50000712 Vom

heidrick@...:
>> If you want to discuss things spiritually alone, easier I
>> think to abstain from material tags.

teitan666@...:
> What do we call it then? I mean hell, OTO exists only on the
> plane of disks, no higher.

inasmuch as the membership of any OTO contains human beings,
it would be difficult to say how far the organization extends
into the aethyrs. the 'plane of disks' pertains only to the
monetary and administrative details. initiations can be
emotional, intellectual, passionate (cups, swords, wands),
and spiritual (trumps).

> How about we call the OTO MMM as a spiritual entity of the
> plane of disks?

too simplistic.

>> The issue of Golden Dawn and trademark is hotly disputed just now,
>> and A.'.A.'. hasn't even entered the fray. :-)
>
> That was not the point. The point was when someone says Golden Dawn
> there are so many Golden Dawn groups. Cicero, Hyatt, Monnastre,
> Zalewski etc.

the AA doesn't have groups. it is constituted, apparently, of a
number of individual relationships, established by the Secret Chiefs
(or Celestial Masters or whatever you want to call them) and flowing
down into human connection. there is only one AA, though it may have
many different social manifestations.

one good argument against "AA lineages" is that there can be no
affirmation concerning the authority of any particular initiation
within the AA. one must take it for granted that those who identify
themselves as a part of it are enthused by the spirit of the Current,
as it were, to provide the necessary impetus to the candidate for
the initiation of their spiritual development.

>> After all, the outer order of the A.'.A.'. is not OTO in "One Star
>> in Sight". It's the G.'.D.'.
>
> I agree on one plane, but after Neophyte, the system of the A.'.A.'.
> becomes a higher plane. OTO is just another manifestation of an outer
> order, promulgating the Law of Thelema for the A.'.A.'.

stuff and nonsense, the Order of the Temple of the East is not an
'outer order' for any inner order beyond it. it is in fact an
initiatic membership organization housing many varieties of means
to promulgate the Law of Thelema and provide assistance in the
identification and adherence to the true will.

> ...Are there other groups in the world using
> the OTO system of initiation and magick, legitimately or not,

you previously defined "OTO system of initiation and magick" as:

Practicing the OTO initiation rituals, using the OTO
constitution and order set up. Essentially using the
OTO system as originally envisioned by Crowley and
written about in Equinox III no 1 and various other places.

if "the OTO initiation rituals" are assessed by current admin,
then no other groups in the world are so practicing because
outside the context of their authority these rituals become
"non-OTO". it is rather easy to understand how your questions
will and have been answered.

if "the OTO constitution" is one particular constitution, which
today incorporates changes established by 'our order' (that is,
the order of whoever is speaking), then no other groups are
probably using this as it is currently developed because it has
changed significantly since it was first expressed.

the 'original envisioning' is of course disputed, and how this
vision is understood will determine whether someone considers
their practical manifestation to be true to Crowley's vision
(if they even care that it is).

the OTO is larger and more important than Crowley, and we ought
remain aware that many before and after him have contributed to
the organization in bringing it where it stands today. limiting
the vision simply to Crowley would be myopic, yet ignoring him
completely would be folly.

blessed beast!
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