thelema93-l : Messages : 17152-17181 of 19926

First, I want to correct and clarify my previous remarks about Futhark
(runes) and WWII (Crowley's relationship with Hitler). I had mentioned
previously in my discussion/questions regarding the Futhark runes that
Crowley "eagerly took meetings with Hitler," who, as we know, used the
Runes as part of his whole campaign of racist religious-political
system. Since then, I was asked where I got this information. I
attempted to explain twice that it came from a John Symonds book and
provided a quote. As I was providing the quote, I attempted to explain
that I had forgotten that Symonds was a known slanderer and liar and
therefore the quote was meaningless. However, since I never provided a
proper citation, none of these messages got through. The moderators
were wise enough to ask for a specific citation (book and page
number), since anyone can come up with any old lie and claim it's true
(as Symonds apparently did).

So, now to clarify...

I actually don't have the Symonds book, unfortunately. I believe it is
supposed to be a quote from his book "The Great Beast." I got the
quote about Crowley 'eagerly taking meetings with Hitler' from here:
http://www.illuminati-news.com/crowley_hitler.htm

Of course, the URL would give away that I shouldn't be looking for
proper information about Crowley here, but for whatever reason, I
stumbled on the page a few months ago and brought it up during a
discussion of WWII on heruraha.net. There is a man there who is a good
one to ask about anything and he has had access to most everything
Crowley ever wrote, so I asked him about it. From what he said, there
seemed to be somewhat of a fairly verifiable close proximity of
Crowley and Hitler, at least, and that is what I had remembered most
about the discussion. For instance, Crowley's aquaintances had met
Hitler and Crowley had met some of Hitler's officers, but as far as
Crowley and Hitler actually meeting face-to-face, there is no evidence
to suggest it. Also, he didn't necessarily disbelieve what Symonds
reports Crowley remarking; he just seemed to indicate that even if
Crowley DID say these things, there was most likely an explanation
which Symonds conveniently left out (or was possibly too stupid to
comprehend). But, with a known slanderer like Symonds being the only
source to confirm or deny such a quote, and with no indication
anywhere else that Crowley took ANY meetings with Hitler, there is no
need to further consider the words of a known liar and slanderer.

Now, as for Futhark, specifically, there is a rune called Eihwaz,
which I am not the only one to have noticed bears a striking
resemblance to Aiwaz, since my initial post was a reponse to a
previous list post in which someone asked, "So, is Aiwaz really
Eihwaz?" Alternate forms of the rune look rather like the peace sign
of the 60s, which was the dawning of the New Aeon it seems. An author
named Jan Fries has taken a very Thelemic attitude toward the Runes.
If Crowley was so against the attitudes and morals of the Abrahamic
religions, it does seem logical that the Rune culture, notoriously
self-reliant, bold and people-based, WILL power-based, and absolutely
Heathen and Anti-Christ would make a natural "fit" for Crowley's
vision of Thelema. After all, he mixed everything that was available
at his time to the best of his knowledge and experience.

However, since then, since I just recently found out "Eihwaz" is from
a reconstructed proto-Germanic language and not authentic. When I
mentioned this to one of the moderators here, he said:

# "like Hadit? exhibit 666? unedited scripture?
# all very excellent topic focus in-list should
# you desire to broach them."

These are some very interesting points about Hadit and the 666
exhibit. I guess maybe I was vaguely thinking along these lines
initially and lost track of it... Aiwaz was a master manipulator and
he DID seem to indicate the birthing of the New Aeon would be
bloody... and both WWII and the 60's could be considered the "bloody
beginnings."

What do you think?

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#17153

From: "threefold31" <threefold31@...>
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:02 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] Thelema, OTO, and Racism

threefold31

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, Bill Heidrick <heidrick@...>
wrote:
>
> 93,
>
> At 12:11 PM 7/6/06 -0400, Jack in the Green <Jackbean1@...> wrote:
>
> >Just out of curiosity, with the race issue being discussed.
> >Did Crowley, or the OTO for that matter, have any black
> >members during the time of the Beast?
>
> I don't know, but it's likely.> 93 93/93
> Bill
>


Dwtw

Likely? That's pretty much a non-answer.

But a better question would be,
how many black members of the OTO are there today?

Litlluw

RLG

#17154

From: "frater_mp" <forwardmarch@...>
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:38 pm
Subject: Thelema and Buddhism / Bon Po

frater_mp

I was just bought a Tibetan Phurpa (3-edged dagger) based on how
amazingly cool the symbolism behind it is. It seems perfect for the
LBRP except that it is from a different tradition.

I Googled around and it seems at least a few other Western Ceremonial
types are using them.

I'm in the process of building my altar, so that got me thinking about
this stuff.

I suppose it is most common to have a Stele of Revealing in your house
and little offerings of cakes of light. But, Thelema seems like it
could/should be very personal; after all, that's how Crowley came up
with his ideas. He reinterpreted other source material. Some very
knowledgeable Thelemites I know aren't all that thrilled with some of
the pseudo-Egyptian names Crowley attributed to his concepts. It was
only from them, that I ever began to question these ideas, since my
knowledge of Egyptian comes mainly from Crowley and Budge, both of
which are what scholars would call "New Age b.s." most likely.
(Incidentally, this idea goes well with my previous posts about
Futhark being a good "fit" for Thelema).

Supposedly, the altar should have some image on it that represents the
divine where you can make an offering of flowers or fruit. So, I got
thinking: (1) Reminds me of what Jerry Cornelius said in "Aleister
Crowley & The Ouija Board" about feeding Elementals flowers or fruit,
(2) What Nancy B. Watson said in "Practicing Solitary Magic" about the
inevitability of the magician to develop a relationship with 4
invisible friends known as Elementals, (3) As I've always liked the
Biblical idea of "no engraven images" (ie. the point is to realize
God's essential nothing-everythingness of which everything else is
made) and I don't like the idea of having to feed some spiritual
critter flowers and fruit or fear his wrath, I wondered, "just what
the heck kind of an altar do I want to have?"

I found this interesting article about Thelema and Buddhism,
Vajrayana, deity worship:
http://www.ecsd.com/~msanborn/buddhism.html

I like the Buddhist deities because they don't exist independently of
the nothing-everythingness that is "God." And Tara seems particularly
appealling.

Crowley incorporated some Buddhist ideas and practices into his work.
Does the idea of a Tibetan-themed altar seem retarded for Western
Ceremonial practice?

Nate

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#17155

From: "antaios" <antaios@...>
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:31 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] Thelema, OTO, and Racism

rikb000

93!

> Dwtw
>
> Likely? That's pretty much a non-answer.
>
> But a better question would be,
> how many black members of the OTO are there today?
>
> Litlluw
>
> RLG

C'mon, you know the O.T.O. is littered with Black Brothers ;-)I have met two
black members personally...and since I am a hermit (in the purely colloquial
sense of the word), I'd think it can't be all that astoundingly rare...but
of course, there's a huge self-selection bias, so it isn't necessarily the
case that few black members of the O.T.O. equates to any kind of overt or
covert racism on the part of the O.T.O. I doubt if Grand Lodge even keeps
records of that kind of thing, personally. If not for the fact that I have
met a few of its officers, I could be black for all Grand Lodge knows.

  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 93/93
RIKB
www.horusset.com/RIKB

#17156

From: erinnicole@...
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:55 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] Thelema, OTO, and Racism

erinnicole_93

> But a better question would be,
> how many black members of the OTO
> are there today?

93

I know I live in NYC, but quite a few of our members are minorities.  Even our
lodge master is hispanic.  We have blacks, asians, semetics, arabs, and I think
we may have a white person here or there.

93s

93 93/93

[MODERATOR: separated quoted material from new material;
             future brief posts or unformatted posts may
             be deleted without comment.]

#17157

From: "threefold31" <threefold31@...>
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:53 am
Subject: Re: [t93] Thelema, OTO, and Racism

threefold31

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "antaios" <antaios@...> wrote:
>
> 93!
>
> > Dwtw
> >
> > Likely? That's pretty much a non-answer.
> >
> > But a better question would be,
> > how many black members of the OTO are there today?
> >
> > Litlluw
> >
> > RLG
>
> C'mon, you know the O.T.O. is littered with Black Brothers ;-)I
have met two
> black members personally...and since I am a hermit (in the purely
colloquial
> sense of the word), I'd think it can't be all that astoundingly
rare...but
> of course, there's a huge self-selection bias, so it isn't
necessarily the
> case that few black members of the O.T.O. equates to any kind of
overt or
> covert racism on the part of the O.T.O. I doubt if Grand Lodge
even keeps
> records of that kind of thing, personally. If not for the fact
that I have
> met a few of its officers, I could be black for all Grand Lodge
knows.
>
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 93 93/93
> RIKB
> www.horusset.com/RIKB
>

Yes, of course. And i wasn't suggesting that there is any racism in
the OTO. I'm sure they want as many dues-paying members as possible.
I was just curious as to whether the OTO as an organization attracts
minorities in any significant numbers. I wouldn't expect Grand Lodge
would know, or care, about the 'race' of any of its members, so i
was looking for exactly the kind of anecdotal evidence you've
provided. Thanks.

RLG

#17158

From: Caduceus Books <ben@...>
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:04 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] Thelema, Futhark & Hitler (clarification and Qvestionz!)

benfernee

93

Greetings!

> I
>attempted to explain twice that it came from a John Symonds book and
>provided a quote. As I was providing the quote, I attempted to explain
>that I had forgotten that Symonds was a known slanderer and liar and
>therefore the quote was meaningless.

Symonds wrote Medusa's Head or Conversations Between Aleister Crowley
and Adolf Hitler. It is a fictional work and has always been presented
as fiction. It is a literary device by which Symonds can present his own
ideas as to connections and affinities between Thelema and Nazism. My
understanding is that it is based on Crowley's annotations to a book of
Hitler's speeches, Symonds personal discussions with Crowley plus his
reading of Crowley. One story is that Martha Kuntzel, a member of
Crowley's A.'.A.'. believed Hitler to be a vehicle of the Aeon of Horus
and gave him a copy of the Book of the Law. The story goes on to suggest
she interceded to get Karl Germer deported from a concentration camp. I
do not know the truth of these stories, perhaps other people have more
information. Of course J.F.C. Fuller who wrote the Star in the West was
on friendly terms with Hitler and may have inspired the Blitzkrieg
tactic of battle. However many years ago Fuller had come to the opinion
that Crowley was a coward and broken off contact with him, however he
did maintain an interest in his writings.

With my best wishes

Ben

93    93/93
--
Ben Fernee
Caduceus Books
28 Darley Road
Burbage
Hinckley
Leicestershire
LE10 2RL
U.K.

Telephone 01455 250542 (+44 1455 250542 from abroad)
Fax       0870 0552982 (+44 870 0552982 from abroad)

Web pages:-  http://www.caduceusbooks.com
               http://www.occultartgallery.com

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#17159

From: Bill Heidrick <heidrick@...>
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:30 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] Thelema, OTO, and Racism

heidrick231

93 3/F,

At 08:02 PM 7/10/06 -0000, "threefold31" <threefold31@...> wrote:

>> At 12:11 PM 7/6/06 -0400, Jack in the Green <Jackbean1@...> wrote:
>>
>> >Just out of curiosity, with the race issue being discussed.
>> >Did Crowley, or the OTO for that matter, have any black
>> >members during the time of the Beast?
>>
>> I don't know, but it's likely.> 93 93/93
>> Bill

>Likely? That's pretty much a non-answer.

Like I said, I don't know.  When you don't know, you should say so,
modifying to the extent you can, within reason.  "I don't know" is a better
answer than deodorized bovine garden fertilizer.

>But a better question would be,
>how many black members of the OTO are there today?

Already answered, to the extent that the figures are not kept and there is
no exact answer available.  See the other replies by people who have
noticed incidentally.  OTO favors variety, although it must be admitted
that Crowley's remarks sometimes have a bleaching effect on interested
parties following through. That's unfortunate.  Nonetheless, everybody has
an ass and the oriface is not optional.  Better to be honest than to incur
moral liability for a lumpy rug down line.  It's a real world, and OTO
wants grownups who can laugh at folly, be it folk or folker.  Suffice it to
say that there is ample opportunity for humor well short of the mind of
Mencia.

93 93/93
Bill Heidrick

#17160

From: "Malgwyn Evans" <malgwyn@...>
Date: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:37 am
Subject: Re: [t93] Thelema, OTO, and Racism

malgwyn_evans

On 7/11/06, Bill Heidrick <heidrick@...> wrote:

>  At 08:02 PM 7/10/06 -0000, "threefold31" <threefold31@...> wrote:

>  >But a better question would be,
>  >how many black members of the OTO are there today?

I'd guess less than a hundred worldwide.  I've known and/or met six,
three of whom belonged to my camp/oasis.  When I was active, there was
around 2000 members. I know that  three of them left the OTO after
they booted(and later unbooted) Jerry Cornelius, as did I.

Frankly, I think you are asking the wrong question. You should be
asking how many drunken, licentious, red-headed women are members.
Not nearly enough I'd say (though one can be too much).

Malgwyn

#17161

From: "leahsublime1118" <leahsublime1118@...>
Date: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:51 pm
Subject: I need some assistance

leahsublime1118

I'm having much difficulty with the Gematria and I don't know if any
of you are members of the Thelemic Golden Dawn but I was just
wondering how did it take you all to hear from the Sanctuary of Thoth?


Heather

#17162

From: Granville Savidge <vavvavsix@...>
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:45 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] I need some assistance

vavvavsix

93
   Heather,
    It took a couple of months for a reply from Brian (FR.AchadAl) Goldstein. 
After he got back to me by e-mail we began talking on the phone and met once.
   I was promised an initiation as Zelator on 2/11/06 at the S.O.T.(Brian's
House)  which never took place because the other initiate could not make it due
to bad weather.  So after three months of phone instructions (which boiled down
to doing the LBPR or LTPR and M.P.R. every day) and some final instructions like
getting some candles and a robe for the ceremony, I was than told to self
initiate  It was quiet a disappointment.  I hate to admit but I was actually in
tears about it. I constantly would thank him for every thing and as far as
getting him a gift.  After all that I have not heard from him since.  There was
no attempt to make up for the incident, a new date or anything.  Due some other
things Brain said I decided to look for a new teacher which I have found through
an A:.A:. contact who lives in Clifton Park and is also aware Brain's Lack of
Integrity and  when I told my Teacher about some of the thing Brain was teaching
me I was convinced that he is a sadly
  misguided individual.
     I just wanted to get involved with the TGD and help it to grow and thoght
the SOT was real lodge that had at least monthly meetings!  Unfortunatly the TGD
is very virtual  while this can be good it is a weekness for the Order at this
point.  I also suggest you ask around about David Cherubim.  Did you see the TGD
on the TV show in search of...Satan?  It made the order look satantic,Crowley
was maligned and went it so far as calling a gateway to the church of Satan I
was hoping Brain (being a lawer and all) would want to do somthing about it and
I offered my time to help out  But he showed little concern about it. David was
actually on the show and I wondered why he did not speak up but I got no
answers.

   If you have any questions about Gematria I would be Happy to answer them as
best I can.
   93/93
   FR.LGS



leahsublime1118 <leahsublime1118@...> wrote:
           I'm having much difficulty with the Gematria and I don't know if any
of you are members of the Thelemic Golden Dawn but I was just
wondering how did it take you all to hear from the Sanctuary of Thoth?

Heather






---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates
starting at 1�/min.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#17163

From: "S. Parsons" <caligula_718@...>
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:56 pm
Subject: Re: I need some assistance

caligula_718

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "leahsublime1118"
<leahsublime1118@...> wrote:
>
> I'm having much difficulty with the Gematria and I don't know if any
> of you are members of the Thelemic Golden Dawn but I was just
> wondering how did it take you all to hear from the Sanctuary of Thoth?

Almost two years ago I made an attempt to make contact with them, and I
still haven't heard from them. I've heard they're still around, and
I've heard their non-existent these days, so I can't really tell you
much more than that...

C.

[MODERATOR: reformatted.]

#17164

From: "eyeofhoor" <owner@...>
Date: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:43 am
Subject: Re: I need some assistance

eyeofhoor

"leahsublime1118" <leahsublime1118@...> wrote:

> I'm having much difficulty with the Gematria and I don't know if any
> of you are members of the Thelemic Golden Dawn but I was just
> wondering how did it take you all to hear from the Sanctuary of Thoth?

   I don't understand your question Heather, can you be more specific?

   Nexus93

#17165

From: "Pak Eui Seong" <ahn.unsong@...>
Date: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:08 am
Subject: aa reading: availability of electronic copies

withinastaro...

until about May 2006, there was a magnificent site up
http://www.93beast.fea.st/files/

this site had just about every single book listed on the aa curriculum
in .pdf format! but now, this site (since may) is down. did it move
somewhere? is it planning on coming back online anytime soon?

thanks in advance for any info you have on the topic,
matt

#17166

From: mrjbr@...
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:28 am
Subject: Hello

xjdub93

I'm new to the list. I was in an order/school for a year and now I'm
solo. Here to learn.
93JR

Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)

#17167

From: "S. Parsons" <caligula_718@...>
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:42 am
Subject: Re: I need some assistance

caligula_718

Leah ~

93s...

I tried to check out TGD about 2 years ago; I have yet to hear from
them. I have heard that their group does not exist anymore,and I've
also heard that it is hard to make contact. Your best bet would be to
try to contact David Cherubim direct...you can find his e-mail through
some of his websites. They are (or, used to be) based out of N.Y. city,
so you may also want to check with any Thelemic orders in that area,
such as Pyramid or Djehuti Lodge; they can probably help you out more
than I can...

93
93/93.

Sean

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "leahsublime1118"
<leahsublime1118@...> wrote:
>
> I'm having much difficulty with the Gematria and I don't know if any
> of you are members of the Thelemic Golden Dawn but I was just
> wondering how did it take you all to hear from the Sanctuary of Thoth?
>
>
> Heather
>

#17168

From: "S. Parsons" <caligula_718@...>
Date: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:34 am
Subject: ConVo

caligula_718

93!

Can anyone tell me exactly when convocation is this year, in SE
Michigan? I haven't been able to find any dates, but I did find the
weekly schedule and the times(odd)...

Thanks in advance!

93
93/93.

Sean

#17169

From: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:15 pm
Subject: File - Monthly Moderation Minder (m.'.m.'.m.'.)

thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (67)

#17170

From: Domaris <domaris@...>
Date: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:18 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] ConVo

ms_domaris

February 22-27, 2007 is the next ConVocation, according to www.convocation.org.
D.

>Can anyone tell me exactly when convocation is this year, in SE
>Michigan? I haven't been able to find any dates, but I did find the
>weekly schedule and the times(odd)...

#17171

From: "Evie" <ladyaset33@...>
Date: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:38 am
Subject: Re: ConVo

ladyaset33

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "S. Parsons" <caligula_718@...>
wrote:
>
> 93!
>
> Can anyone tell me exactly when convocation is this year, in SE
> Michigan? I haven't been able to find any dates, but I did find
the
> weekly schedule and the times(odd)...
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> 93
> 93/93.
>
> Sean
>

93~
Look under Michigan Educational Council. They're the ones that
sponser the event. It's February 22-25, 2007. This year's is in the
history books.

93 93/93

Evie

#17172

From: "David Jones" <choronzon.club@...>
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] aa reading: availability of electronic copies

ass_headedgod

Do what thou wilt

Shall be the whole of the Law.

> this site had just about every single book listed on the aa curriculum
> in .pdf format! but now, this site (since may) is down. did it move
> somewhere? is it planning on coming back online anytime soon?

I believe that as usual they refused to respect O.T.O. copyrights over
certain O.T.O. instructions, A.'.A.'. rituals and still in copyright
Crowley materials.  A number of their Crowley documents listed public
domain or no copyright when they were clearly copyright O.T.O.  (i.e.
post 1923 publication date) and such listings endanger legal holdings
(since they had clearly used O.T.O.'s  freely distributed electronic
copies and stripped the copyright notices).  I can only assume that
since they were so intransigent regarding such minor details as proper
copyright notices that their ISP finally shut them down for cause.  It
was a really nice collection, but some people are more concerned with
making futile political statements than the legal niceties of
intellectual property, so what can you expect.

Love is the
law, love under will.

David R. Jones (not speaking for O.T.O.)

#17173

From: "Byron E. Hams" <HARIAM1@...>
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:28 am
Subject: OTO and Blacks

hariam

I have friends that are in the OTO and have been to Church with them,
but I do not see myself joining the OTO in this lifetime.  The same
holds true for the Golden Dawn.  I have no use for the Baptist Church
or any of the other major Churches, but I do have a need and a love of
God.

Anyway as a Black Child raised in the Baptist Church it is a very long
road from there to the OTO as a man.  As most Blacks over 40 were
raised in the Church it is very unlikely that you will get very many
members from the over 40 age group, but that is a problem on our part
and not on the OTO.  I have never got any negative feelings from any
OTO members that I have met inside or outside of Church Services, even
though I have always been the only Black person I have seen at those
times.

There are many paths to God and the OTO is only one of many, I believe
that I have found mine and a lot of the teachings in my path include a
lot of the teachings from other paths such as the OTO.

I live on one planet.
I believe in one GOD.
I am a member of only one Race, the Human Race.

Byron E. Hams
A Liftime Apprentice
http://hariam.org/CASTLE/

#17174

From: "Pak Eui Seong" <ahn.unsong@...>
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:06 am
Subject: Re: [t93] aa reading: availability of electronic copies

withinastaro...

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "David Jones"
<choronzon.club@...> wrote:
<snip for brevity>
>It
> was a really nice collection, but some people are more concerned
with
> making futile political statements than the legal niceties of
> intellectual property, so what can you expect.
>
> Love is the
> law, love under will.
>
> David R. Jones (not speaking for O.T.O.)
>

David,

Thanks for the response. I understand some of the materials were
probably in violation, but the vast majority was written well before
1923, and not even by Crowley. I wish they had moved over all the
non-violating stuff to another server. Oh, well. It's only a matter
of time before something similar crops up.

Matt

#17175

From: Caduceus Books <ben@...>
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:40 am
Subject: Re: [t93] OTO and Blacks

benfernee

93

Dear Byron Harris,

>I have friends that are in the OTO and have been to Church with them,
>but I do not see myself joining the OTO in this lifetime.  The same
>holds true for the Golden Dawn.  I have no use for the Baptist Church
>or any of the other major Churches, but I do have a need and a love of
>God.
>
>Anyway as a Black Child raised in the Baptist Church it is a very long
>road from there to the OTO as a man.  As most Blacks over 40 were
>raised in the Church it is very unlikely that you will get very many
>members from the over 40 age group, but that is a problem on our part
>and not on the OTO.  I have never got any negative feelings from any
>OTO members that I have met inside or outside of Church Services, even
>though I have always been the only Black person I have seen at those times.

Just as an aside, if you had joined the Golden Dawn in 1901 you would
not have been the only Black person in the organisation. Pamela Colman
Smith joined that year and she was Black, from the West Indies. She was
the artist for the Rider Waite Tarot pack and thus made an immensely
important contribution to western occultism.

I do not know of any Black members of the early O.T.O. However,  it
should be remembered that Pascal Beverley Randolph, who appears to be a
major source for the O.T.O. sex magick teachings, was a Black American.
The founders named a Middle Eastern and two Indian teachers as their
sources but I gather that, unlike Randolph, there is little in these
people's teachings that is similar to O.T.O. ideas about sex magick.

It is very important that we remember the contribution of Black people
to the traditions that interest us.

There are worrying connections between racism and occultism which need
to be addressed but this is less in the Golden Dawn and  OTO traditions,
than in Theosophical, Dion Fortune and Runic traditions and some Satanic
organisations

My best wishes

Ben

93                 93/93
--
Ben Fernee
Caduceus Books
28 Darley Road
Burbage
Hinckley
Leicestershire
LE10 2RL
U.K.

Telephone 01455 250542 (+44 1455 250542 from abroad)
Fax       0870 0552982 (+44 870 0552982 from abroad)

Web pages:-  http://www.caduceusbooks.com
               http://www.occultartgallery.com

#17176

From: "Michael C Johnson" <john9454@...>
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:43 pm
Subject: Re: OTO and Blacks

mcjohnson777

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "Byron E. Hams" <HARIAM1@...> wrote:
> I have friends that are in the OTO and have been to Church with them,
> but I do not see myself joining the OTO in this lifetime.  The same
> holds true for the Golden Dawn.  I have no use for the Baptist Church
> or any of the other major Churches, but I do have a need and a love of
> God.
>
> Anyway as a Black Child raised in the Baptist Church it is a very long
> road from there to the OTO as a man.  As most Blacks over 40 were
> raised in the Church it is very unlikely that you will get very many
> members from the over 40 age group, but that is a problem on our part
> and not on the OTO.  I have never got any negative feelings from any
> OTO members that I have met inside or outside of Church Services, even
> though I have always been the only Black person I have seen at those
> times.
>
> There are many paths to God and the OTO is only one of many, I believe
> that I have found mine and a lot of the teachings in my path include a
> lot of the teachings from other paths such as the OTO.
>
> I live on one planet.
> I believe in one GOD.
> I am a member of only one Race, the Human Race.

You got one up on me. I tried to go to a mass several months ago but,
after I arrived outside of the place, I got real nervous about the
whole thing and just decided to leave. I never went back. The girl
that runs the place assured me that it was all OK and it was cool.
But, I just chickened out of it.
   The Golden Dawn has been a real good experience so far.
  With Masonry seems to be a little strange and it seems to live up to
all the sterotypical images (at least in the south). How can it be
brotherly love when there is hate for certain race of man?
I tried to join Prince Hall about a year and a half ago and they never
returned my replies after I told them my religious belief. It is funny
because American Co-Masonry had no problems with it or the Golden
Dawn. But, now as a irregular guy in the eyes of the regulars, I do
not think that America as whole views things in the "regular" manner
as viewed from the Regular Guys.

Michael Johnson

[MODERATOR: top-posted, reformatted; future posts from this
             individual may be deleted if not formatted properly.]

#17177

From: "Michael C Johnson" <john9454@...>
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: [t93] OTO and Blacks

mcjohnson777

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, Caduceus Books <ben@...> wrote:
>
> There are worrying connections between racism and occultism which need
> to be addressed but this is less in the Golden Dawn and  OTO
traditions,
> than in Theosophical, Dion Fortune and Runic traditions and some
Satanic
> organisations
>
> My best wishes
>

A lot of people say this about Theosophy. But, Theosophy was closily
linked with the Le Droit Humain. I did not think that Le Droit Humain
where racist. I am having a hard time believeing that Anne Besant or
C.W. Leadbeater or Geffery Hodson are linked to anything racist (for
that matter Blavatsky). I am a member of The Theosophical Society of
America and a Black American. I do not get any racist vibes from the
society. Not like F&AM in the southeastern US. Are you refering to the
Thule Society connection to Theosophy with the Aryan heritage thing?
With Dion Fortune, I sort got that kind of a vibe from her book
Mystical Qabalah. But, I do know about her, she was a ex-Golden Dawn
member was she not?

#17178

From: Caduceus Books <ben@...>
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:11 am
Subject: Re: [t93] OTO and Blacks

benfernee

Greetings!

Thank you very much for your message

>A lot of people say this about Theosophy. But, Theosophy was closily
>linked with the Le Droit Humain. I did not think that Le Droit Humain
>where racist.
>I am having a hard time believeing that Anne Besant or C.W. Leadbeater
>or Geffery Hodson are linked to anything racist (for that matter
>Blavatsky). I am a member of The Theosophical Society of America and a
>Black American. I do not get any racist vibes from the society.

It is the idea of Root Races that was present in the early Theosophical
Society that I was thinking of. I would note that they did not invent
the idea of an "Aryan Race" but that Blavatsky did consider it to be the
most spiritually advanced state of humanity. I do wonder if this may
have been an influence upon Hitler talking about an Aryan race rather
than just white northern Europeans and even the Nazi adoption of the
swastika which the Theosophical Society was already using as its symbol.
That said I have come across copies of the a Theosophical magazine from
the 1930's entitled the Aryan Path which was at pains to disassociate
from the Nazi's use of the term Aryan and I would be sure that modern
Theosophy would recoil from racism and would be acutely aware of its
dangers. I was thinking of past possible influences and my mention of
the Theosophical Society in this context was unfair without making this
clear.

I have immense respect for the politics of Annie Besant whose work was
very influential in the fields of worker rights (especially those of
women workers) and also Indian nationalism.

>Not like F&AM in the southeastern US.

You will have to excuse my ignorance, I do not know what that
organisation is.

>With Dion Fortune, I sort got that kind of a vibe from her book
>Mystical Qabalah. But, I do know about her, she was a ex-Golden Dawn
>member was she not?
She was a member of an offshoot of the Golden Dawn and went on to found
the Society of Inner Light which was something of a marriage of Golden
Dawn and Theosophy. After her death the Society of Inner Light went
through a period when it would not consider applicants from people who
were not born in Great Britain and I suspect that applicants from ethnic
minorities would not be welcomed. I think they might have countered that
they were exploring native British mysteries but I am dubious about
this. The point is about someone's Inner Plane contacts, not their
parentage. Also, of course, there never has been a native British
people, just immigrants of various races and cultures. I have remember
an article by Gareth Knight, an important figure in the post Golden Dawn
scenes, that was a rejection of modern multiracial and multicultural
Britain on esoteric grounds. W.G. Gray, another important figure in
related scenes, was an old fashioned right wing racist. However this was
during the 1970's. I have no reason to believe that the modern Society
of Inner Light is racist in its current operations.

With my best wishes

Ben

--
Ben Fernee
Caduceus Books
28 Darley Road
Burbage
Hinckley
Leicestershire
LE10 2RL
U.K.

Telephone 01455 250542 (+44 1455 250542 from abroad)
Fax       0870 0552982 (+44 870 0552982 from abroad)

Web pages:-  http://www.caduceusbooks.com
               http://www.occultartgallery.com

#17179

From: "Email with your request" <lightintolight@...>
Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:35 am
Subject: Freemasonry, OTO, and the Fatal Flaw

lightintolight

Did anyone read of the recent discovery contradicting earlier
postulates about Freemasonry in UK and USA?

Basically, the so called spurious French rituals are more accurately
the so called lost ritual than the abbreviated USA and UK.

The same article discussing the initiatory aspect of French rituals.
What this all amounts to is that maybe Crowley actually discovered
some hidden masonic wisdom in the results; or per change if he had one
of the later rituals as reference for his magical theory and OTO
ritual; one can suspect he made the same mistake as the others.

smiles!  Is it possible that there really is a Freemasonic order of
adepts in the world.

M

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#17180

From: "alockslee" <alockslee@...>
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:57 pm
Subject: Lon Duquette and accusations of wrongdoing

alockslee

The following link will explain in greater detail and more fully
provide information in support of the topic:

http://hermit418.livejournal.com/

DuQuette had worked on a video for HMP in the early 90's and
subsequently and without permission gave away and allowed copies to be
made and distributed in violation of copyright law. Some of these
events occurred while he was on official business for the Order, which
can cause the OTO to become involved.

DuQuette as the series of posts indicate, has a history of other
similar problems, which require the review of the link.

A complaint was filed with the Grand Tribunal of the OTO and do to
DuQuette's influence and control managed to stall, delay and
ultimately avoid the matter being heard.  There is quite a history of
this happening in the past and one has only to research the MAgickal
Link to find a written apology to Chris Hyatt of New Falcon
Publications for almost an exact copy of wha the is being accused of
currently.

Please check out the link and respond to it, whether or not you agree
or disagree, speak out on your opinion if fairness and rightousness
was observed by the Grand Tribunal and if DuQuette as Deputy Grand
Master has used his position and power to affect matters as pointed out.

Reply | Messages in this Topic (9)

#17181

From: "nagasiva yronwode" <nagasiva@...>
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:57 pm
Subject: Re: Lon Duquette and accusations of wrongdoing

nigris333