those who attest to Hermetic style).

My strategy is to reach behind/beneath the 'Alexandrian synthesis' to
older strata of a very different character. This can only be partial,
since for one thing we must adapt to new conditions. It must also be
partly mythological rather than historical, but this is an acceptable
and even potentially useful 'restriction'.
For those who require a term for this, which might also elucidate my
work, I recommend 'pre-Orphic' as compared with pre-Socratic. The
latter is of course philosophical (although also partaking in mythic
rather than historic models) while 'pre-Orphic' implies magical and
ritualistic  alternatives.
One might see this as a rigourous deepening of 'Urban Primitivism' ;D

> > fact: The Book of the Law's Agape/Thelema & 0=2 formulae are really
> > pre-empted by Iamblichus (that is, he overcame the spirit matter
> > dichotomy of Platonism through a formula of love; as well as supplying
> > a philosophical basis for magic that is mirrored by the formula of the
> > Eucharist).
>
> well, it's nice that he may have overcome that dichotomy, but i am not
> aware that his exposition is a required nondual dogma. quite the
> contrary, most post-Christian "Neo-Platonist" idealists that i've
> encountered were HARD bitten by spirit-matter dualism. they were
> almost without exception convinced of post-mortem soul survival,
> in some cases with notions of building that soul during life while their
> ideas may have been fortified with 4-d Flatlander support.

that's quite a list of factors. I agree that the dichotomy is very
much extant to this day - hence perhaps the relevance of both Thelema
and a reappraisal of Iamblichus.

Regarding the latter of the two, its a fact that Western magic (in the
grimoire cast) tries to have it both ways.
There is a 'mainstream Christian' view of the spirits as Satanic, but
lacking the divinely ordained limits on their work or casting the
results as illusory that is usually consistent with this view.
Simultaneously - and utterly contradictory - they are viewed as
daimones with skills specific to their particular natures unrestricted
by God. This latter part of the picture, and the hierarchical details,
are derived lock, stock and barrel from Hellenism and Iamblichus in
particular.

re post mortem survival, of course this is not necessarily Platonic
(my basic premise is that the philosophers reinterpreted older ideas,
often distorting them in the process). There is in fact no special
reason why 'pre-Orphic' magic (or 'Greek Shamanism') should reject the
proposition, but it would certainly see and deal with it differently.

> > Meanwhile the 'attach no philosophical validity' clause of Liber O is
> > okay from a Chaos magic perspective,
>
> I'm sorry, but i place such minimal emphasis on Crowley and ignored
> some of the basics including Liber O to the degree it was emphasized
> and served no practical purpose that i will need to review that again. I
> *am* familiar with several places where Crowley does advocate this
> philosophic start-point, and had already engaged it by the time that
> i began encountering Hermetics and their species in the field, as it were.

no appy polly logies required. OTOH the fact that Liber O is
essentially a grimoire has apparently eluded many who value it. Over
emphasis of doing things 'on the square' rather than 'in a circle'
likely explains why.

> > but basically justifies ripping
> > off the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn while sidestepping the big
> > philosophical questions AC claimed were all answered by 'his'
> > Revelation.
>
> LOL - this is why in places i have tried to represent to those with whom i've
> discussed such matters that the Beast's exposition varies and is at points
> somewhat inconsistent. there is a matter of Class and condition from which
> to explicate this inconsistency, but i am not yet convinced of its overall
> coherent spectrum. are you? that is, do you think we can map out the
> Beast's development and emphasis and find he's internally consistent?

certainly not. Even disregarding his flights of erudition and
'ecumenical' tangents.

I particularly dislike the modern tendency to sift his contradictions
in favour of the examples closest to 1947. For me 1907 is a more
significant point, without disregarding the 40 years following.
At that point he had an intention - consistent with injunctions in AL
- to overhaul the GD on Thelemic lines rather than merely pillage it
as it was. Abandoning this project left us with many problems, most of
which have rarely been engaged with to any major extent. Such
post-Crowley efforts as apparently contradict this appraisal were
partial and premature IMO.
There are other contradictory elements which are highlighted (and
potentially resolved) from this perspective. A key example is how the
A.'.A.'. functioned at the time (as a body of people, rather than a
literary construct - a flesh and blood experimental 'coven' rather
than a Constitution without historical foundations and/or practical
precedents).

<remainder snipped to keep from over burdening ourselves and others,
we can always come back to other elements)

ALWays

Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/

On 8 November 2011 23:07, nagasiva yronwode <nagasiva@...> wrote:
>
>
> > (salient example: does magic work and if so how?)
>
> that's too tough a question for me to answer as yet other than to say that
> i have come to the conclusion that it is VALUABLE TO ME TO PRESUME
> THAT MY MAGICAL ACTIVITY IS WORTHWHILE. I'll keep watching for
> how and why as time wears on. right now my focus is resolutely on the
> *how convention/tradition explains the symbolic or material language
> of its function, and who proclaims any part of this is unimportant*?

LOL - its worth having a stab at, indeed its one of the most important
questions modern occultism has to address (if it can be intelligent
and honest enough to do so!)

in my view the answer has to be fairly complex or multi-sided.
Certainly your capitalised response is valid and a good place to
start. So too the two-part query in quotation marks is valid and
important. Modern academia is addressing the first part, perhaps
rather better than occultism is. The second part has to take account
of the importance of tradition &/or prevalence of conservatism in
occultism; that is, occultists have historically been traditionalist
or conservative so it is likely a feature.

Getting on to the question, does magic work (or, is it worthwhile)?

My stance is that results oriented magic is the most important (as
compared to magic aimed purely at spiritual development, viewed as
distinct from result oriented approaches - although of course
spiritual development can be viewed as one result among many).

It is important whether or not results are consistent, for a variety
of reasons. One of the principal reasons is of course that it is the
dominant form historically.

A simplistic approach - ie does results magic produce results
consistently? - has major shortcomings. Whether or not results magic
is worthwhile does not in fact depend on this aspect of the question.
For example disregarding magic as a placebo on the basis of whether
results are consistent does not address whether it is worthwhile and
why.

To the point then, my personal preference, why I deem results magic
the most interesting and important, is that that what makes magic
'worthwhile' for me is most consistently encountered in this sphere.
The experience of encountering spirits and working with them is one of
the principal 'worthwhile' aspects, and generally absent from the
'spiritual development' aspect of things. To clarify: say in the
performance of a spell where the complicity of spirits is both
understood and directly experienced.

It is in this sphere, disregarding ontological issues, that the
experiences I value occur. So too - for me at least - understanding of
ancient and more recent approaches is most enhanced by this sphere of
action. I would hazard also that understanding of how and why magic
works, and why it does not always do so, may be elucidated by
experience in the same area.

> I see this, btw, as solidly parallel (and overlapping) to how it is that
> religion "works" and why. there are simply too many vying contenders
> for their cult or their anti-theistic, anti-cultic goals to pass up a
continuing
> examination of what religion does and what leads to this result. it surely
> doesn't help that i involve myself with both ends of the religious spectrum
> as far as my resolution to this (same with magic), but dammit i see that
> there are problems with how both ends are handling their explorations.

this reminds me of my attachment to Ramsey Dukes quadripolar
Art/Religion/Science/Magic model. Our times are of course over
influenced by Scientific thinking, 'does magic work' is too readily
contrasted with how Science works.
Whereas 'does Art work?' is unlikely to be contrasted with Scientific
results. Interestingly Art primarily 'works' for the artist, with or
without external approval, although of course modern art also - one
might say *only* - works for the market and the critics! ;P

There are some interesting scientific answers to 'does religion work
and how?' - there are certainly religious types who tend to be happier
and live longer than atheists. So something about religion is good for
humans and likely intrinsic (so that in abandoning it we are behaving
unnaturally; denying not god but ourselves). It seems likely to me
that what makes magic worthwhile may be sought in a similar sphere.

ALWays

Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/

Haramullah:
>> ...when the great state of Mississippi declares by a vote of its legislature
that life begins at conception it will be true in that state....

>false. consensus doesn't rule reality. that's a Hermetic or New Age conceit.


My comment was to be taken as a slight contempt for the notion that matters
based on of theological opinion be rendered as part of the "law of the land," be
it local "blue laws," or State of Mississippi or the United States. I am very
pleased that the people of Mississippi rejected the proposed constitutional
update that sought to define personhood as a fertilized egg.
However, since you raise the point, it would depend on what one is describing by
the term "reality." Consensus reality does define its own conditions and has a
symbiotic effect with subjective personal reality. Two thousand years of bible
thumping (regardless of the particular bible) has affected perceptions,
dispositions, beliefs etc ...regardless of the "truth" or lack thereof to be
found in its contents.


Jake Stratton-Kent:
>Seriously, I've pondered whether Thelema really breaks with
Hermeticism and/or Neoplatonist magical philosophy to any significant
degree for some time.

I don't think that it does. I think it fulfills it.
I'm into the old-school Thelema ...which is Pantagruelism, I suppose.
..Crowley's antecedent being the "Thelema" of Rabelais. Many of the Crowley
school reject this, but I don't. I think that it adds great aesthetic depth and
context. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that it is the proper foundation
for understanding the social import of Thelema, including Crowley's
contributions. In this sense, Thelema is absolutely connected to the
Platonic-Hermetic tradition. For those interested in following these Rabelaisian
weave, I recommend the book: "Rabelaisian Dialectic and the Platonic-Hermetic
Tradition" by G. Mallary Masters. Chock full of all kinds of interesting
tidbits:

"In the first two books Rabelais satirizes the superstitious abuses of the
Cabala in Picrocholine war. The Tiers Livre shows similar treatment in the
satire of the caballe monastique (TL/15) and the demonology of Her Trippa
(TL/25). But in several references in the first three books Rabelais anticipates
the importance of the Cabala in the last two books. Although the Quart Livre and
Cinquiesme Livre both show Rabalais's increased use of Hebrew terms, the
mysteries of the wine and sex inspired by Jewish mysticism are also present in
the earlier books. The position of woman as arbiter of taste in Theleme
(G/55-57) anticipates Rabelais's acceptance of woman as the means of salvation
of man and the cosmos. His gradual development of the theme is seen in the
consultation with the Sibylle (TL/16-18), in the tale of the Papefiguiere
(QL/46), and in Entelechie (CL/19-25). The mystery of sex reaches its fullest
meaning in the "mysticism" of the Dive Bouteille (CL/42-47). There, in
combination with the symbolism of the wine, suggested by Noah, Rabelais's
adaptation of Shekinah as the manifestation of Wisdom and as the embodiment of
Womanhood serves as the means to understanding his mysticism and the relation of
the two mysteries symbolized by the Beuveurs and Verolez of the "Prologue" to
Gargantua. The last episode also shows the relationship of the Cabala to
Hermetism, for in enumerating the prisci theologi and repeating Hermetic
metaphor of the sphere, Rabelais points to the unity of Platonism and Hermetism
throughout the work. Thus, it is clear that there is a continuity in Rabelais's
use of the Hermetic tradition throughout the five books." p.105

Liber Al II:3. In the sphere I am everywhere the centre, as she, the
circumference, is nowhere found.

A restatement of the common Hermetic axiom from Paracelsus to Pascal to Levi.

Alamantra
http://alamantra.org




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 9 November 2011 16:33, Alamantra <alamantra@...> wrote:
> Jake Stratton-Kent:
> >Seriously, I've pondered whether Thelema really breaks with
> Hermeticism and/or Neoplatonist magical philosophy to any significant
> degree for some time.
>
> I don't think that it does. I think it fulfills it.

I'll try and make this more than a 'me too' post, but for possibly not
dissimilar reasons the above is my inclination also. I'm assuming also
that both provide a non-dualistic and 'hedonistic'/Dionysian 'out' of
the primary pitfalls of Platonism.

> I'm into the old-school Thelema ...which is Pantagruelism, I suppose.
..Crowley's antecedent being the "Thelema" of Rabelais. Many of the Crowley
school reject this, but I don't. I think that it adds great aesthetic depth and
context.

Not my special area, but there is no real problem with seeing Rabelais
as an esoteric thinker, merely a little less blatant than the highly
influential Abbe de Villars in his use of 'fiction'.

> the book: "Rabelaisian Dialectic and the Platonic-Hermetic Tradition" by G.
Mallary Masters. Chock full of all kinds of interesting tidbits:
>

The quotation you supply is substantial food for thought and
highlights the Rabelaisian connections (or potential fusion of the
'two Thelemas') rather well.
An endorsement from me is not necessarily grist to your mill of course ! :)

<snippage>

> Liber Al II:3. In the sphere I am everywhere the centre, as she, the
circumference, is nowhere found.
>
> A restatement of the common Hermetic axiom from Paracelsus to Pascal to Levi.

agreed, though to my chagrin the attribution of the earlier form of
the quotation to Empedocles is apparently unsubstantiated.

ALWays

Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/

Thelema Frater 333 & Frater Jake,



Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.



Probably the most "enlightening" theory of magic I've heard lately, is based
on the idea; we not only create our own personal reality, according to our
accepted set of beliefs, tinted by our thoughts, imprinted by our emotions,
impressed & manifested through our feeling, visualizations, meditation -
magickal invokations, etal. we also create mass reality on earth & the
cosmos the same way, at the same time - according to our thoughts and
emotions, in combination, conjunction with mass beliefs, manifesting through
feeling, visualizations, meditation - religions invocationals, wars,
poverty, injustice, tyranny - demonic possession, saints & angels, etal.



Certain people knew this hundreds, probably thousands of years ago.  They
also knew the power of the written word, and torture, fear, guilt,
intimidation, bribery, deceit, lust, greed, lack & gold.  Most importantly
they knew the Power of Faith in a Supreme Creator, a Loving Omnipotent
Protector, and the Promise of Eternal Life (in fear of death & Hell)
Salvation, Forgiveness of Sin - so they wrote the Bible, the Koran, Talmud,
Torah, the Vedanta - all Holy Text to basically follow the same story line,
verifying each step all along the way through the desert, directly into the
jaws of the beast, more popularly known as the "Abomination of Desolation" =
(294) = "To go on to the holier place" - "Armageddon" = (140) = "Sorrows of
pain" - EQ Liber AL.



Definitely over the top example of "Causing matter to conform to Will".
Obviously a brilliant plan; either the work of some sub genius species with
incredibly enormous intelligence, or some sub genius tribe or other with
some out of this world incredible GPS - "Arc of the Covenant" something or
other.



Makes sense to me; they invented it all, imprinted it into the minds &
hearts of man, into the world & into our lives.  They instilled, implanted,
indoctrinated, brainwashed their vision into our sight.  Their vision formed
our "reality".



Some time ago I started wondering, WHY are we suddenly living Biblical
Prophecy??  It blew my mind!  This answers my question.  I can't think of
any other plausible explanation & I've really tried.  Care to comment?



333?  If you don't mind; would you tell me what it is about your "Satanic
nature", that you "could not remain in the Neopagan religious culture"?



93, 44, 718



Soror Facebook













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I don't think that it does. I think it fulfills it.
> I'm into the old-school Thelema ...which is Pantagruelism, I suppose.
> ..Crowley's antecedent being the "Thelema" of Rabelais. Many of the Crowley
> school reject this, but I don't. I think that it adds great aesthetic depth
> and context. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that it is the proper
> foundation for understanding the social import of Thelema, including
> Crowley's contributions. In this sense, Thelema is absolutely connected to
> the Platonic-Hermetic tradition. For those interested in following these
> Rabelaisian weave, I recommend the book: "Rabelaisian Dialectic and the
> Platonic-Hermetic Tradition" by G. Mallary Masters. Chock full of all kinds
> of interesting tidbits:
>
> "In the first two books Rabelais satirizes the superstitious abuses of the
> Cabala in Picrocholine war. The Tiers Livre shows similar treatment in the
> satire of the caballe monastique (TL/15) and the demonology of Her Trippa
> (TL/25). But in several references in the first three books Rabelais
> anticipates the importance of the Cabala in the last two books. Although
> the Quart Livre and Cinquiesme Livre both show Rabalais's increased use of
> Hebrew terms, the mysteries of the wine and sex inspired by Jewish
> mysticism are also present in the earlier books. The position of woman as
> arbiter of taste in Theleme (G/55-57) anticipates Rabelais's acceptance of
> woman as the means of salvation of man and the cosmos. His gradual
> development of the theme is seen in the consultation with the Sibylle
> (TL/16-18), in the tale of the Papefiguiere (QL/46), and in Entelechie
> (CL/19-25). The mystery of sex reaches its fullest meaning in the
> "mysticism" of the Dive Bouteille (CL/42-47). There, in combination with
> the symbolism of the wine, suggested by Noah, Rabelais's adaptation of
> Shekinah as the manifestation of Wisdom and as the embodiment of Womanhood
> serves as the means to understanding his mysticism and the relation of the
> two mysteries symbolized by the Beuveurs and Verolez of the "Prologue" to
> Gargantua. The last episode also shows the relationship of the Cabala to
> Hermetism, for in enumerating the prisci theologi and repeating Hermetic
> metaphor of the sphere, Rabelais points to the unity of Platonism and
> Hermetism throughout the work. Thus, it is clear that there is a continuity
> in Rabelais's use of the Hermetic tradition throughout the five books."
> p.105
>
> Liber Al II:3. In the sphere I am everywhere the centre, as she, the
> circumference, is nowhere found.
>
> A restatement of the common Hermetic axiom from Paracelsus to Pascal to
> Levi.
>
> Alamantra
> http://alamantra.org

Sounds like some of the claims of the Hellfire Club guy. For al I know,
he's onto something or reporting something that he received from someone
else, the idea being that there was a central ritual involving the Holy
Bottle of Rabelais, itself a parody of the Holy Grail, in the Hellfire
Clubs. If anything, it's an interesting recreation.

John M.

{edit to cogency and stop top-posting please, then i can set you non-moderated.
thanks. -333]

Care Fr. Alamantra,

you wrote:
> My comment was to be taken as a slight contempt for the notion that matters
based on of theological opinion be rendered as part of the "law of the land," be
it local "blue laws," or State of Mississippi or the United States.

of course.

> I am very pleased that the people of Mississippi rejected the proposed
constitutional update that sought to define personhood as a fertilized egg.

as am i.

> However, since you raise the point, it would depend on what one is describing
by the term "reality."

I enjoy attempting to hold it to strict standards and letting other things fend
for themselves. perception,
for example, and social agreement ought be

> Consensus reality does define its own conditions and has a symbiotic effect
with subjective personal reality.

insofar as one may describe it this way (as 'a reality'), sure. there's
solipsistic confusion fallout from this.

> Two thousand years of bible thumping (regardless of the particular bible) has
affected perceptions, dispositions, beliefs etc ...regardless of the "truth" or
lack thereof to be found in its contents.

with this i of course agree. there is far more here than ordinarily understood
as affect besides.

> Jake Stratton-Kent:
>> Seriously, I've pondered whether Thelema really breaks with
>> Hermeticism and/or Neoplatonist magical philosophy to any significant
>> degree for some time.

> I don't think that it does. I think it fulfills it.

I really appreciate your evaluation and analysis here.

> I'm into the old-school Thelema ...which is Pantagruelism, I suppose.
..Crowley's antecedent being the "Thelema" of Rabelais.

I would like to underscore this and respectfully suggest that this isn't the
only contributory to the Master's exposition of the Law. New Thought in its most
empowering valence features aspects of this, and it should be seen as a
contextual motivator for the Beast's magical and volitional theoretic, as well
as influencing his ceremonial variations.

> Many of the Crowley school reject this, but I don't.

I've never heard a convincing refutation. you and our dear departed Fr. Maroney
were the most vibrant and convincing supporters of this premise, and i applauded
and continue to applaud you for it. more attention needs to be paid to the
rudiments in satire, as well as to Sir Walter Besant (and James Rice), and their
like.

> I think that it adds great aesthetic depth and context. In fact, there is no
doubt in my mind that it is the proper foundation for understanding the social
import of Thelema, including Crowley's contributions. In this sense, Thelema is
absolutely connected to the Platonic-Hermetic tradition. For those interested in
following these Rabelaisian weave, I recommend the book: "Rabelaisian Dialectic
and the Platonic-Hermetic Tradition" by G. Mallary Masters. Chock full of all
kinds of interesting tidbits:
>
> "In the first two books Rabelais satirizes the superstitious abuses of the
Cabala in Picrocholine war. The Tiers Livre shows similar treatment in the
satire of the caballe monastique (TL/15) and the demonology of Her Trippa
(TL/25). But in several references in the first three books Rabelais anticipates
the importance of the Cabala in the last two books. Although the Quart Livre and
Cinquiesme Livre both show Rabalais's increased use of Hebrew terms, the
mysteries of the wine and sex inspired by Jewish mysticism are also present in
the earlier books. The position of woman as arbiter of taste in Theleme
(G/55-57) anticipates Rabelais's acceptance of woman as the means of salvation
of man and the cosmos. His gradual development of the theme is seen in the
consultation with the Sibylle (TL/16-18), in the tale of the Papefiguiere
(QL/46), and in Entelechie (CL/19-25). The mystery of sex reaches its fullest
meaning in the "mysticism" of the Dive Bouteille (CL/42-47). There, in
combination with the symbolism of the wine, suggested by Noah, Rabelais's
adaptation of Shekinah as the manifestation of Wisdom and as the embodiment of
Womanhood serves as the means to understanding his mysticism and the relation of
the two mysteries symbolized by the Beuveurs and Verolez of the "Prologue" to
Gargantua. The last episode also shows the relationship of the Cabala to
Hermetism, for in enumerating the prisci theologi and repeating Hermetic
metaphor of the sphere, Rabelais points to the unity of Platonism and Hermetism
throughout the work. Thus, it is clear that there is a continuity in Rabelais's
use of the Hermetic tradition throughout the five books." p.105

in further reflection of Rabelaisian satire, what common target (if there is
one) might there be for it? is it always the establishment, or is my perception
accurate that there were variable targets inclusive of fringe mysticism?

> Liber Al II:3. In the sphere I am everywhere the centre, as she, the
circumference, is nowhere found.
> A restatement of the common Hermetic axiom from Paracelsus to Pascal to Levi.

and insofar as Levi was reincarnated in Edward Alexander and he was the conduit
for this scripture, we may rest assured that the metaphysical alembic enabled a
throughput. I presume you would not wish to ascribe to all of these individuals
a worship of Hadit or the Crowleyan Lawbook's trinity.

nigris (333)
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