93 333,

In a message dated 8/16/2005 4:15:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nagasiva@... writes:
>
> if Thelema isn't a cult, then religions cannot subvert it.
> Crowleyanity is just a peculiarity, Thelema innate.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that if Thelema did not have cults as a
vehicle, it would not be so easily misrepresented? Again, it seems to me that
this same predicament, that of pearls to swine, or of swine cults as the
vehicle for pearls of Truth, has had ample historical precedent.

Yes, Crowleyanity is a peculiarity, but it is one that shows definite signs
of growth and longevity. History is certainly not without examples of such
peculiarities taking root and entangling themselves with society and culture for
protracted periods of time. What is your prognosis for the duration and
influence of Crowleyanity, assuming that the efforts of yourself and others fail
to
effectively expose it as dangerous to its potential victims?

93 93/93
Camlion


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

50050819 ix om

333:
# > if Thelema isn't a cult, then religions cannot subvert it.
# > Crowleyanity is just a peculiarity, Thelema innate.

camlion@...:
# Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that if Thelema did not have cults
# as a vehicle,

Thelema doesn't have cults as vehicles. sometimes Thelema inspires
cults, or becomes so catalyzing as to instigate cults in its wake,
but the cults are a spin-off byproduct, a promoted personality or
mythology which may seek to glean attention from the potential
of liberation that volition and its power contains. see below.

# it would not be so easily misrepresented?

the Method of Religion makes misrepresentations for the Herd.

# Again, it seems to me that this same predicament, that of pearls
# to swine, or of swine cults as the vehicle for pearls of Truth,

not applicable. the Thelemic strand isn't doctrinal, and so the
notion of it being related to Truth rather than to Reality is
perverting. the pearls are stars of human volition, generating
brilliance and genius and leaving a wake of transformative
beneficence. the questionables will leave cults in their
wake as intentional qliphotic shams.

# has had ample historical precedent.

not as far as Thelema is concerned. there's a few groups that
seek to associate with the current of volition that is part
of human experience and consciousness. some of these may
have genius as some portion of their composition, but that
they function as vehicles for any kinds of Truths is really
undemonstrated (purported by the cults competing for attention).

# Yes, Crowleyanity is a peculiarity, but it is one that shows
# definite signs of growth and longevity.

in the annals of human population expansion, this is not at
all surprising. all manner of ridiculousness manifest as
the Next Big Truths.

# History is certainly not without examples of such
# peculiarities taking root and entangling themselves with
# society and culture for protracted periods of time.

what they tell us about volition may be another matter
entirely, however, insofar as we see that it may be
diverted and vampirized by those with an interest.

# What is your prognosis for the duration and influence of
# Crowleyanity,

no idea, I have little interaction with it at this time.
where my correspondence intersects I may vouch for the
less enslaving alternatives.

# assuming that the efforts of yourself and others

what efforts are these?

# fail to effectively expose it as dangerous to its
# potential victims?

any more dangerous than numerous other cults? I'm not so
sure. with cults masquerading as something which they are
not, it is occasionally valuable to have someone reflecting
the liberative or constraining quality of presented panaceas
from positions outside doctrinal envelopes.

perhaps when sufficient individuals come forward crying
"They said it was Thelema, but they were in error!" then
those in the know will create more substantial and direct
instruction as to the dangers of cults making use of this
apparel, and inform novices how to avoid them as pits
of disorientation.

many ecclesiastics symbolize to the periphery the glimmer
of truly vaunted ideals. a vanguard of possible success,
the actuality of individualistic mysticism arrayed as a
network of operating Magi may always lie outside the cults
who cluster about its most obvious entrances, quick to
chameleon into the faddish forms of modern novelty so as to
draw the currencies of the New AEon: money and attention.
by this method (religious) do their coffers and rosters grow.

333

???:
#> If Thelema is not culturally bound and has universal
#> relevance,

I'd grant this if cultism and the Method of Religion is
pretty much abandoned as I've described -- identifying
authority-sources in conventional society, which is
basically what Anton LaVey set about doing and what
gave Aquino and others incentive to start their
Temple of Set, transcending or bridging Satanism
and faux Egyptianism.

#> how would "strength" and "weakness" be defined in a
#> way that would not betray a heavily occidental
#> mindset/prejudice? ...

the strength or weakness is a qualifier on one's
knowledge of and adherence to one's presumed 'will',
and particularly indwellingness to one's True Will.
weakness would apply to throughput OR discipline.

#> Are "strength" and "weakness" any easier to pin
#> down and define than say, intelligence?

intelligence of certain types is evaluated by testing.
volitional fortitude and wholesomeness may be
evaluated by expression as compared to action through
time (comparison of what one says with what is done),
along with the record of contention with extended
struggle indicating futility of applied intent).

Shemhazai Endemoniado <shemhazai@...>:
# ...Blake's proverbs of Hell:
# "The weak in courage is strong in cunning."

sounds hopeful!

333

I'm looking for a Crowley ritual named 'The Brazen Head'. Thought that
this group might be a good place to look, and ask. Here is some
information on it from the red-flame site:

BRAZEN HEAD, THE (ritual)
Original typed/Diaries - Third Notebook pg.5, Jan.12, 1923
The Magical Link Vol.9:3, 1996

I've heard that the ritual is an evocation of the goetic belial for
the means of prophecy, although I may be completely wrong. Any help
would be great, thanks.

greg

E6

# From: mike marduk <rockout93@...>
# --- svartzbruder <nagasiva@...> wrote:
# > # From: mike marduk <rockout93@...>

re Black Brothers:
# > # They make of Knowledge a False Crown,
#
# > this claim is unsupported by rationalism, note.
#
# ...Do you mean that Daath is the true Crown?

no I mean that there is no rational justification
for the supposition that Black Brothers exist OR
that their actions and achievements are negative.
this is simply a cookie-cutter transparency which
we may project upon anyone we may not understand
or who will not obey our dictates to the letter.

# Do you believe that there is nothing which is
# beyond reason?

reason has the ability to analyze and defuse the
most stringent of demonizings. 'Black Brother'
may be slammed against many others, but what
happens to conform to its transparency may be
something valuable too (a kind of including
the Baby with the Bathwater in poor taste).

# ...EVERY man and woman,  whatever their state,
# whatever their claims,  cultist or not,  slaves of
# reason or not,  is a STAR.

how did you determine this? what commonalities are
there to which you may point that support this idea?
is astronomy the Final Word on the psychospiritual?
are Black Brothers stars too? black holes?

333

50050827 ix om

"Ahn Eun Song" <ahn.unsong@g...>:
# > i accept this business about the role of Christian devils in
# > Thelema as reasonable and likely, if not true. does it lessen the
# > force of the idea that thelema is perhaps indebted to this partner-
# > in-crime? i don't think so. remember, it is Saint Augustine who
# > first said 'do what thou wilt.' He said it in latin
# > though: 'Dilige, et quod vis fac.'

what, 'Love and do as you will'?

# > Many (Judeo-)Christian writers
# > in fact are recommended reading in the AA, for instance:
# > 1. The spiritual guide of Miguel de Molinos
# > 2. Kabbala Denudata, von Rosenroth
# > 3. The Writings of William O'Neill (Blake)
# > 4. The Bible, by various authors unknown

"eyeofhoor" [my favourite Thelemic prophet!] <eyeofhoor@...>:
#   The nosedive taken by Crowley into the mire of religion is
# reflected in his recommended reading list.

completely agreed. his coverage of philosophy could have been
far more complete.

# > Ever read Liber Agape? Looks influenced by Christianity to me. Ever
# > read the Gnostic Mass? Looks influenced by the Roman Catholic Mass
# > to me.
#
#   Those documents not only reflect Crowley's interest in religion,
# but also reflect his intent on synthesizing a new religion by
# marrying Thelema with religious practices.

an excellent point. we could also compare the church constructed
by Leadbeater resident inside of his orgs/orders with the EGC.
there's mimicry of form all over the place if one looks carefully.
is it really anti-religious if they're also *duplicating religion*?
let's not forget how the Black Masses and Sabbats were turned from
Christian nightmares into ostensive religiomagical "Traditions".

# > Though first said in Latin (by Augustine) and then in French (by
# > Rabelais), it does not make 'Do what thou wilt' an original phrase
# > for Aleister Crowley.
#
#   Indeed--and that is the precise point overlooked both by
# Crowleyites and by the those that would drag Thelema down by piling
# on to it the baggage that belongs to Biblical religions.

missing the trees for the forest.

# The roots of Thelema are not found in the origin of the word ThELHMA,
# or in the origin of the phrase *Do what thou wilt*, but rather in the
# common core ideology of exponents of Thelema.

and the principles exemplified by these, yes.

# Francois Rabelais--

<snip excellent bio>

# To summarize, the invention of Thelema by Rabelais was not inspired
# by the teachings of Augustine, but instead consists of a rebellious
# reaction to Augustinian teachings. Humanism lies at the core of
# Rabelaisian Thelema.

at least anti-Augustinian or inverso-Augustinian principles.
analysis of any specifics for these would be helpful, and
yet Rabelais is more about implication than content, no?


# Sir Francis Dashwood & the Monks of Medmenham--

<snip excellent bio>

# and an abandoned church. With *Do what thou wilt* inscribed above the
# doorway, and a sexually-suggestive statue of Venus bent over naked
# adorning the entrance, sexual orgies and the worship of pagan gods
# were alleged to have taken place. The worship of pagan gods during
# that era would have to be seen as deliberate acts of blasphemy
# directed at the religious establishment, and also demonstrating the
# Thelema of Dashwood as identical to that of Rabelais.

"identical" may be a stretch, but some of its trajectory is
quite comparable.

# presence of a statue of Harpocrates, which probably constitutes
# the earliest link between Thelema and the Egyptian gods.
# It has also been reported that Dashwood had the old church
# on the property renovated and converted into an Egyptian temple.

what is the value of Egyptian gods to Thelema? why should their
connection be maintained *aside* as a bid for outdoing Jews,
Christians, and Muslims? for what reason is Egypt given focus?

# ...Dashwood
# lived and died before the Rosetta stone was ever discovered or
# deciphered, showing he had little knowledge of the Egyptian gods he
# was worshiping....

the problems of Crowley's understanding of same have been mentioned.

# Aiwass & the Book of the Law--

<snip>

# Whereas Rabelais had to be subtle in his rebelliousness, and Dashwood
# secretive in his, Aiwass engages in open blasphemy by waging an all-
# out assault on Biblical religion and encouraging extreme humanism.

didn't Crowley act in manners contrary to this through his interests
in fomenting a cult in his wake? how does this serve humanism?

# Aiwass' use of religious elements and statements similar to verses in
# the Bible conforms to the pattern first started by Rabelais of using
# religious concepts for the purpose of advocating a blasphemous
# stance.

the anti-religious stance is obvious.

# One would have to be blind not to see that Thelema is not a
# religion at all, but is in truth the antireligion.

it certainly has elements. pockets of anti-Christianity have
been breaking out ever since it allied itself with Rome.
are all anti-Christians the same or allied behind one banner?
I don't think so. one might say that their reactionary tack
orients them in opposition to that which they respond, but
their rudiments may remain concealed in ambiguous dust of
the religions that they oppose. presumably license is the
Trump of Release for all the Willful.

333

50050827 ix om

hi Alamantra!

thank you for all of your expressions on the Rabelais Club and its
members, history, etc.  this is very interesting and has inspired
me to seek out (again, after passing up) the two books:

	 "The Monks of Thelema" -- Walter Besant and James Rice, 1878.

	 "The Building of Thelema" -- C.R. Ashbee, 1910.

"Alamantra" <alamantra@...>:
#  It was C.R. Ashbee who wrote "The Building of Thelema". (1910)  It was
# Henry Ashbee who passed through the Rabelais Club.
# C.R. Ashbee was a follower of William Morris and John Ruskin and founded the
# Essex Press.
#
# The Guild of Handicraft which opened its doors in Whitechapel in 1888 was
# the brainchild of a young architect Charles Robert Ashbee. Whilst a trainee
# at the office of architect G.F.Bodley, and living at Toynbee Hall, Ashbee
# was influenced not only by the ideas of Morris & Ruskin, but also met Edward
# Carpenter, philosopher of the simple life and proponent of `homogenic love'.
# The Guild grew out of lectures Ashbee gave on Ruskin to the 'BWM', his
# shorthand for the British Working Man. Frustrated by the well-intentioned
# philanthropy of Toynbee Hall "neither a college, convent nor a club" he
# conceived of a more practical experiment, a craft 'co-operative' modelled on
# English Medieval Guilds, where skilled craftsmen working by the principles
# of Ruskin & Morris would not only produce hand-crafted goods, but also run a
# school for young apprentices. The idea was greeted with great enthusiasm by
# almost everyone except Morris himself, who was by now deeply involved in
# promoting revolutionary socialism. In an attempt to win his support Ashbee
# declared, "look I am going to forge a weapon for you;- and thus I too work
# for you in the overthrow of society", to which Morris replied, " The weapon
# is too small to be of any Value."
#
# William Morris and Walter Besant (founder of the Rabelais Club) had mutual
# acquaintances such as John R Magrath.
#
#  Henry Ashbee, on the other hand, was known as Victorian England's
# "pornographer-in-chief" and once said that the members of the Rabelais Club
# were "slow and un-rabelaisian."

are there sources describing all of this, or else how did you piece
the history of the Rabelais Club together? thanks.

333

50050827 ix om

heya Mabopsa87!

"Ahn Eun Song" <ahn.unsong@...>
#>#> I dont see the mere subversion of Thelema, so much as I see the
#>#> relativeness of a Thelema to religion.  It is not the thing,
#>#> but it may be part of the thing.

333:
#>#> Religion is convenient, it appeals to the herd instinct, without
#>#> letting on the deity or deities may be simple mental constructs.

"Ahn Eun Song" <ahn.unsong@...>
# [Are they] any less important, effective, consequential... ?

important? -- tremendously less so, given their usual stipulations
               about how gods are Creators of the Cosmos, moral
               standard-bearers, spiritual-avenue-displayers, etc.

effective? -- toward what end? as medititative foci, no. as the
               doers and players of the cosmic arena, yes they
               are merely human mentalities, if so, and may not
               be effective toward ANYTHING without human hands.

consequential? -- if they are entirely the content of mind, then
               the consequentiality of believing in post-mortem
               rewards for being good may be completely removed;
               without this consequence, few cults display virtue.
333:
#> typically the associations given unto deities has them responsible
#> for all that we cannot explain or cannot understand as to their
#> origination.
#
# maybe for thee religious. for me, deity iz happy to be abstract
# and 'unreal.'

as such, you've already reduced gods to mere figments of mind.

# then again, i've always prefered a mystical heaven ov
# NOW/thee imaginations to a 'literal' heaven 'promised'
# to me in the afterlife (made up of houris or angels or
# cherubim or whatever).

me too.

# ...i see intelligent Catholicism and stupid
# Catholicism rather easily.

participation in edifices which have as part of their
overall aims the pushing of Creeds, the abandonment
of human reproductive technology, and (at least until
recently) the demonization and villification of its
competitors, seems too foolish to qualify for an
'intelligence'. backward and ignorant, more like.

# but by making the difference, and
# prefering one over the other, it doesn't necessitiate me enslaving
# myself to any cult outside the imaginary and invisible 'cult ov
# intelligence' which i made secretly last night while everyone was
# sleeping. if such are the extent of my 'crimes' when i die, i'm
# willing to be forgiven.

having turned gods into mental figments, assigned the
character of 'intelligence' to fools, and made a cult of it
last night while everyone is sleeping veritably excludes
you from most targetted attempts to convince otherwise.

# ...you're one hell ov a skeptic!

thank you kindly, kin.

# ...have you seen my buddhist temple pictures on AP?

I'll contact you offlist about them. thanks. :)

# may thee golden path ov thee silver star open before you,

does the star have a certain geometry?
is it a septagram? if so, why?

333

----- Original Message -----
From: "333" <nagasiva@...>
To: <thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 2:41 PM
Subject: [t93] Re: The Rabelais Club's Members and History


> 50050827 ix om
>
> hi Alamantra!
>
> thank you for all of your expressions on the Rabelais Club and its
> members, history, etc.  this is very interesting and has inspired
> me to seek out (again, after passing up) the two books:
>
> "The Monks of Thelema" -- Walter Besant and James Rice, 1878.
>
> "The Building of Thelema" -- C.R. Ashbee, 1910.

Greetings 333:

I've got "The Monks of Thelema" though it took some searching. Its one of
those projects that I am slowly keying in. ---Heh, which explains why when
one looks for quotes online, they only find the parts that I've keyed and
turned out. It's funny that when I googled it hoping to find some other
portions and save myself some typing, I kept finding the sections that I had
already done. I do wish this work were more widely available though.
  For those that are looking for traces of Crowley, or some revelatory
connection, they will be disappointed; although I think that it is a good
work myself that makes some key insights about human nature and what happens
when people try to force 'utopia' on others. Another thing I thought was
interesting was the ritual/play where they re-enact Eris' tossing of the
Golden Apple ...Considering how Discordianism emerged from a paradigm that
had Thelema as a fairly conspicuous feature ...I thought the synchronicity
interesting.

I've also found Crowley's omission of this work to be rather interesting.
There is no doubt that he knew who Walter Besant was, as he makes a passing
(and minor derogatory) remark about him in his confessions. He also refers
to both Besant and James Rice in the Commentary on Liber 220 ...but it is
interesting that he refers to `Ready-Money Mortiboy' and still evades "The
Monk of Thelema" although he did directly appropriate the term in his
employment of "knight-monks of thelema" (Liber II)

Also, Besant has some pretty interesting masonic and global 'mover and
shaker' affiliations.

Walter Besant was a founding member of The Quatuor Coronati Lodge, (The Four
Crowns Lodge) and was
the treasurer of the Palestine Exploration Fund. He was the Secretary of the
Masonic Archaelogical Institute.
See: http://dancing.org/tsmr/.books/mackey/MMAP~1/Mmac-06.htm


From:
http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/timebase/novemb
er9.htm

  1886 November 9 - Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076 which had been issued a
warrant by the United Grand Lodge of England on November 28, 1884, and
consecrated on January 21, 1886, celebrates the feast day of Quatuor
Coronati. According to its official history, Quatuor Coronati lodge was
founded by a group of nine Freemasons: Colonel Sir Charles Warren (later
general and London Commissioner of Police during the Jack the Ripper
murders), W. Harry Rylands, Robert Gould, the Reverend Adolfus F.A.
Woodford, Sir Walter Besant, John P. Rylands, Major Sisson C. Pratt, William
James Hugan and George W. Speth. All were scholars and several were highly
distinguished in the field of Masonic study.

According to Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry: "it was Besant who first
conceived the idea of forming the Quatuor Coronati Lodge, and suggested it
to W. R. Rylands, who started the movement."

Besant's passing, as well as reference to the Quatuor Coronati Lodge, is
noted in John Yarker's "The Arcane Schools" [chapter 12]

Also, Walter Besant's "Herr Paulus" was reviewed in Lucifer (Blavatsky) June
1888.

So, IMO, that makes me wonder if Crowley's omission of this work or
references to the Rabelais Club (although he often mentions people who were
members) something not altogether unintentional.

Good luck on finding "The Building of Thelema." I haven't been able to find
a version although I'm still looking.

I think that the Rabelais Club provides some very nice color especially in
creating new allegories for the initiatory current. ...I'd kinda like to see
a "thelemic" rite that uses Gargantua and Pantagruel since it is both a
farce and an epic with all of the elements of any good epic which is what
initiatory structures are generally founded on. ...The ultimate revelation
of Trinc included.

Something else I've been looking at lately ...the writings of Leo Strauss.
Much of his philosophical premises are from the same sources as Crowley's
..and its interesting how they come to very different conclusions that,
though having some superficial similarities, are almost antagonistic to one
another.

Take care.
Bliss:
Alamantra

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, 333 <nagasiva@l...> wrote:
> 50050827 ix om
>
> heya Mabopsa87!
>


Hello 333!

>
> important? -- tremendously less so, given their usual stipulations
>               about how gods are Creators of the Cosmos, moral
>               standard-bearers, spiritual-avenue-displayers, etc.
>
> effective? -- toward what end? as medititative foci, no. as the
>               doers and players of the cosmic arena, yes they
>               are merely human mentalities, if so, and may not
>               be effective toward ANYTHING without human hands.
>
> consequential? -- if they are entirely the content of mind, then
>               the consequentiality of believing in post-mortem
>               rewards for being good may be completely removed;
>               without this consequence, few cults display virtue.



The only way one can distinguish between a mental construct and a
different type of verity is to demonstrate the difference.
Not, "Like this..." But rather, "Just like this..."
Voila.

To my understanding, everything can be reduced to a mental construct,
if one really wishes. There is no inherent essence in anything, the
existence of all things depends on the existence of other things.
Anatta.

However, some things are easier to reduce than others, and the things
that are more difficult to reduce we
call, 'reliable,' 'solid,' 'reality,' and by other misleading
names. 'Gods' is midlevel difficulty to reduce. 'Green, slow,
persistent ideas' much easier to reduce than 'Gods.' This forum,
thread, and it's participants much harder than 'Gods' to reduce.

> 333:
> #> typically the associations given unto deities has them
responsible
> #> for all that we cannot explain or cannot understand as to their
> #> origination.
> #
> # maybe for thee religious. for me, deity iz happy to be abstract
> # and 'unreal.'
>
> as such, you've already reduced gods to mere figments of mind.

I have little-to-no agenda that I am pushing in regards to any
illusions I buy into in regard to 'Gods.' When I get an agenda, I
might have more invested in making them appear more 'solid' than
present.

>
> # then again, i've always prefered a mystical heaven ov
> # NOW/thee imaginations to a 'literal' heaven 'promised'
> # to me in the afterlife (made up of houris or angels or
> # cherubim or whatever).
>
> me too.
>
> # ...i see intelligent Catholicism and stupid
> # Catholicism rather easily.
>
> participation in edifices which have as part of their
> overall aims the pushing of Creeds, the abandonment
> of human reproductive technology, and (at least until
> recently) the demonization and villification of its
> competitors, seems too foolish to qualify for an
> 'intelligence'. backward and ignorant, more like.

Anyone who is pushing anti-reason can do so under any banner they
want. I can be a cultural Catholic, and not participate in any of the
Roman Catholics insanitites regarding human reproduction,
infallibility of the Pope on matters of faith, or a whole host of
other idiocies associated with the RC's. I've abandoned the ploy of
wholesale rejecting my RC background as ineffectual. I now embrace
the portions of my religious upbringing I reason to be in line with
my definitions of sanity and well-being. Black-and-white thinking is
so Age 18. I'm over it.

>
> # but by making the difference, and
> # prefering one over the other, it doesn't necessitiate me
enslaving
> # myself to any cult outside the imaginary and invisible 'cult ov
> # intelligence' which i made secretly last night while everyone was
> # sleeping. if such are the extent of my 'crimes' when i die, i'm
> # willing to be forgiven.
>
> having turned gods into mental figments, assigned the
> character of 'intelligence' to fools, and made a cult of it
> last night while everyone is sleeping veritably excludes
> you from most targetted attempts to convince otherwise.

If I understand you correctly, that's a good way of putting it. My
religious/ spiritual life is no longer on display. I'm no longer in
the God business. I'm my own priest, and I am not looking for any
students, followers, or sympathizers. If I chance upon some by
accident, OK. And if I chance to find a teacher, then I will do my
best to be a good, attentive student.

>
> # ...you're one hell ov a skeptic!
>
> thank you kindly, kin.
>
> # ...have you seen my buddhist temple pictures on AP?
>
> I'll contact you offlist about them. thanks. :)

Please do! I plan to stay in Korea for another two years, and in that
time visit all the Buddhist temples I can, and snap as many photos as
possible.

>
> # may thee golden path ov thee silver star open before you,
>
> does the star have a certain geometry?
> is it a septagram? if so, why?

Well, I haven't found any evidence to definitively suggest it's shape
yet. If the Vision and the Voice is one's only source (not my
recommendation), the choices seem varied: some pages, it is more like
a chaosphere. Some aires, it is more like an Eye of Horus. Some
workings, it seems more like a septagram. Any evidence to the
contrary is welcome.

In my own private Idaho, she's usually as pictured in the Atu
attributed as the Star. Not the Tzar. Heh. ;) LOL!
You are welcome to visit my own private Idaho, but if things start to
appear funny after awhile, don't blame me! What else should happen to
one trying to visit another's mind?

>
> 333

AES

333 <nagasiva@l...> wrote:

> at least anti-Augustinian or inverso-Augustinian principles.
> analysis of any specifics for these would be helpful, and
> yet Rabelais is more about implication than content, no?

   The reversal or inversion of Christian principles at the fictional
Abbey of Theleme are both specific and implied. Counter-Augustinian
principles are specified as the principles embraced at Theleme due to
the prevalence of Augustine's teachings as the core ideals enforced
at Christian monasteries, and the desire of the Monk in the story to
have his Abbey operate in a manner opposite of other monasteries.

   The attempts at marrying Augustine and Christianity with Thelema
blindly ignore elements in Rabelais stories that establish the Abbey
of Theleme as an anti-religious, anti-Christian community. One of the
first policies outlined in the practices embraced at the Abbey of
Theleme is the habit of cleaning a room after any person belonging to
a religious order has set foot in it, a policy designed to be the
reverse of that in Christian monasteries where a room would be
cleansed after a woman had set foot in it, presumably due to women
being perceived as unclean, or to eradicate the room of the sexual
presence of a woman. The policy observed at the Abbey of Theleme is
overtly anti-religious.

   Due to the times Rabelais lived in, he had to walk a fine line
between blasphemy and self-preservation in order to express his
ideals and not be killed for doing so. If Rabelais had had more
freedom to express his ideas truthfully, he may very well have
produced extreme anti-Christian literature similar to the Book of the
Law. Nonetheless, he does implement a few symbolic features in the
Abbey of Theleme that indicates a willingness to go to other side in
the same way Crowley chose to. The description of the Abbey of
Theleme is of a structure with six sides, six towers, and six stories-
-the number of the Beast of Revelations. I have no doubt this was
intentional on the part of Rabelais, and that it was his subtle way
of expressing a complete rejection of Christian ideas within the
Abbey. Another related detail is the first item mentioned as the
selected clothing for the women of the Abbey, stockings of a scarlet
or purple color, the same as colors of the Scarlet Woman and the
Scarlet Beast of Revelations.

   One other detail that speaks volumes about the inspiration for the
Abbey of Theleme is a reference to the *woods of Theleme*, which are
mentioned (as I recall) in regard to the gathering of fowl and game
for food. My impression is that Theleme is a geographical area, hence
the name Abbey of Theleme, an Abbey located at Theleme. If it can be
established that an area in France named Theleme exists or existed,
it would cast serious doubt on the name *theleme* being taken
directly from the Greek New Testament by Rabelais. On the other hand,
the use of Greek terminology of any sort would have been weighed as
heretical on the part of Christian authorities, as the study of Greek
was forbidden and viewed as a path to heresy. In that case, the use
of a Greek term by Rabelais can be seen as another subtle element of
blasphemy on his part, as opposed to an effort at linking the Abbey
of Theleme with Christianity.


   Prophet of L

----- Original Message -----
From: "eyeofhoor" <owner@...>
To: <thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 12:01 PM
Subject: [t93] Anti-religiosity at the Abbey of Theleme


>   One other detail that speaks volumes about the inspiration for the
> Abbey of Theleme is a reference to the *woods of Theleme*, which are
> mentioned (as I recall) in regard to the gathering of fowl and game
> for food. My impression is that Theleme is a geographical area, hence
> the name Abbey of Theleme, an Abbey located at Theleme. If it can be
> established that an area in France named Theleme exists or existed,
> it would cast serious doubt on the name *theleme* being taken
> directly from the Greek New Testament by Rabelais.

Actually there is an area of France called Theleme ...http://www.theleme.net/
It is the area of Cannes, Le Cannet, Mandelieu-La Napoule, Théoule sur
Mer, Mougins etc.
  Rabelais was making a double entendre in the naming of his
"thelemites" which added a great deal of depth to his satire,
especially for those people who were familiar with the customs and
history of the area.

>Due to the times Rabelais lived in, he had to walk a fine line
>between blasphemy and self-preservation in order to express his
>ideals and not be killed for doing so. If Rabelais had had more
>freedom to express his ideas truthfully, he may very well have
>produced extreme anti-Christian literature similar to the Book of the
>Law.

This is doubtful. Rabelais was a member of the circle and enjoyed the
sponsorship of Marguerite of Navarre. If one looks at that circle,
they can glean that it was a hotbed for reform, but they were all
still striving to remain, basically, "good" Catholics. Marguerite was
the older sister of King Francis who outwardly promoted the Catholic
church's agenda ...more as a matter of politics than piousness... and
inwardly promoted the enlightenment ...as the last benefactor of
Leonardo Da Vinci as well as Erasmus, Rabelais, Nostradamus etc. more
usually through Marguerite. Marguerite published the 'Mirror of the
Sinful Soul' which is perhaps the first piece of distinctly 'feminist'
literature.  (It was translated into English by a young Elizabeth as a
gift to her new step mother) For publishing "Mirror", Marguerite was
condemned as a heretic by the Sorbonne, and in this instance Francis
overtly acted against the course of the church by making sure that
those who had mocked big sister caught some real hell. Generally
though, Francis upheld the wishes of the church and they
...sometimes... upheld his rights to certain territories and royal
claims. Marguerite was a mystical Christian and, as I said, a profound
influence on Rabelais. I get the sense that these people really more
opposed the dogma, and the greed ...the manifest lower qualities of
human nature... that were so prevalent within the clergy, and that
they were actually very spiritually, and very individually devout.
They most certainly were not "Satanists" or in any sense of the word
"anti-Christian" but strove instead to be exemplary Christians
...followers of the teachings in preference to and in spite of the
dogma of the organized religion.
Of course, there is no reason to suppose that they held only one
religious doctrine, and in fact, Maguerite's circle also seems to have
been a haven for the Cult of the Black Virgin, which venerated Isis in
the form of Mary ('who SHALL give birth to God' ...rather 'than who
has given birth to God.'')
  Of course, in Crowley's "Thelema" the Black Virgin has been co-opted
into Nuit/Laylah (Night.)

Bliss:
Alamantra

93! beast 333,

In a message dated 8/19/2005 12:44:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nagasiva@... writes:

> camlion@...:
> # Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that if Thelema did not have cults
> # as a vehicle,
>
> Thelema doesn't have cults as vehicles. sometimes Thelema inspires
> cults, or becomes so catalyzing as to instigate cults in its wake,
> but the cults are a spin-off byproduct, a promoted personality or
> mythology which may seek to glean attention from the potential
> of liberation that volition and its power contains. see below.
>
> # it would not be so easily misrepresented?
>
> the Method of Religion makes misrepresentations for the Herd.
>
> # Again, it seems to me that this same predicament, that of pearls
> # to swine, or of swine cults as the vehicle for pearls of Truth,
>
> not applicable. the Thelemic strand isn't doctrinal, and so the
> notion of it being related to Truth rather than to Reality is
> perverting. the pearls are stars of human volition, generating
> brilliance and genius and leaving a wake of transformative
> beneficence. the questionables will leave cults in their
> wake as intentional qliphotic shams.
>
> # has had ample historical precedent.
>
> not as far as Thelema is concerned. there's a few groups that
> seek to associate with the current of volition that is part
> of human experience and consciousness. some of these may
> have genius as some portion of their composition, but that
> they function as vehicles for any kinds of Truths is really
> undemonstrated (purported by the cults competing for attention).
>
>

My point is that what is happening with regard to the concept of Thelema
today is inevitable. It may or may not be unfortunate, to some degree, that is a
matter of opinion and perspective, and is therefore largely irrelevant.

The only question here, in my view, is whether or not the expenditure of
energy in the attempt to oppose this inevitability is the wisest use of that
energy. Those who would delude in the name of Thelema and those who would be
deluded in that name are not fit for the appreciation of Thelema. The weak are
many
and the strong are few and those are the facts. The exceptions to
participation in cultures of self-delusion are always a minority, and will
remain a
minority. They do not become such exceptions by heeding advise written in
internet
forums. To dedicate oneself to opposing the deluders in defense of the deluded
is to ignore the element of symbiosis inherent in that relationship.

As the rocket man wrote, freedom is a two-edged sword. He might have added
that it has no guard and no grip, that it is the natural appendage of the few
who take full responsibility for themselves. It cannot not be bequeathed, nor
can it be revoked, by another. (Nor has it the need for a cult of anti-Crowley
coming to its defense.)

93 93/93
Camlion


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, 333 <nagasiva@l...> wrote:
> "ByThor-6.1.8." <bythor_the_mage@y...>:
> #> An often overlooked Thelemite is Graham Bond,
> #> founder of the modern Rock Blues movement in England.
>
> please explain in what manner he is a Thelemite.
> does he belong to some cult? is he a devotee of
> Aleister Crowley? does he have some virtues or
> characteristics which you associate w/ Thelema?
>

The albums in question included anthems to Ra-Hoor-Khuit; a setting of
the Qabalistic Cross; etc. I may still have the vinyl around
somewhere. The content made me snap it up, though the music wasn't my
thing (but to find a composer with Thelemic sympathies who is my
thing, Peter Warlock would have had to survive (g)).

Paul

93

paulrhume wrote:
>
> --- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, 333 <nagasiva@l...> wrote:
> > "ByThor-6.1.8." <bythor_the_mage@y...>:
> > #> An often overlooked Thelemite is Graham Bond,
> > #> founder of the modern Rock Blues movement in England.

> The albums in question included anthems to Ra-Hoor-Khuit; a setting of
> the Qabalistic Cross; etc. I may still have the vinyl around
> somewhere. The content made me snap it up, though the music wasn't my
> thing (but to find a composer with Thelemic sympathies who is my
> thing, Peter Warlock would have had to survive (g)).

Both 'Holy Magick' and 'We Put Our Magick on You' are now available on
one CD. Definitely worth the money: these are easily the most successful
rock/Magick albums I have ever heard.

Of course the vast majority of 'occult-rock' music just plain sucks
(Current 93 anyone?) and the remainder isn't all that great. Let us
consider two recent attempts at setting 'Hymn to Pan' to music by Unto
Ashes and Coph Nia. They both suffer from the same mistaken assumption:
that for music to be 'occult' it MUST be  s l o w    a n d    s o n o r
o u s. The Coph Nia version is especially notable as it takes them over
8 minutes to do the entire poem. You just can't rave/rape/rip/rend to
it. Completely misses the point.

BTW for fans of my Kenneth Grant reviews (see
http://www.kiva.net/~julianus/typhonian.html if you haven't read them
yet) I finally got a copy of 'The Ninth Arch' and should have it
reviewed sometime around the equinox.

93 93/93

-- Julianus


“Nothing on the face of this earth -- and I do mean nothing --
is half so dangerous as a children’s story that happens to be
real, and you and I are wandering blindfolded through a myth
devised by a maniac.”
                                         -- Master Li Kao (T’ang Dynasty)

              *** John’s Creeping Homepage of Doom ***
               http://www.kiva.net/~julianus/main.html

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "paulrhume" <paulhume@m...>
wrote:
> --- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, 333 <nagasiva@l...> wrote:
> > "ByThor-6.1.8." <bythor_the_mage@y...>:
> > #> An often overlooked Thelemite is Graham Bond,
> > #> founder of the modern Rock Blues movement in England.
> >
> > please explain in what manner he is a Thelemite.
> > does he belong to some cult? is he a devotee of
> > Aleister Crowley? does he have some virtues or
> > characteristics which you associate w/ Thelema?
> >
>
> The albums in question included anthems to Ra-Hoor-Khuit; a
setting of
> the Qabalistic Cross; etc. I may still have the vinyl around
> somewhere. The content made me snap it up, though the music wasn't
my
> thing (but to find a composer with Thelemic sympathies who is my
> thing, Peter Warlock would have had to survive (g)).
>
> Paul


  When Graham Bond starts into the LaShtal chant...he gives it away
that he is steeped in Thelemic Magick. Lashtal is a word that only
exists in the Thelemic Tradition of Alister Crowley. I think this is
his rip off of the ideas that Achad brought forward...unless I am
mistaken.

Chris Titan

93,

333 wrote:
> "adityanatha" <aditya@...>:
> # Free Encyclopedia of Thelema is the first truly Free
> # Encyclopedia of Thelema.
>
> not established.

Indeed not. For example take a look at their "about" page, it explains
that FET is "a fork of Thelemapedia (http://www.thelemapedia.org/)
published by Scarlet Woman Lodge, OTO."

Neither wiki publishes copyright-protected material, and both are under
the Gnu FDL.

93 93/93
Joseph

93 Chris,

> When Graham Bond starts into the LaShtal chant...he gives it away
>that he is steeped in Thelemic Magick. Lashtal is a word that only
>exists in the Thelemic Tradition of Alister Crowley.

No, it's a spelling variation on a term from regular Jewish religious
practice, not even limited to Kabbalah.  La-stal is a qualifier for an
action that is considered holy in itself, not done for merit or ulterior
purpose.  In other words: "For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered
from the lust of result, is every way perfect." -- AL I,44.  I don't know
why Crowley used this particular spelling, but I conjecture that he either
tried to reproduce the word phonetically or wanted to design a variant with
letters arranged in a symbolic pattern.  Although the spelling is decidedly
different from Jewish usage, the sound is close enough and the meaning is
obviously the same.  Crowley attributes LASTAL to zero on the Key Scale of
Liber 777 Revised.  It is also characterized as the formula of the Abyss,
as indeed it is -- to pass the Abyss, one must be as a babe, without
attachment, taking every impression as a direct communication of the divine
with the soul.  Choronzon is the opposite in Crowley's usage, the tendency
to attach mundane or personal meaning to such impressions.

93 93/93
Bill

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, Julianus <julianus@k...> wrote:

> Of course the vast majority of 'occult-rock' music just plain sucks
> (Current 93 anyone?)

Some interesting works. Most recent works what I've heard complete
rubbish. Tibet is too flegmatic.


> and the remainder isn't all that great.

Coil is great, but Balance is dead now.
Not sure if he regarded himself a thelemite.

That's rather the problem, isn't it. A great artist
will automatically be doing his will so for him thelema
is nothing but distractive rubbish.

And the odds of there being an great artist amongs a crowd of,
say, 8000 people is quite minimal. That's why were lucky we have
Benders, even though he strongly denies any thelemic connections:

http://www.kannibaal.nl

Marq

Julianus:
> Some interesting works. Most recent works what I've heard complete
> rubbish. Tibet is too flegmatic.

He's not "Tibet" anymore and considers himself a Christian, spreading the
word, so to speak, as well.

>
> > and the remainder isn't all that great.
>
> Coil is great, but Balance is dead now.
> Not sure if he regarded himself a thelemite.

He didn't, AFAIK, but his influences did include Thelema and Crowley. Coil
was interviewed for Dutch Radio Supplement on June 18th, 2001 with a section
of the interview dealing with (mostly Balance's) view on Crowley. (see:
http://www.omroep.nl/nps/radio/supplement/01/0618/playlist.html and mp3's of
it are floating somewhere, Soulseek might be the place to look.)

> That's rather the problem, isn't it. A great artist
> will automatically be doing his will so for him thelema
> is nothing but distractive rubbish.

Or the artist does not feel any need to flat out spell out that s/he is a
Thelemite or has been influenced by Thelema. This doesn't mean the music
isn't, for lack of a better word and whatever it means, Thelemic, just that
there aren't obvious track titles or lyrics screaming: "Look at me, I know
certain keywords! Aren't I cool or what?".

+ link hint for today:
http://media.hyperreal.org/zines/est/intervs/lilith.html

F.


--
=   Work like magick  =

Lust, ein paar Euro nebenbei zu verdienen? Ohne Kosten, ohne Risiko!
Satte Provisionen für GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "marqswinkels"
<marqswinkels@y...> wrote:

>
> That's rather the problem, isn't it. A great artist
> will automatically be doing his will so for him thelema
> is nothing but distractive rubbish.
>
> And the odds of there being an great artist amongs a crowd of,
> say, 8000 people is quite minimal. That's why were lucky we have
> Benders, even though he strongly denies any thelemic connections:
>
> http://www.kannibaal.nl
>
> Marq



     the intention of art is to evoke an emotional reaction in its
audience. the "art" of evocation may be acheived by the application
of a skill set, a craft or trade. the success of such endeavors isn't
contingent upon the will of the practitioner. (uh-oh, here comes the
mob. :) )

    many who may be reguarded as artists are simply craftsmen. it is
not 'automatic' that a skilled crafts/tradesman is doing his will,
yet even as such, he may still consider 'thelema' to be nothing more
than distractive rubbish.

   hey, a man's gotta eat, right? let's face it: (in certain circles)
people are so desperate to find anything which to which they will
have an emotional response (or find validation through a
representation of themself in) that it can be like fishing in a
barrel for a skilled craftsman.

      imo, 1 in 8000 is a way off estimate. it just means that 7999
haven't found their art yet.

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "Faerie" <faerie@g...> wrote:

> He's not "Tibet" anymore and considers himself a Christian,
spreading the
> word, so to speak, as well.

Well it didn't exactly reduce his need of sounding flegmatic.

> > Coil is great, but Balance is dead now.
> > Not sure if he regarded himself a thelemite.
>
> He didn't, AFAIK, but his influences did include Thelema and
Crowley. Coil
> was interviewed for Dutch Radio Supplement on June 18th, 2001 with a
section
> of the interview dealing with (mostly Balance's) view on Crowley.

He agreed to be interviewed by me too, butI think I seriously pissed
him off with some of my questions that evolved around the rather
over-obvious 'occult symbolism' in their work and how, in my view,
this was a weakness rather than a strength. He never wrote back.


> > That's rather the problem, isn't it. A great artist
> > will automatically be doing his will so for him thelema
> > is nothing but distractive rubbish.
>
> Or the artist does not feel any need to flat out spell out that s/he
is a
> Thelemite or has been influenced by Thelema.

In my neck of the woods 'Thelemite' is a load of crap. Everybody is
already doing his will. Everybody is a thelemite. People that need
some sort of systemized religion embroided around their pillow-wills
are not exactly the cream of the crops. As I said, for an artist
'Thelema' is an abbrevation since it has nothing to do with art and it
is thus a distraction of their true will. Hence, 'Thelemic Art' is a
rather crappy term, since either all art is thelemic or,
alternatively, it would point to the sort of artists that need to
flaunt these sort of distractions of their true will in public for God
knows what reason.


>"Look at me, I know
> certain keywords! Aren't I cool or what?".

The idea that a song is 'Thelemic' because some dork shouts '93' in
the middle of it is so idiotic it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Marq

Alamantra <alamantra@g...> wrote:

>
> Actually there is an area of France called
> Theleme ...http://www.theleme.net/It is the area of Cannes, Le
> Cannet, Mandelieu-La Napoule, Théoule sur Mer, Mougins etc.
>  Rabelais was making a double entendre in the naming of his
> "thelemites" which added a great deal of depth to his satire,
> especially for those people who were familiar with the customs and
> history of the area.

   Outstanding, thanks for the confirmation.


   Prophet of L:

> >Due to the times Rabelais lived in, he had to walk a fine line
> >between blasphemy and self-preservation in order to express his
> >ideals and not be killed for doing so. If Rabelais had had more
> >freedom to express his ideas truthfully, he may very well have
> >produced extreme anti-Christian literature similar to the Book of
> >the Law.
>
> This is doubtful. Rabelais was a member of the circle and enjoyed
> the sponsorship of Marguerite of Navarre. If one looks at that
> circle, they can glean that it was a hotbed for reform, but they
> were all still striving to remain, basically, "good" Catholics.

   How can you tell whether they were *striving* or *pretending* to be
good Catholics? They really had no choice but to embrace religion
whether they liked it or not. It seems inconceivable that a sincere
Catholic could have created the concept of the Abbey of Theleme
without being a rebel to the core.

> Marguerite was the older sister of King Francis who outwardly
> promoted the Catholic church's agenda ...more as a matter of
> politics than piousness...

   So in other words she was pretending to be a good Catholic. ;-)

> and inwardly promoted the enlightenment...as the last benefactor of
> Leonardo Da Vinci as well as Erasmus, Rabelais, Nostradamus etc.
> more usually through Marguerite. Marguerite published the 'Mirror
> of the Sinful Soul' which is perhaps the first piece of
> distinctly 'feminist'literature.

   That doesn't sound like the act of a "good" Catholic to me. :-)

> (It was translated into English by a young Elizabeth as a
> gift to her new step mother) For publishing "Mirror", Marguerite was
> condemned as a heretic by the Sorbonne, and in this instance Francis
> overtly acted against the course of the church by making sure that
> those who had mocked big sister caught some real hell. Generally
> though, Francis upheld the wishes of the church and they
> ...sometimes... upheld his rights to certain territories and royal
> claims.

   Royalty has always been ethusiastic of, if not responsible for
religion, as it makes the perfect device for monitoring and
controlling the kingdom, but says little of the true convictions of
royalty.

> Marguerite was a mystical Christian and, as I said, a profound
> influence on Rabelais. I get the sense that these people really more
> opposed the dogma, and the greed ...the manifest lower qualities of
> human nature... that were so prevalent within the clergy, and that
> they were actually very spiritually, and very individually devout.

   I agree. The focus on good health, fine dress, fair-mindedness, and
non-interference are some of the exemplary spiritual qualities of
Rabelaisian Thelemites.

> They most certainly were not "Satanists" or in any sense of the word
> "anti-Christian" but strove instead to be exemplary Christians
> ...followers of the teachings in preference to and in spite of the
> dogma of the organized religion.

   Crowley was not a Satanist either, at least not by any conventional
meaning of the term. His modus operandi was to simply ignore standard
definitions and reinvent or modify things to suit himself, as in the
case of the Satan-Shaitan-Saturn-Set connection he formulated. It
sounds like Rabelais and company were doing *at least* the same
thing.

> Of course, there is no reason to suppose that they held only one
> religious doctrine,

   If they were "good" Catholics they would have.

> and in fact, Maguerite's circle also seems to have been a haven for
> the Cult of the Black Virgin, which venerated Isis in the form of
> Mary ('who SHALL give birth to God' ...rather 'than who has given
> birth to God.'')

   Sounds like another interest that made the royal sister something
contrary to a "good" Catholic.

>  Of course, in Crowley's "Thelema" the Black Virgin has been co-
> opted into Nuit/Laylah (Night.)

   If the Cult of the Black Virgin and the concept of Nuit as
portrayed in TBOTL are essentially the same, would it not make
Rabelais and the royal sister the same sort of rebel as Crowley?


  Prophet of L

  http://www.hakela.com

hi Camlion!

camlion@...:
# > # Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that if Thelema
# > # did not have cults as a vehicle,

333:
# > Thelema doesn't have cults as vehicles. sometimes Thelema inspires
# > cults, or becomes so catalyzing as to instigate cults in its wake,
# > but the cults are a spin-off byproduct, a promoted personality or
# > mythology which may seek to glean attention from the potential
# > of liberation that volition and its power contains. see below.
# >
# > # it would not be so easily misrepresented?
# >
# > the Method of Religion makes misrepresentations for the Herd.
# >
# > # Again, it seems to me that this same predicament, that of pearls
# > # to swine, or of swine cults as the vehicle for pearls of Truth,
# >
# > not applicable. the Thelemic strand isn't doctrinal, and so the
# > notion of it being related to Truth rather than to Reality is
# > perverting. the pearls are stars of human volition, generating
# > brilliance and genius and leaving a wake of transformative
# > beneficence. the questionables will leave cults in their
# > wake as intentional qliphotic shams.
# >
# > # has had ample historical precedent.
# >
# > not as far as Thelema is concerned. there's a few groups that
# > seek to associate with the current of volition that is part
# > of human experience and consciousness. some of these may
# > have genius as some portion of their composition, but that
# > they function as vehicles for any kinds of Truths is really
# > undemonstrated (purported by the cults competing for attention).

camlion@...:
# My point is that what is happening with regard to the concept of
# Thelema today is inevitable....

words have a way of becoming the tools of those who use them.

# The only question here, in my view, is whether or not
# the expenditure of energy in the attempt to oppose this
# inevitability is the wisest use of that energy.

currents, eddies, counter-currents: where is the wisdom train?

# Those who would delude in the name of Thelema and those
# who would be deluded in that name are not fit for the
# appreciation of Thelema.

they'll be muddled together with those who are all the same.
absent some faceted shewstone with which to see the Strong,
we can rest assured that they will largely be mistaken for
the Weak, especially provided the popular notion of what
constitutes Strength and ignoring more subtle alternatives.

# The weak are many and the strong are few and those are the
# facts.

I'm not so sure. what masquerades as strength or proves out
to be so may turn out to be a weakness in other contexts.
this facile notion of The Strong as one block of tigers can
only be waved on a banner for so long before it wears thin.

# The exceptions to participation in cultures of self-delusion
# are always a minority, and will remain a minority.

generally agreed, yes, until the bubble bursts. social
movements are catalyzed, stemmed, and abate, falling away.

# They do not become such exceptions by heeding advise written
# in internet forums.

my experience indicates that this is quite false. :)

# To dedicate oneself to opposing the deluders in defense
# of the deluded

this is a Straw Man. nobody is claiming this as their
dedication, though speaking against delusion may be an
overarching motivation in some who intersect with what
is *called* Thelema.

# is to ignore the element of symbiosis inherent in that
# relationship.

and the establishment of a certain elitism wherein we can
find High Ground and pontificate as to the inferiority of
those who are deluded. getting dirty and mussing with the
actual territory (rather than vague maps) is more difficult
and prone to dispatch such cludgy ideological girders.

# As the rocket man wrote, freedom is a two-edged sword.

did Parsons or others indicate whether this was some kind
of freedom *to do* something (license) or freedom *from*
something (protection)? these are very different ideas.
swords protect and provide license. muddlement around the
idea of freedom is nothing new, and tends to serve those
who promote the delusional paradigms, by distraction if
nothing else.

# He might have added that it has no guard and no grip,
# that it is the natural appendage of the few who take
# full responsibility for themselves.

those who take responsibility for themselves should be
afforded all manner of license? doesn't sound workable.
maybe I'm not understanding your expression arightly.
'taking full responsibility for oneself' is not a very
well-understood phrase, and tends to legitimate all
kinds of underhanded and truly horrific act. under
what authority will the responsibilities be delegated?

it reminds me of the LaVeyan contention:

	 "We don't worship Satan, we worship ourselves!"

whose followup, when asked, "And what is included
in that worship?" tends to be complete silence. it
is sufficient to give offense through wrangling.

# It cannot not be bequeathed, nor can it be revoked,
# by another. (Nor has it the need for a cult of
# anti-Crowley coming to its defense.)

completely agreed. the occasional hole-poking in visions
of liberty and extended options based on faulty axioms,
and repudiation of arrogance, makes plain that this is the
stuff of mud-wrestling in cult backwaters, fully grappling
with those whose options have become constrained to very
artificial norms. inserting Daliesque crutches, and
knocking out tenuous philosophic foundations comes
easily to those without investment in religion's method,
and need not require a great deal of effort to sustain,
especially within forums which allow such expression
(the religious usually moderate out unpopular views).

cults of anti-Crowley are not forming, to my knowledge.
instead, fully-formed cults have been excited in part
as a response to the stigmatized imagery and language
surrounding "The Beast" within the Religions of the Book
-- the man is a Satanist, an anti-Christian, and a moral
reprobate. with cults like Christianity and Islam arrayed
against him, we really won't need any others to form
strictly around their antagonism to Edward Alex and
his deceitful but flowery writings. those who demolish
the futile defenses of his de facto Satanism and his
anti-Christianity need not come from these religious
systems, though they may be projected there by his
quivering cultists, clinging to their Beast Saviour.

333

marqswinkels wrote:
> In my neck of the woods 'Thelemite' is a load of crap. Everybody is
> already doing his will. Everybody is a thelemite.

Uh? The way I see it is that nobody is doing his/her will all of the
time. Even the best get distracted, and many seem completely lost in
their lives.


> As I said, for an artist
> 'Thelema' is an abbrevation since it has nothing to do with art and it
> is thus a distraction of their true will. Hence, 'Thelemic Art' is a
> rather crappy term, since either all art is thelemic or,
> alternatively, it would point to the sort of artists that need to
> flaunt these sort of distractions of their true will in public for God
> knows what reason.

I would define "Thelemic art" as one that works as (or aids in)
communicating with one's so-called HGA.
Are we disagreeing on a mere semantic basis or is there perhaps
something I failed to understand?

Back to lurking...


Niko

PS. Feel free to decide whether any of my music would turn out
"Thelemic" for you:
http://nikoskorpio.net/
http://www.someplaceelse.net/
:-)

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, niko <niko@k...> wrote:
> marqswinkels wrote:

> > In my neck of the woods 'Thelemite' is a load of crap. Everybody is
> > already doing his will. Everybody is a thelemite.
>
> Uh? The way I see it is that nobody is doing his/her will all of the
> time. Even the best get distracted, and many seem completely lost in
> their lives.

Sounds like you're judging the people you encounter according to some
preset standards you're trying to apply to yourself. Like a guy who
tries to be a good christian and confesses that most people are lost
to the good shepherd he's trying to adhere to. Not very interesting.
The Universe either is a reflection of your self or it isn't. When it
isn't, the above is not an issue.

> I would define "Thelemic art" as one that works as (or aids in)
> communicating with one's so-called HGA.

Meaningless. This makes most art on the wall of restroom toilets
'Thelemic art'.

> PS. Feel free to decide whether any of my music would turn out
> "Thelemic" for you:
> http://nikoskorpio.net/

Listened to one sample. Atmospheric, pleasant, not very interesting or
original but good elevator music.

Marq

50050831 ix om

"Faerie" <faerie@g...>:
#> He's not "Tibet" anymore and considers himself a Christian,
#> spreading the word, so to speak, as well.

David Tibet, I think. I remember some clamour about him in the
Thelemic community of my intermittent acquaintance -- some of
whom were themselves musicians/artists and magicians. I was
occasionally given a tape or two for my private audience and
generally liked what I heard (though my favourite sources
were TOPYesque).


"marqswinkels" <marqswinkels@...> I think:
# > # Coil is great, but Balance is dead now.
# > # Not sure if he regarded himself a thelemite.
# >
# > He didn't, AFAIK, but his influences did include
# > Thelema and Crowley. Coil was interviewed for
# > Dutch Radio Supplement on June 18th, 2001 with
# > a section of the interview dealing with (mostly
# > Balance's) view on Crowley.

it sounds like people are dropping street *and*
performance names for these descriptions aside
from the band monikers. there seems to be some
kind of privacy-interest, even when speaking
about public figures, which surrounds it in a
type of velvety quietude. less accountability
to be held up to later, I suppose.

who is "Coil" and who is "Balance"?


"marqswinkels" <marqswinkels@...>:
# He agreed to be interviewed by me too, butI think I
# seriously pissed him off with some of my questions
# that evolved around the rather over-obvious 'occult
# symbolism' in their work and how, in my view, this
# was a weakness rather than a strength. He never wrote back.

understandable. why do you consider it a weakness?

# > # That's rather the problem, isn't it. A great artist
# > # will automatically be doing his will

how convenient. so great artists have no accountability
because they are consistently operating inside their
own personal virtuous 'orbit'.

# > # so for him thelema is nothing but distractive rubbish.

as a community or society sporting the name, I guess.

that there have been those amongst the throng contending
in support of Coil, Current 93, and others as 'Thelemic'
music surely do so according to a variety of standards.

Throbbing Gristle's "United" features a clear refrain
of "Love is the law", but is it 'Thelemic'? Ministry's
"Psalm 69" plays obviously off of the Book of Lies
including a reading from it as regards 'sucking seed
and sucking eggs', but is the *band* Thelemic, just
that song, or is the whole just a venture into Crowley?

without the kinds of specificity surrounding quali-
fiers of 'Thelemitude' all that will really be shown
off by these slams is whether the taste of the person
doing the review intersects with that of the artist(s).

few have the capacity to do a thorough review of an
artist's work justice as it approaches any given
standard (similar to film reviews in which a play-by-
play of the plot is vomitted without anything more
meaningful supplied to the assaulted reader).

# > Or the artist does not feel any need to flat out
# > spell out that s/he is a Thelemite or has been
# > influenced by Thelema.
#
# In my neck of the woods 'Thelemite' is a load of crap.

and yet it could be so much more than a load of crap.

# Everybody is already doing his will. Everybody is a
# thelemite.

a helpful distinction between a Thelemite (crap)
and a thelemite (doing their will) I suppose.

# People that need some sort of systemized religion
# embroided around their pillow-wills

that in no way is required in order to use the term
as Crowley and others did so in a complimentary way.
that you want to change this so everyone can qualify
is similar to consider the exercize of volition to
BE magic -- by this method even idiots can do it.

# are not exactly the cream of the crops.

true, but somewhat of a non-sequitur.

# As I said, for an artist 'Thelema' is an
# abbrevation since it has nothing to do with art

your contentions about this are very interesting.
you say Thelema has nothing to do with art. yet it
(one's will) is something that "everybody is already
doing", and so presumably art would be part of that.

# and it is thus a distraction of their true will.

make up your mind. can people be distracted from
their true will (and thus not be thelemites) or not?
usually the distinction of *orientation* to the true
will is mentioned and then an elitist evaluation of
All Those Who Are On My 'A' List Qualify does it.

# Hence, 'Thelemic Art' is a rather crappy term,
# since either all art is thelemic or,

does artistry *derive* from doing one's true will?
this is all muddled by the variety of theories and
terminologies employed. it helps keep the plebes
in a state of ignorance and willing to Serve.
can one do one's *will*, one's *true will*, and
are these somehow different or at variance?

# alternatively, it would point to the sort of
# artists that need to flaunt these sort of
# distractions of their true will in public
# for God knows what reason.

if (your) God knows, perhaps it's a good one.

#> "Look at me, I know certain keywords!
#>  Aren't I cool or what?".
#
# The idea that a song is 'Thelemic' because some
# dork shouts '93' in the middle of it

COMPLETELY tenable. dorks can be Thelemic too,
even by your standards (since everyone does
their will).

# is so idiotic it would be funny if it wasn't
# so pathetic.

it's effectively the same kind of logic which
has 'Thelemites' doing 'Gnostic Masses' and
'Resh' ceremonies, vowing to serve 'Baphomet',
engaging ordeals in hierarchic churchy orders,
podging together pseudo-kabbalistic 'Enochian'
activities, and consuming sexual fluids in
corrupted Black Mass ceremonies stripped from
the nightmares of Christians, attributed to
Hermes Trismegistus, Appollonius, Trithemius,
or some even more fictional worthy.

maybe your God can tell us why they do it.

333

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, 333 <nagasiva@l...> wrote:
> hi Camlion!
>
> camlion@a...:
> # > # Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that if Thelema
> # > # did not have cults as a vehicle,

You'll pardon me if I butt in my two cents worth. Hopefully. My
comments are mainly in response to 333's responses.

333 as all,

Hello!

<snip for brevity>
> currents, eddies, counter-currents: where is the wisdom train?

Where is the kundalini express? ;)

<snip for brevity>

> with cults like Christianity and Islam arrayed
> against him,

The only group I've seen try to take issue with AC and try to
actively oppose his viewpoints, methods, etc. are the Fundies. And
they do a rather shoddy job of it, getting most of their facts wrong,
and arguing on a very superficial level when they aren't misquoting
or quoting out of context. Character assassination and simple ad
hominem is the normal fare I've seen. Not much else besides. But I
admit, I've not read every text available in the universe, so it is
quite possible I'm missing something vital. Care to recommend
anything in these regards (i.e. groups that bother to counter AC's
Zen Gnosticism)? I'd love to be more informed on the topic.

> those who demolish
> the futile defenses of his de facto Satanism

What is a 'de facto Satanism?'

> and his
> anti-Christianity

His 'anti-Christianity' is really much less interesting, most of the
time, when compared to Nietzsche's own efforts here. Not the main
event in regards to AC. His Zen (A)Gnosticism OTOH (all of which try
to stand outside of systems in general, Christian, Buddhist, pagan,
theist, or whatever) is rather the pearl of great price, IMNSHO.

> need not come from these religious
> systems, though they may be projected there by his
> quivering cultists, clinging to their Beast Saviour.

Oh, come now. Most anyone who could possibly be characterized this
way (i.e. 'clinging to their Beast Savior') most likely wouldn't give
a shit (at least I hope not!). So, what's the real meaning of the
dull barb? Or is it just a dull barb?

'Cultist' has consistently had a seeming negative connotation in your
usage, lately. Is there a reason for this you'd be willing to
divulge? Aren't 'cultists' responsible for some culture? Isn't some
of their culture worth lauding, or in some cases fairly neutral?

By the way: One of the main draws to Thelema (of the Crowleyan
variety) for me has always been the fact that it /isn't/ popular, and
isn't likely to be all that popular (on a relative scale) any time
soon. Less interesting was the supposedly 'Anti-Christian' bent.

Urantia was/ is also intriguing to me for this reason. Ditto Buddhism
and Hinduism. Ditto reading, and intellectual pursuits in general.
Now, I am only wondering why things that are 'different' are such a
draw to me? Anyone familiar with this type of psychology/ mindset?

>
> 333

Mabopsa87

--- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, 333 <nagasiva@l...> wrote:

> it sounds like people are dropping street *and*
> performance names for these descriptions aside
> from the band monikers. there seems to be some
> kind of privacy-interest, even when speaking
> about public figures, which surrounds it in a
> type of velvety quietude. less accountability
> to be held up to later, I suppose.

7 lines, 49 words. All just to say: 'Who is that? Never heard of him.'
Not efficient means of communication, pointing at one who is deluded
or not literate enough to produce effective writings.

> who is "Coil" and who is "Balance"?

Who is Crowley? Who is Benders?
Get a browser, mate.

> how convenient. so great artists have no accountability
> because they are consistently operating inside their
> own personal virtuous 'orbit'.

Accountability? Is that like surfing the net with a baud modem?


> that in no way is required in order to use the term
> as Crowley and others did so in a complimentary way.
> that you want to change this so everyone can qualify
> is similar to consider the exercize of volition to
> BE magic -- by this method even idiots can do it.

Sure, every idiot can do magic, and they do it all the time.
You are a good example. Never done anything worth mentioning, yet here
you are, producing page after page of kitchentable philosophies to a
crowd that falls asleep every time they see your name. You're likely
the greatest somniamagician that ever roamed amongst the dreadfull
Baudites, but will you ever know?

Marq

>>>In my neck of the woods 'Thelemite' is a load of crap. Everybody is
>>>already doing his will. Everybody is a thelemite.
>>
>>Uh? The way I see it is that nobody is doing his/her will all of the
>>time. Even the best get distracted, and many seem completely lost in
>>their lives.
>
> Sounds like you're judging the people you encounter according to some
> preset standards you're trying to apply to yourself.

I don't judge.

When you say that everybody is already doing his will, how do you define
this will and the doing of it?


>>I would define "Thelemic art" as one that works as (or aids in)
>>communicating with one's so-called HGA.
>
> Meaningless. This makes most art on the wall of restroom toilets
> 'Thelemic art'.

But not all?

Niko