Dear Ferida, Dear Friends,

it's been a long time since I haven't participated in this conference, I really
missed you all and it is nice to see you again!

Unfortunately I did not receive any of the TMG messages for the last couple of
months, and when I checked my mailbox I found only the recent ones, and your
message, Dear Ferida (with comments on comments), caught my attention instantly.

I did not have a chance to see either your original posting or the comments that
Antero may have expressed, that is why I am somehow limited as I do not want to
repeat what may have already been said here.

However I would like to post also my point of view on two topics that are most
important to me:

1. Social expectations and Tatar marriages
2. Indoctrination of children as Tatars

I stress once again that this is my personal position, very subjective, of
course, and it in no way pretends to be generally correct.

I think that social, and most of all family expectations may play a great role
in all small communities which want to keep their members close together. Take
any national minority of this kind and you'd notice the same symptoms: girls
going out with strangers enjoy a certain pressure from everyone, so do boys
dating outsider girlfriends.

On the other hand, if a couple happens to belong to one and the same community
it is a complete disaster for them: they can't really behave normally, they
physically feel the burden of everybody's attention to their progress, starting
with mother's questions like: "So when are you going to get us acquainted with
your friend, we think he is nice and could be a good spouse for you..." and
continuing with your neighbor old ladies saying around: "Aren't they a nice
young pair, they perfectly fit each other".

I must tell you honestly: this is terrific and maybe this explains partially why
Tatar guys are probably not so eager about Tatar girls.

From my own experience I can tell you that I was brought up real serious: pure
Tatar marriage was what I was decided to achieve and what I was willing to get
at. At the university I learned one nice Tatar girl, I liked her, maybe she did
too - I do not know. We were meeting each other and everything was going fine
until I made two mistakes: I told my parents about her and I went to see her
parents, both things too early. After that we were finished.

There had been millions of questions from each side, me and she were probed in
all possible way, but after this complicated procedure both families might have
decided that a couple was good. So they started putting pressure, apparently
trying to accelerate the acquaintance, arranging dates for us, giving perfect
chances to be alone, and even starting conversations like "Did you ever think of
marriage? Oh, not yet? Well, it's a good time right now, we see that you like
each other, you are good with each other, why don't you?"

Frankly, I don't like this kind of determination, I suppose she didn't like it
too, so we quit. But even now, after 4 years my parents still remind me that she
was such a nice girl ans that I have missed my life chance.

There was another Tatar girl at the university I met afterwards, but when I
started seeing her more often I noticed again the sudden interest of my and her
families to us and not wanting the situation to repeat we stopped dating at
once.

And now, Dear Ferida, frankly I don't know. On one hand, I have this
'preinstalled' objective to marry a Tatar girl to make a happy Tatar family and
to make also my parents happy. But on the other hand I don't like when my and
her own future is decided on the family scales without my and her direct
participation, and this is very often the case in Tatar communities.

But I really think that a Tatar family is something I also want more for myself
than a mixed family. The only hard thing is to find a Tatar girl not affected by
community's close attention to her dates and to her family happiness. But I am
still trying, still don't give up. Sorry about so many details on my personal
life.

As for the Tatar indoctrination of children I'd take the side that the child
must have the right to choose. The parents are to guide and to lead him, but not
to force him into Tatarity, or Jewity, or Christianity whatsoever. There are
things that must be taught even forcibly: e.g. some of the Ten Commandments, but
not the community membership, nope.

Of course, it is almost always not the case in reality.

Good, if the child after having grown up likes the measures that his parents
have taken to determine his destiny. This is nice, although you never know
whether the parents may have killed certain feelings and desires in this child
by being hard and insistant.

But what if the child hates this destiny? Or even more complicated: what if he
isn't satisfied with his parents' decision, but because he loves them, he obeys
and virtually ruins his own life?

I understand that there may be millions of arguments defending any point of
view, but still I insist that the child must have the right to choose.

Didn't you think that being determined to keep the community close together is
also the root for the social expectation that hampers Tatar marriages? I better
let my children learn an Asian language and marry a Japanese or Hindu if they
want so rather than to determine their life in such a terrible way.

All the above was not meant personally, it's just my own opinion on this general
subject.

Yours
Roustam Rakhmatouline


-----
See the original message at http://www.egroups.com/list/tatar-l/?start=14
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Hi,

I'd like to subscribe, but still receive my TMG mail via another account
if possible.  I'd like (...) TMG stuff sent to tony.lad@...--if
possible.

Ferida

______________________________________________________
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-----Original Message-----
From: Suzy Ashraf <SEVENOAKSLIMITED@...>
To: uh3ukhe@... <uh3ukhe@...>
Date: 21 November 1998 11:06
Subject: Re: Selam


>As-salamu Alaikum, Ihsan
>
>I am not aware of any problem.  My e-mail below is correct.
>
>And I have not received your message yesterday.  I hope you have not
deleted
>it! ;>

If the problem persists, try sa_13@...
>
>Suzy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ihsan Yokus <>
>To: Suzy Ashraf <SEVENOAKSLIMITED@...>
>Date: 21 November 1998 10:36
>Subject: Selam
>
>
>>Selam Suzy
>>It seems that there is a problem with your address.
>>Did you receive my mail from yesterday ?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Ihsan Y.
>
>



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Russia: Overview Of The Republic Of Bashkortostan - An Oil
Region
     (long)


Sent by: JRobinson - BISNIS - U.S. Department of Commerce - Washington,
D.C.

OVERVIEW OF THE REPUBLIC OF BASHKORTOSTAN

  Prepared by Alexander Gordienko BISNIS Representative Nizhny Novgorod,
  Russia October 1998


The Republic of Bashkortostan is located in the Southern part of the
Urals along the line of Europe and Asia. Its area is 143,600 sq. m. As
of January 1, 1995 the population of Bashkortostan was 4.097 million
people. The capital is Ufa is with a population of 1.1 million
residents. The republic has 54 administrative areas ("rayons") and 21
cities. Other large cities include Sterlitamak (256,000 inhabitants),
Salavat (155,000), Nefetekamsk (123,000), Oktyabrsky (108,000).
Representatives of 70 nations and ethnicities live in the Republic of
Bashkortostan, including Russians (39.3 percent), Tatars (28.4 percent)
and Bashkirs (21.9 percent). The urban population constitutes 65
percent of the total.

The Republic of Bashkortostan is a sovereign state under the
jurisdiction of the Russian Federation. The President of the Republic
of Bashkortostan is the head of state. The Republic has a Parliament,
Kurultay of the Republic of Bashkortostan,  which consists of  two
Houses - the House of Representatives and the Legislative House. The
Cabinet of Ministers of the Republic of Bashkortostan represents the
Government.


Natural Resources

The main natural assets are oil and gas. Overall, approximately 250 oil
and 10 gas deposits have been explored in Bashkortostan. In addition,
the republic has substantial reserves of ferrous and non-ferrous ore,
coal, woods, phosphorites, dolomites, gypsum, building rocks.  Other
natural resources include gold, silver, cobalt and other rare metals.


Industry

Bashkortostan ranks second after the Sverdlov region by industrial
potential in the Urals economic area. It produces 2.6 percent of the
Russian Domestic Product.  It ranks 6th (3.6 percent) throughout Russia
by industrial output. According to the Russian Statistics Committee,
the Republic's industry accounts for 39.1 percent of the regional
domestic product and 45 percent of the Republic's revenues.

The major industry sectors are oil production and oil processing,
production and processing of coal, chemical/petrochemical sector,
machine-building/metal-working, ferrous/non-ferrous metallurgy. Other
industries encompass energy generation, the  food sector, light
industry, lumber/wood-working, pharmaceutical sector and building
materials. The Republic's industry primarily specializes in the
production of raw materials and semi-finished products for further
processing in other Russian regions. Bashkortostan produces 100 percent
of the synthetic fat spirits produces throughout Russia, over 60
percent of calcined soda, 27 percent of rubber, 24 percent of caustic
soda, 23 percent of polyethylene, 24 percent of light bulbs, 18 percent
of metal-cutting machine-tools, 20 percent of automobile gasoline,
diesel fuel, fuel oil etc. The available refinery capacity allows the
processing of up to 50 million tons of crude oil and production in
excess of 300 petrochemicals.

The local oil and petrochemical sector is represented by such companies
as Ishimbay oil refinery, Novaya Ufa oil refinery,
Salavatnefteorgsintez oil refinery, Ufaneftekhim chemical company,
Salavat petrochemical company, Sterlitamak Rubber Plant, Sterlitamak
Chemical Plant and some others.  The chemical/petrochemical sector is
comprised of organic synthesis production, production of synthetic
resin, plastic, rubber, varnish, paint and some other chemicals. It is
mostly concentrated in the Ufa and Sterlitamak-Salavat industrial
nodes. The republic annually produces 1.1 million tons of coal, around
17 million tons of oil, over 400 million cubic m.  of natural gas,
250,000 tons of fertilizers, 116,000 tons of polyethylene.

A good number of machine-building companies specialize in manufacturing
production equipment for the oil, gas, chemical and petrochemical
sectors.  Bashkortostan also has suppliers of automobile parts and
components for VAZ and KamAz as well as manufacturers of dump trucks
and utility trucks for carriage of concrete.

The food sector is comprised of 120 companies of 15 sub-sectors,
including three spirits and liquor distilleries.

Bashkortostan has considerable lumber resources (6.3 million hectares).
Forests mainly grow in the Northern and Eastern part of the Republic
and cover more than 40 percent of its territory.  Lumber serves for the
production of building materials, veneer, matches, furniture, storage
containers. The chemical treatment of lumber is an underdeveloped
industry in the region. In excess of 70 percent of wood products are
shipped to other Russian areas.

Ferrous and non-ferrous metallurgy is one of the oldest sectors in
Bashkortostan. Non-ferrous metallurgy is represented (up to 90 percent)
by Beloretsk Metallurgical Plant. Producers of ferrous metals are
located in the Urals economic area of the Republic. The annual
production of steel is 200,000 tons.


Agribusiness

The agricultural land amounts to 7.4 million hectares (51.6 percent of
the total land), 4.8 million hectares are plowed fields, 672,000
hectares are hayfields, 1.8 million hectares are pastures. The
agribusiness accounts for 4.2 percent of the Russian agricultural
produce (4th place among Russian regions). In 1995 the share of grains
in the produce was 19.8 percent, meat - 25.7 percent (pork, beef,
poultry, mutton, horse meat), milk - 21.6 percent, sugar beet roots -
11.3 percent, eggs - 8.3 percent, vegetables - 2.4 percent, potatoes -
0.6 percent, sunflower seeds - 1.0 percent, wool - 0.2 percent, honey -
0.1 percent, berries - 0.1 percent. The average yield of grains is 20
-21 centners per hectare. (1 centner equals 100 kg). The annual
production of grains is 3.5 million tons. The annual production of
honey is 25,000 centners. Internal waters total 160,000 hectares, 650
hectares of which is utilized for fish-breeding.


Food and Food-Processing Sector

Up to 80 percent of food products consumed by the local population is
produced within Bashkortostan. The product line of local
food-processing companies encompasses meat, milk/dairy products, eggs,
bread/confectionery, alcoholic beverages and soft drinks, fish, sugar
etc.  The Government of the Republic of Bashkortostan maintains price
control over food staples.


Energy

As of 1994, 471 thermal electric plants operated in Bashkortostan with
a capacity of 5 million kWt. Every year 25 billion kWt/hour of electric
power is produced in the Republic.  The largest energy supplier is
Bashkirenergo which generates 98.3 of the electric power in the
Republic. It works in conjunction with other Russian regional electric
power systems and is part of the Russian United Energy System grid.


Transport

Western and Northern Russian areas are connected to the Urals and
Siberia via rail which traverses the Bashkir territory.

At the end of 1995 the overall length of railroads for common
applications was 1,518 km. In addition, there are 1, 370 km of
railroads which are used by local companies and organizations for their
operational needs. In 1995 the majority of freight and passengers were
carried by rail.

The overall length of highways for common use is 24,309 km, 20,793 km
of which are hard-topped roads.  The most important highways are  Ufa -
Sterlitamak, Ufa - Beloretsk, Ufa - Birsk - Yanaul, Sterlitamak -
Rayevka - Belebey - Tuymazy - Bugulma.

The key waterways are the Belaya and Ufa rivers. The total length of
waterways is 954 km.

Bashkortostan is connected to 70 Russian cities via air.  The
Republic's air carrier, Bashkir Air Lines, transports 1.0 million
passengers and 5,000 tons of cargo annually. There is a direct flight
from Moscow to Ufa.

Oil and gas is supplied to refineries and petrochemical companies via
pipelines. It is also pumped to Siberia and Kazakhstan, the Orenburg
region, Samara region, Tatarstan, Central Russia and further. In 1995
the overall length of pipelines throughout Bashkortostan was 3,750 km.

Education, Research and Development

There are 11 higher educational institutions (institutes, universities,
academies) in the Republic of Bashkortostan. They train students in 169
specialties.  All higher educational institutions have post-graduate
studies.

Fundamental research in various branches of science is conducted by the
Oil Processing Research Institute, Oil Production Efficiency Research
Institute, Petrochemistry and Catalysis Research Institute, Energy
Resources Transportation Research Institute and some others.


Foreign Trade

In 1996 the foreign trade turnover raised by 10 percent compared to
1995 and totaled US$ 2.6 billion.  Exports were worth US$ 2.224
billion. In 1995 Bashkortostan exported goods in the amount of US$
1.889. In 1997 the foreign trade turnover amounted to US$2.5 billion,
83 percent of which was exports. The key exportable products are oil
and oil products (75 percent), petrochemicals (12 percent),
machine-building products (3.1 percent), non-ferrous metal products
(1-1.5 percent).  The major Bashkir exporters include the oil company
Bashneft, oil refineries Ufaneftekhim, Novoil, Salavatnefteorgsintez
and the Ufa oil refinery. The main exporters in the machine-building
sector is Kumertau Aircraft-Building Plant, Ufa Machine-Building
Plant.  The Beloretsk Metallurgical Plant is the leading company in
exporting non-ferrous metal products.

The most important importing firms are from Great Britain, Panama,
Germany, Ireland, Latvia, Switzerland, Finland, Cyprus, Sweden, China,
and Italy.

In 1996 US$ 426 million worth of products were imported in the Republic
of Bashkortostan. In 1997 imports totaled US$ 346.2 million.  Goods
with the highest percentage of imports are:
machines/equipment/vehicles (45 percent); chemicals (13.4 percent);
foods (9.9 percent); metals (10.1 percent).  The major exporters are
from such countries as Italy, Germany, Turkey, Hungary, Finland, Japan,
France and the USA.

Three hundred twenty-three joint ventures have been registered in
Bashkortostan, 174 of which have been actively operating in the
Republic. They include 22 American companies which entered in joint
venture partnership with local companies or established their
representative offices in the Republic. JV partners represent 54
countries, including Germany, Austria, the USA, Canada, Turkey,
Bulgaria and Poland. Joint Ventures produce such goods as
petrochemicals, construction materials, home appliances, floor
coverings, fur clothing, knitwear, food, sport shoes and some others.
In 1997 the production output of joint ventures and 100 % -owned
foreign companies accounted for 0.5 percent of the Republic's domestic
product, 1 percent of the retail trade and over 7 percent of the
wholesale trade. They also exported US$ 5 million worth of products and
imported goods in the amount of US$ 10 million.


Foreign Investments

According to the Bashkir Ministry of Foreign Relations and Commerce,
in 1997 direct foreign investments totaled US$20.6 million. Some
sectors that occurred in include: light industry (US$726,400); food
industry (US$7,199,900); transport (US$1,200); the building sector
(US$975); communications (US$295,300). The most significant investment
came from British investors - US$8.2 million. In addition, the local
companies borrowed loans of US$111.8 million.


Tax breaks and Benefits for Foreign Investors and Companies with
Foreign Investments

Over the past 2-3 years the Republic of Bashkortostan adopted a number
of laws which provide incentives to foreign investors. They include:

- Law # 130 On Foreign Investment Activities in the Republic of
Bashkortostan.(12/15/97)

Under this law, companies with foreign investments exceeding 30 percent
of their charter capital and with revenues exceeding 70 percent of
overall sales are entitled to:

1. Exemption from the profit tax payable to the budget of Bashkortostan
within 2 years  from the registration date; 1.1 Reduction of the profit
tax rate payable to the Republic's budget by 25 and 50 percent during
the 3rd and 4th years respectively from the registration date;

The said companies with foreign investments operating in top priority
industry sectors are entitled to:

2. Exemption from the profit tax payable to the budget of Bashkortostan
within 3 years from the registration date; 2.1 Reduction of the profit
tax rate payable to the Republic's budget by 25 and 50 percent during
the 4th and 5th years from the registration date; 2.2  After 5 years
from the registration date companies with foreign investments pay the
profit tax in full.

The aforementioned companies with foreign investments will be exempted
from the property tax paid to the republic's budget within 3 years from
the registration date. From the 4th year on the property tax will be
paid in full.

Decree of the President of the Republic of Bashkortostan On
Establishment of the Economic Favorable Treatment Zone Aguidel
(06/04/96)

Profit tax payments to the republican budget of companies which operate
in the territory of Bashkortostan and invest in resident enterprises in
the favorable treatment economic zone Aguidel will be reduced by the
amount of capital investments. Local enterprises which receive
investments will be exempt from the profit tax paid to the republican
budget.  Resident enterprises of the favorable treatment economic zone
Aguidel will be exempted from the property tax, the road user tax, the
vehicle purchase tax, vehicle owner tax and some others. Resident
enterprises may be accorded a tax amnesty. Goods which were produced in
the zone Aguidel will be exempted from export customs duties except
customs dues. Goods which are imported to the zone Aguidel will be
exempted from import customs duties except customs dues.

Decree of the President of  the Republic of Bashkortostan On
Establishment of the Favorable Treatment Economic Zone Kumertau
(10/09/96)

If resident companies increase sales by 10 percent in one year after
the registration, they will be given a 2 year VAT exemption paid to the
republican and local budget. The profit of credit organizations
generated by lending  loans to resident enterprises at an interest rate
not higher than 1/3 of that set by the National Bank of Bashkortostan
will not be taxable to the republican budget within  the  maturity term
provided the loan is used for capital investments. Profit tax payments
to the republican budget of companies which operate in the territory of
Bashkortostan and invest in resident enterprises of the zone Kumertau
will be reduced by the amount of capital investments. The stated sum
should not decrease the actual tax payment calculated without tax
benefits by more than 50 percent. Resident enterprises will be 10 - 100
percent exempted from the profit tax paid to the republican budget.
Small-sized businesses which make investments in priority business
areas will pay 50 percent taxes paid to the republican budget. The road
user tax paid to the republican budget will be decreased by 10 - 100
percent. Companies will entirely be free of the property, vehicle
purchase, vehicle owner tax and a few other taxes. Regardless of
ownership forms, a 50 percent lease discount will be given to all
companies.  A tax amnesty may be granted to resident companies.  Goods
which are made in the economic zone Kumertau and exported to other
countries will be free of tax duties (except customs dues).  Products
imported to the economic zone Kumertau from other countries will be
exempt from import customs duties (except customs dues).

- Resolution of the Presidium of the Ufa City Council (04/16/97) On
Incentives to Attract Foreign Investments in enterprises and projects
of Ufa.

In addition to benefits under the current legislation, companies with
foreign investors' equity shares or wholly owned by foreign investors
which implement investment projects in Ufa will enjoy the following
benefits:

1. If investments exceed US$5 million, land, real estate, equipment
lease will be reduced by 70 percent within 1-5 years. Investors will be
exempt from city taxes.

2. If investments range from US$2 million to US$5 million, land, real
estate, equipment lease will be lessened by 50 percent within 1-3
years. Investors will be free of city taxes.

3. If investments range from US$0.1 million to US$2 million, land, real
estate, equipment lease will be reduced by 30 percent within 1-3 years.
Investors will be free of city taxes.

Key Contacts:

  1. Ministry of Foreign  Relations and Commerce, Republic of
  Bashkortostan 450101 Bashkortostan, Ufa ul. Tukayeva 46 Tel: (3472)
  50-68-80, 50-68-83 Fax: (3472) 50-68-70

  2. Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Republic of Bashkortostan 450008
  Bashkortostan, Ufa Ul. Tsuryupy 13 Tel: (3472) 53-24-02, 52-53-27

  3. Department of Foreign Economic Relations, Ufa City Administration
  450098 Ufa  Prospekt Oktyabrya 120 Tel: (3472)31-83-38, 33-52-31

  4. President Hotel, Ufa Republic of Bashkortostan 450092 Ufa, ul.
  Avrory 2 Tel: (3472) 53-63-43, 53-60-47, 53-64-71, 53-64-55, 53-64-39
  Fax: (3472) 53-60-47, 53-02-22

  5. Novaya Ufa oil refinery (NOVOIL) Bashkortostan, 450037, Ufa Tel:
  (3472) 35-82-50 Fax: (3472) 35-83-10

  6. Salavatnefteorgsintez oil refinery 453200, Bashkortostan, Salavat-6
  Tel: (34763) 4-78-99, 4-42-07 Fax: (095) 220-78-31

  7. Gazprom Bashkir branch Bashtransgaz 450054, Bashkortostan, Ufa ul.
  Zorge 59 Tel: (3472) 37-05-60, 37-18-00, 37-20-88, 37-34-72 Fax:
  (3472) 37-56-40

  8. Bashneft oil company 450008, Bashkortostan,Ufa Tel: (3472)
  22-96-82, 23-46-86 Fax: (3472) 23-19-26

  9. Ufaneftekhim petrochemical company 450045, Bashkortostan, Ufa Tel:
  (3472) 42-47-14 Fax: (3472) 43-22-22

*Copied from the TRKNWS-L
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The following is a rough translation of the pertinant parts of an
article appearing in a Turkish Newspaper ZAMAN on No. 21, 1998

TATARSTAN DEMANDS MORE RIGHTS

Subsequent to Kalmikiya another member of the Russian Federation
demanded further distancing from the center. In a statement to Itar-Tass
President Mintimur Shaymeyev stated that Moscow is taking to many
responsibilities on itself and that she should give more of these rights
to the republics.Previously Shaymeyev wanted to obtain independence
however later reached agreement with Russia. He stated that Moscow due
to its own crisis cannot resolve the problems of the Republics.
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Selem Sabirjan!

>Isn't this what Tatarstan is supposed to be doing?

In short interview Mintimer Shaimiev supported the threatment
of Kirsan Iljumzinov. He said that Russian goverment should pay
more attention to peripheral republics.

Almaz.




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Hi!

I've made some changes to my guestbook.
Now it is fully relocated to the hypermart.net and amount
of messages is limited only by available free disk space
(11Mb at current time). After achieving this peak
the oldest messages will be removed.
Please be patient, I am just a beginner with Perl scripting
and there may be some bugs.
Welcome!   http://vlab.hypermart.net/tatar.html

Best regards,
Almaz






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Dear Sewim:

In response to your inquiry, I heard that Cengiz Dagci passed away
in London about a month ago.  This is all the information I have.
Perhaps some of the list members may know more about this sad piece
of news.  Selamlar, // Inci


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Dear Sabirzyan,

Zsusza is familiar with my views and feels helpless to interfere.  Her task
is to play the challenger.  Alisa, unfortunately doesn't have e-mail.  FIDE
is run by its President Iljumzinov who can make a decision unilaterally.
What is interesting about this unfortunate situation is that Iljumzinov has
NOT stepped into support Alisa in though he was familiar with all the
details of the RCF bid for half the match.  It is all rather disheartening.
Even the USCF cannot help the situation other than by its vote.  It is
necessary that the individual's federation, in this case the RCF, that must
make an appeal.  It is this same RCF which sabotaged Alisa in the first
place!

Kind Regards,

Yasser

-----Original Message-----
From: Sabirzyanb@... [mailto:Sabirzyanb@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Galliamova's misfortune


Dear Mr. Seirawan,

I read with interest your editorial comment in the November issue and share
your concern about Alisa's misfortune.  Can anything be done in this
situation?  Perhaps it make sense to send e-mails to Ms. Polgar and urge her
to let Ms. Galliamova have a match with her Chinese counterpart?  If your
answer is yes, then would you, by any chance, know Ms. Polgar's and Ms.
Galliamova's e-mail addresses?

sincerely,
Sabirzyan Badretdin



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Greetings / Selamlar !

Can any of you please provide me with the telephone number and/or
address for:

Mr. Cengis Dagci (as in Jengis Daaji), last known to be in London, UK?


thanks,
Mr. Sevim Ablay
847-576-6179
email:   C11591@...

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If you are going to be an essentialist, please note that the names of all
the bad guys are Ukrainian, and not Russian. If that doesn't matter
because it's a Slavic thing, then it should be specified that we are
reading about "Slavic" character. And, if Slavs are going to be
vilified, one should be aware that Slavs and Turks have been intermarrying
since at least the tenth century. What I am trying to say is not that this
report is not horrifying, and that these men are not committing
atrocities, but that I do not think that "Russian character" is to blame.

Yours respectfully,

Helen Faller


On Fri, 20 Nov 1998, Ihsan Yokus wrote:

> Below you can read something about Russian character:
>
> > >From Habarlar-L Azerbaijan News List
> > ***************************************
> > November 15, 1998
> >
> >           Where Russians Are Hurting, Racism Takes Root
> >
> >           Related Articles
> >           Issue in Depth: Russia's Turmoil
> >
> >           Forum
> >           Join a Discussion on Russia's Turmoil
> >
> >           By CELESTINE BOHLEN
> >
> >                RASNODAR, Russia -- Here, along Russia's
> > southern border,
> >                where refugees from a crumbling empire have
> > settled in the ruins of
> >           the local economy, it does not take much to
> > disturb the festering sores of
> >           Russian nationalism.
> >
> >           All it takes is an enemy.
> >
> >           For Nikolai Kondratenko, a Communist-Nationalist
> > elected governor of
> >           the Krasnodar region in 1996, that enemy is
> > Zionism -- or rather what he
> >           calls "zionacrats," using a new code word for Jews
> > in government, finance
> >           and the news media. According to Kondratenko and
> > like-minded
> >           Russians, these Jews are part of a sinister
> > worldwide conspiracy to bring
> >           Russia to its knees.
> >
> >           For local Cossacks, descendants of the
> > swashbuckling czarist horsemen
> >           who have been assigned by Kondratenko to help
> > police the region, the
> >           enemy can be Armenians, Turks, Chechens -- any
> > nonethnic Russians
> >           who have had the temerity to move here, laying
> > themselves open to
> >           charges they are responsible for crimes ranging
> > >from rape to epidemics of
> >           head lice.
> >
> >           The Cossacks patrol regularly, checking documents
> > to see who has
> >           complied with the region's arcane residency
> > requirements, specially
> >           written to ward off unwanted strangers.
> >
> >           International human rights groups have put
> > Krasnodar and neighboring
> >           Stavropol on a watch list, a move that local
> > atamans, or Cossack
> >           chieftains, shrug off with a hearty laugh.
> >
> >           "I have had a hundred human rights complaints
> > registered against me
> >           personally," said Ivan Bezugly, a radical ataman
> > whose Tamansky
> >           Division is spread over eight districts, his
> > booming voice ricocheting off
> >           the walls of an office covered in Cossack flags.
> > "What do you want me to
> >           tell you -- that I personally burned down the
> > homes of Turks because of
> >           their outrageous behavior? Even if I didn't, I
> > have 44,000 Cossacks at
> >           my command who would."
> >
> >           Kondratenko, for his part, has chosen a more
> > distant scapegoat, albeit
> >           one historically favored by Russian nationalists.
> > Like his fellow
> >           anti-Semites in Moscow, whose recent diatribes
> > have set off a national
> >           scandal, Kondratenko attacks "yids" -- the word is
> > a Russian slur for Jew
> >           -- with total impunity, despite laws that forbid
> > the fomenting of racist
> >           hatred.
> >
> >           The local Jewish population, now only 1,500 after
> > a decade of steady
> >           emigration to Israel, fears that unless someone
> > steps in to halt the
> >           governor's regular rantings about dark Zionist
> > plots, the words will
> >           eventually spread to action.
> >
> >           "Now, we don't feel anything -- not at work, in
> > the schools or on the
> >           streets," said Alexander Kaplan, deputy head of
> > Shalom, a cultural
> >           organization. "But these things happen in stages.
> > German nationalism
> >           started 15 years before Hitler came to power."
> >
> >           At the heart of Kondratenko's conspiracy theory is
> > the prominent
> >           positions held by a number of Russian Jews, some
> > of whom were
> >           architects of Russia's recent economic reforms,
> > others the so-called
> >           oligarchs who have amassed fortunes and political
> > influence since 1991.
> >
> >           Two weeks ago, at a local ceremony honoring the
> > 80th anniversary of the
> >           now-defunct Communist Youth league, Kondratenko
> > let loose again.
> >           "Why haven't we revolted against that scum, a
> > bunch of people for whom
> >           Russia, Russians, patriotism, the land of Russia
> > is something alien?" he
> >           said. "Their policy is the losing one, and those
> > who will continue torturing
> >           Russian will burn more than just their tongues."
> >
> >           Kondratenko's stated convictions are shared by
> > members of his team,
> >           which was elected by more than 80 percent of the
> > vote in a region of five
> >           million people. If nothing else, their shared
> > conspiracy theory -- rooted in
> >           czarist-era paranoia about imagined Judeo-Masonic
> > cults, and
> >           Communist-era labeling of Jews as a distinct
> > nationality -- serves as a
> >           simple-minded explanation of why one of the
> > richest agricultural regions in
> >           Russia has suffered so badly during Russia's
> > seven-year experiment with
> >           economic reform.
> >
> >           "What is the result of Zionism?" asked Deputy
> > Governor Nikolai
> >           Kharchenko. "The result is the collapse of Russia.
> > Native Russians never
> >           would have allowed all these reforms to happen. Of
> > course, it is all
> >           coordinated."
> >
> >           The litany of economic failure here, particularly
> > after this year's
> >           drought-stricken grain harvest, is echoed across
> > much of Russia. Industry
> >           is in a slump and agricultural production has
> > dropped so low that
> >           Krasnodar, fearing more hardship this winter, has
> > taken the legally
> >           dubious step of blocking farmers who have not paid
> > back credits to the
> >           local government from "exporting" their grain
> > beyond the region's
> >           borders.
> >
> >           The region also feels the strain of the migrations
> > that began in the late
> >           1980s as the Soviet Union was collapsing. By
> > official reckoning, about
> >           half a million new residents, most of them ethnic
> > Russians, have moved
> >           here, drawn by Krasnodar's moderate climate and
> > its rich black earth.
> >
> >           To stem the influx, the region has instituted
> > stringent residency
> >           requirements, skirting a recent ruling by the
> > Russian Constitutional Court
> >           that bars residency permits within the Russian
> > federation. Various
> >           nationalities here have fallen under varying sets
> > of rules: ethnic Russians,
> >           for instance, can be registered provided they find
> > a place to live -- a
> >           requirement that tens of thousands of ethnic
> > Russian refugees from the
> >           war in Chechnya say they do not have the cash to
> > meet.
> >
> >           Of all the groups that have drifted into Krasnodar
> > in the last decade, the
> >           Meskhetian Turks are the most unfortunate.
> > Deported en masse from
> >           their homes in Soviet Georgia by Stalin during
> > World War II, they were
> >           deposited in Central Asia where, in 1989, they
> > were forced to flee from a
> >           pogrom by Uzbek nationalists. Russia has pressed
> > Georgia to take them
> >           back, but it has refused.
> >
> >           As one of the 13,000 Meskhetian Turks in
> > Krasnodar, Tamal Miradov is
> >           a regular target for local police and Cossack
> > vigilantes. Without Russian
> >           citizenship, or permanent residence, he cannot
> > find work and cannot even
> >           legally sell the house he bought when he moved
> > here nine years ago. To
> >           keep his documents in order, Miradov must either
> > register as a "guest"
> >           every 45 days at a cost of 180 rubles (about $12),
> > or pay a fine of 400
> >           rubles each time he is caught by police or Cossack
> > patrols.
> >
> >           "They don't let us go, they don't let us stay,"
> > said Miradov, who recently
> >           made a quick dash up the local highway to visit
> > his parents in a
> >           neighboring village, his eyes peeled for Cossack
> > patrols. "If I see the
> >           police, or the Cossacks, I have to hide."
> >
> >           But some local officials are clearly fed up with
> > the kind of "help" they get
> >           from the Cossacks, who strut the street in
> > camouflage uniforms adorned
> >           by the odd 19th-century accessory.
> >
> >           "There are 78 nationalities living in our
> > district," said a police official in the
> >           Krymsky district, where Bezugly has his
> > headquarters. "And crimes are
> >           committed by everyone -- Armenians, Turks, Greeks
> > and Cossacks. We
> >           work with the Cossacks, but now they walk around,
> > with handcuffs and
> >           nightsticks, and extort money, claiming to be a
> > security service."
> >
> >           In Anapa, a down-at-heel resort town on the Black
> > Sea, local Cossacks
> >           like to boast about how they administer their own
> > justice against an
> >           Armenian population, whom they blame for 70
> > percent of local crimes,
> >           including six rapes that they say were never
> > prosecuted because of
> >           corruption.
> >
> >           Nikolai Nesterenko, who gave up his job as an
> > archeologist to become a
> >           deputy ataman in Anapa, is happy to show off the
> > plaited leather whips
> >           that he says his volunteers have used against
> > offending Armenians. "These
> >           are the traditional methods of our grandfathers,"
> > he said proudly.
> >
> >           But a local police official, who declined to give
> > his name, refuted the
> >           Cossacks' claims that Armenians commit most of the
> > crime. "You think I
> >           don't know who is spreading these rumors," he
> > said. "For the most part,
> >           these things are not confirmed."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com
>

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Ravil efende, kaderle duslar!

There was a technical mistake in the previous message.

Please, try the correct address of the Radio Azatlyk:

			 http://www.rferl.org/bd/tb

for the RealAudio listening: www.rferl.org/bd/tb/tb-realaudio.html
for the Daily News from Tatarstan: www.rferl.org/bd/tb/reports/today.html
for the News Archives: www.rferl.org/bd/tb/reports/archives/index.html

Good listening!
Ali Gilmi


From: selihmet@... on Fri, Nov 20, 1998 04:07
>>
>> My posting of October 17, 1998 begged TMG participants to drop
>> accusatory format and redirect our efforts to free Tatarstan from
>> Russian domination. One of the first steps was to pressure Tatar
>> deputies to address parliament in Tatar. For those who are interested in
>> this campaign and have Real Radio capability, my understanding is  that
>> this Sunday, Azatlik Radio will pause this question to some Tatar
>> deputies. It will be interesting to hear the question and responses.
>> This will be heard at 11 am and 3 pm EST at
>> http://webdevel.rferl.org/bd/tb/index.html
>> Good listening!
>> Ravil Selihmet

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Thanks for the informative nature of your post Antero.  I enjoy the way
you disseminated my post to make your point.  Now, if you will allow me,
I'd like to 'comment on your comments'. :-)

> For>example, my little sister is married with an American Lithuanian.
She>speaks Finnish to her sons, her husband speaks Lithuanian to them,
and>the parents speak English to each other. This works well out, and
there>is absolutely no need for responsible parents to choose a
uniform>language.

I liked your example here but it is just one example. Let me show you a
few others.  I have a very proud Greek friend who married an Indonesian
guy.  They live in Jakarta now and have two children.  My friend always
used to say that she'd raise her kids as proud Greeks despite who she
married.  She still is a proud Greek and still attends the Greek church
in Jakarta.  Her children I noticed recently, do not speak Greek nor
Indonesian.  They speak English, only because that is what the parents
speak. When their "Ya-Ya" (grandma) spoke to them in Greek, they didn't
understand.  Sadly, I guess it's easier for my friend if they speak
English. But if she'd kept to her word, the kids would've spoke
Indonesian with their dad, Greek with her and English to them both.

Example number two:  An Italian friend of mine married an Albanian guy.
Her two boys speak English only.  They might understand the odd Italian
and Albanian word, but that is only because of the influence of their
grandmothers (ie their 'baby-sitters).

I could go on with a few more of these type of examples, but I guess
I've made my point.  You and your sister are inspiring examples but not
the norm I believe (am I showing my stubborness? ;-)

>I consider it mere hypocricy to put the blame on mixed marriages,
when>it obviously depends merely on the awareness and firmness of the
Tatar>parent, whether Tatar identity is transmitted to younger
generations or>not.

Agree with you again.  But I don't put the blame soley ! on mixed
marriages.  I might have implied that, but I did not say that.  Like
you, I think it depends a lot on the strength of character of the Tatar
parent.

>their choice and doomed lost for the Tatar nation. Some Tatar women
in>Finland get married quite late or never at all because they are
afraid>of failure to meet social expectations - and if they ultimately
do marry>a non-Tatar (or even a Tatar, I might argue), they may feel
that there>is no need anymore to stress their Tatar identity.

Very interesting point you raised here Antero.  I could almost write an
entire thesis on this matter. But for the sake of brevity...

Speaking as a Tatar woman with many single female (and male) friends,
there are a lot of dynamics to contend with.  Of course, there is that
social expectation to deal with. But it exists in most cultures that are
isolated from their original homeland.  Most of my Greek friends are
'expected' to marry Greeks, as too are my Jewish friends and so on.
That's part and parcel of living within a strong ethnic community.

As for when a Tatar does actually marry another Tatar, and there's no
need to "stress their identity" any further, I've seen that too.  I have
cousins like that.  Marry a Tatar and you've done what your parents have
expected of you.  I've met the children of these cousins of mine and I
can't communicate with them because I don't speak Turkish, nor Russian
and they don't speak a word of Tatar.  And yet both their parents are
proud Tatars!  A sad irony.

Another thing you didn't touch on (which I can because it's one that I
can personally relate to) is that for a lot of single Tatar women in
diaspora, it's hard to 'date' a Tatar.  First there is the lack of
potential suitors.  I know of many a girl who'd like to meet a Tatar guy
but can't find one they like. I'm not quite sure why it is, but it
appears (I could be wrong) that Tatar guys aren't as keen to marry Tatar
girls than vice-versa.  Like I said, I could be wrong.

From what I'm currently seeing (hearing about), the only real
opportunity exists with Tatar guys who've come out of a failed marriage
and are now looking for their ideal (Tatar) wife. What they often don't
realise is that some girls aren't looking for a divorced man, or a man
with 'baggage'.  This is not necessarily my opinion, but an opinion held
by a few.

Then there are other 'pressures'.  When two Tatars do get together, a
lot of expectation is placed on them.  Suddenly the community gets wind
of the romance and the 'talking' begins.  Suddenly everyone awaits a
wedding announcement.  The couple can't conduct a normal relationship
because 'all eyes' are on them.  Sometimes (sadly) these relationships
don't survive because of that 'underlying' pressure.  Sometimes they
just don't work out period!  Two Tatars don't necessarily make a perfect
couple--a perfect union-simply because they're Tatar.  No one is that
naive...But they're rarely given the chance to court openly because
there IS that expectation on them.  Why is it there to begin with?
Because the surrounding Tatar community hopes to see a Tatar marriage.

I currently know of a couple 'dating' but it's very hard for them to do
so.  Unfortunately they have to do it in a somewhat clandestine manner.
Problem is they can't conduct their relationship openly for fear of word
spreading.  Do we call that a catch 22 situation? Am not sure...

Enough said.  Like I said, I could go on, and on...and on... ;-)

>camps in Estonia or Russia, where Finnish Tatars too would send
their>children (at least such have not been advertised)

But there is such a camp held in Kazan. It's called Selet.  But it's up
to you guys in Kazan to publicise it on this forum.  I'm sure Jeff Cole
or Nazira Karamova would be happy to hook you up to the relevant people.

>These are very good instructions. However, I would like to add, do
not>make it feel like a duty: "You MUST speak Tatar... You MAY NOT
eat>pork...

Err...umm...sorry Antero, but we aren't allowed to eak Pork!  It's not
an option.  Though I guess I'm referring here to we Muslim Tatars.

You SHOULD play with Tatar kids and marry Tatar spouses..."! If
>Tatar identity (religion, language, all the culture) is considered
too>restricting, the reaction would be either denial or lack of spirits.

Or alternatively, the child grows up to embrace his culture even more
(as with me!)

It>should be a privilege to be born a Tatar (or a Finn, or Lithuanian,
or>Armenian, or whatever), widening up your choices in the world, and
not>an embarrassment.

Yes Antero, in an ideal world it should.  But it's not always seen as a
privilige.  Just look at the Aboriginal Australians. Only now can you
see them voicing their pride. For years they chose (not always
willingly) to deny their ancestory.  Sad but true. They should be proud
of their Aboriginality, but many aren't. Fortunately now though, they're
embracing their culture more and more, and many are now turning their
backs on 'civilization' (that we wrongfully imposed on them) and
returning to the nomadic life-styles of their ancestors. Good on them!
:-)

If you>think, that you HAVE TO indoctrinate your kids as Tatars, and
that they>would not become good Tatars out of free choice, you are
actually not>proud but unsecure about your identity, and the sense of
desperation (as well as capitulation) will be felt by children too.

Totally disagree there!  If you HAVE TO indoctrinate (I like to call it
INSTILLING) your kids as Tatars, it's because you are proud of your
culture. Not as you believe, insecure about your indentity.  Insecure
identity leads to apathy.

If this supposed "insecurity and sense of desperation..." is felt by the
children too, then explain me and many others?  It's only BECAUSE of our
parent's strong will and constant nuturing of Tatar pride, that I didn't
become just another boring Australian.

If my wonderful mother decided to take the easier option (as some of her
Tatar friends did here), then perhaps I too would not speak, nor write
the language. Perhaps I too would marry an Australian, give my child an
Anglo Saxon name and raise my child as a Christian because that would be
by far the easier option.  In Australia we call that a cop out.

My mother was (and is) too proud (stubborn Tatar pride?) a woman to do
that.  Insecure?  Never!  DETERMINED...yes!

>> him Tatar tele.  (Believe me, as a child I hated it.  I tried all the
>> excuses..."eni, bashym awerta"..."eni, echym awerta...".  But in
>> hindsight what she did was invaluble.)
>
>You see what I mean? Why should a child hate, if his/her mother
tells>stories? Usually, children love attention, and if they are very
small,>they do not care about the language at all.

I didn't HATE the stories Antero.  I just hated the studying aspect of
it. The homework I had to do!   Show me a child who loves homework!
Given the choice to study or play (that was my choice) what option do
you think they'd choose? (rhetorical I know...)

You don't get the point I'm trying to make; it wasn't 'story telling'.
It was me sitting in front of my mum's old text books, and learning (in
an Arabic script!) Tatar alphabet, Tatar poems etc.  All under her
watchful and stern eye.

>watching for Santa Claus, etc. Some Tatars (like my wife) feel uneasy
>about this, because it reminds them of what they did not have and
could>not do in their youth.

If it's of any comfort to your wife Antero, my mother took me to see
Santa Claus in a Russian Orthodox Church all throughout my early
childhood.  She didn't have a problem with it. It didn't affect my Tatar
upbringing at all.  But in all honesty, I hated it.  Hated the smell of
the church and hated going up to this complete stranger to receive my
gift. But mum and I still enjoy going into town to see the Christmas
decorations each year.

>PS: Some times I wonder, what are "real" Tatar names? I have heard
only>of Arabian, Persian, and Turkish names - and we choose the latter
for>our kids, because a part of being Tatar is being Turkish.

Sorry Antero, don't you mean Turkic?  I am of Turkic origins, but
contrary to what some Turkish people I've met here TELL me, I am NOT
Turkish.  There is a difference.

Thanks for your input again Antero.  Nice to see a non-Tatar put in this
much effort.  Pity more Tatars don't take a leaf out of your book...

Ferida

P.S Ihsan, if you're reading this, thanks for your letter but my letters
to you keep bouncing back. Problem is on your end.


______________________________________________________
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Ravil,
You missed my point in this discussion:

THE WAR IS GOING TO SWIPE OFF ALL THE INDUSTRY, INCLUDING PETROCHEMICAL,
OFF THE TATAR LAND and BRING US TO THE GLOBAL CATASTROPHY.

Venera.

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Folks:

First, our thanks to Iskender for establishing the new TATAR-L. May we
grow and become "wiser," as we continue to communicate with each other
via the cyberspace!

Some of you may remember that we had a lively discussion about Tatar
foods a couple of years ago: Manti, pilmen, peremetch, chee-boerek, and
koebete. Some of you were eager to share your ideas and experiences,
and I learned a lot from you about the regional variations and names of
these dishes.

I am now in Istanbul, and yesterday I happened to visit a large shopping
center, near Silivri, about 70 km west of downtown Istanbul. The food
court looked just like what one would expect to see at a shopping center
in the US: Fried chicken, pizza, Burger King, etc.  But next to the
Burger King, there was a place called "Ayso," which offered traditional
Tatar foods for reasonable prices, about $3 per serving:

        3 pieces of chee-boerek (like peremetch) + Coca Cola
        or
        Manti (like pilmen) + Coca Cola

Admittedly, there are many specialty restaurants in Istanbul where one
can find Tatar foods.  But their availability at a US-style shopping
center can only indicate their popularity with the local Turks.

In case you are feeling nostalgic about Tatar foods now, you can find
a few recipes that I have placed at SOTA's Crimean Tatar Web site:

   http://www.euronet.nl/users/sota/recipes.html

If you would like to share a recipe with us, I urge to do so.  If you
follow the format given for the other recipes, we can even place it
on the Web!

All the best, // Inci Bowman


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Below you can read something about Russian character:

> >From Habarlar-L Azerbaijan News List
> ***************************************
> November 15, 1998
>
>           Where Russians Are Hurting, Racism Takes Root
>
>           Related Articles
>           Issue in Depth: Russia's Turmoil
>
>           Forum
>           Join a Discussion on Russia's Turmoil
>
>           By CELESTINE BOHLEN
>
>                RASNODAR, Russia -- Here, along Russia's
> southern border,
>                where refugees from a crumbling empire have
> settled in the ruins of
>           the local economy, it does not take much to
> disturb the festering sores of
>           Russian nationalism.
>
>           All it takes is an enemy.
>
>           For Nikolai Kondratenko, a Communist-Nationalist
> elected governor of
>           the Krasnodar region in 1996, that enemy is
> Zionism -- or rather what he
>           calls "zionacrats," using a new code word for Jews
> in government, finance
>           and the news media. According to Kondratenko and
> like-minded
>           Russians, these Jews are part of a sinister
> worldwide conspiracy to bring
>           Russia to its knees.
>
>           For local Cossacks, descendants of the
> swashbuckling czarist horsemen
>           who have been assigned by Kondratenko to help
> police the region, the
>           enemy can be Armenians, Turks, Chechens -- any
> nonethnic Russians
>           who have had the temerity to move here, laying
> themselves open to
>           charges they are responsible for crimes ranging
> >from rape to epidemics of
>           head lice.
>
>           The Cossacks patrol regularly, checking documents
> to see who has
>           complied with the region's arcane residency
> requirements, specially
>           written to ward off unwanted strangers.
>
>           International human rights groups have put
> Krasnodar and neighboring
>           Stavropol on a watch list, a move that local
> atamans, or Cossack
>           chieftains, shrug off with a hearty laugh.
>
>           "I have had a hundred human rights complaints
> registered against me
>           personally," said Ivan Bezugly, a radical ataman
> whose Tamansky
>           Division is spread over eight districts, his
> booming voice ricocheting off
>           the walls of an office covered in Cossack flags.
> "What do you want me to
>           tell you -- that I personally burned down the
> homes of Turks because of
>           their outrageous behavior? Even if I didn't, I
> have 44,000 Cossacks at
>           my command who would."
>
>           Kondratenko, for his part, has chosen a more
> distant scapegoat, albeit
>           one historically favored by Russian nationalists.
> Like his fellow
>           anti-Semites in Moscow, whose recent diatribes
> have set off a national
>           scandal, Kondratenko attacks "yids" -- the word is
> a Russian slur for Jew
>           -- with total impunity, despite laws that forbid
> the fomenting of racist
>           hatred.
>
>           The local Jewish population, now only 1,500 after
> a decade of steady
>           emigration to Israel, fears that unless someone
> steps in to halt the
>           governor's regular rantings about dark Zionist
> plots, the words will
>           eventually spread to action.
>
>           "Now, we don't feel anything -- not at work, in
> the schools or on the
>           streets," said Alexander Kaplan, deputy head of
> Shalom, a cultural
>           organization. "But these things happen in stages.
> German nationalism
>           started 15 years before Hitler came to power."
>
>           At the heart of Kondratenko's conspiracy theory is
> the prominent
>           positions held by a number of Russian Jews, some
> of whom were
>           architects of Russia's recent economic reforms,
> others the so-called
>           oligarchs who have amassed fortunes and political
> influence since 1991.
>
>           Two weeks ago, at a local ceremony honoring the
> 80th anniversary of the
>           now-defunct Communist Youth league, Kondratenko
> let loose again.
>           "Why haven't we revolted against that scum, a
> bunch of people for whom
>           Russia, Russians, patriotism, the land of Russia
> is something alien?" he
>           said. "Their policy is the losing one, and those
> who will continue torturing
>           Russian will burn more than just their tongues."
>
>           Kondratenko's stated convictions are shared by
> members of his team,
>           which was elected by more than 80 percent of the
> vote in a region of five
>           million people. If nothing else, their shared
> conspiracy theory -- rooted in
>           czarist-era paranoia about imagined Judeo-Masonic
> cults, and
>           Communist-era labeling of Jews as a distinct
> nationality -- serves as a
>           simple-minded explanation of why one of the
> richest agricultural regions in
>           Russia has suffered so badly during Russia's
> seven-year experiment with
>           economic reform.
>
>           "What is the result of Zionism?" asked Deputy
> Governor Nikolai
>           Kharchenko. "The result is the collapse of Russia.
> Native Russians never
>           would have allowed all these reforms to happen. Of
> course, it is all
>           coordinated."
>
>           The litany of economic failure here, particularly
> after this year's
>           drought-stricken grain harvest, is echoed across
> much of Russia. Industry
>           is in a slump and agricultural production has
> dropped so low that
>           Krasnodar, fearing more hardship this winter, has
> taken the legally
>           dubious step of blocking farmers who have not paid
> back credits to the
>           local government from "exporting" their grain
> beyond the region's
>           borders.
>
>           The region also feels the strain of the migrations
> that began in the late
>           1980s as the Soviet Union was collapsing. By
> official reckoning, about
>           half a million new residents, most of them ethnic
> Russians, have moved
>           here, drawn by Krasnodar's moderate climate and
> its rich black earth.
>
>           To stem the influx, the region has instituted
> stringent residency
>           requirements, skirting a recent ruling by the
> Russian Constitutional Court
>           that bars residency permits within the Russian
> federation. Various
>           nationalities here have fallen under varying sets
> of rules: ethnic Russians,
>           for instance, can be registered provided they find
> a place to live -- a
>           requirement that tens of thousands of ethnic
> Russian refugees from the
>           war in Chechnya say they do not have the cash to
> meet.
>
>           Of all the groups that have drifted into Krasnodar
> in the last decade, the
>           Meskhetian Turks are the most unfortunate.
> Deported en masse from
>           their homes in Soviet Georgia by Stalin during
> World War II, they were
>           deposited in Central Asia where, in 1989, they
> were forced to flee from a
>           pogrom by Uzbek nationalists. Russia has pressed
> Georgia to take them
>           back, but it has refused.
>
>           As one of the 13,000 Meskhetian Turks in
> Krasnodar, Tamal Miradov is
>           a regular target for local police and Cossack
> vigilantes. Without Russian
>           citizenship, or permanent residence, he cannot
> find work and cannot even
>           legally sell the house he bought when he moved
> here nine years ago. To
>           keep his documents in order, Miradov must either
> register as a "guest"
>           every 45 days at a cost of 180 rubles (about $12),
> or pay a fine of 400
>           rubles each time he is caught by police or Cossack
> patrols.
>
>           "They don't let us go, they don't let us stay,"
> said Miradov, who recently
>           made a quick dash up the local highway to visit
> his parents in a
>           neighboring village, his eyes peeled for Cossack
> patrols. "If I see the
>           police, or the Cossacks, I have to hide."
>
>           But some local officials are clearly fed up with
> the kind of "help" they get
>           from the Cossacks, who strut the street in
> camouflage uniforms adorned
>           by the odd 19th-century accessory.
>
>           "There are 78 nationalities living in our
> district," said a police official in the
>           Krymsky district, where Bezugly has his
> headquarters. "And crimes are
>           committed by everyone -- Armenians, Turks, Greeks
> and Cossacks. We
>           work with the Cossacks, but now they walk around,
> with handcuffs and
>           nightsticks, and extort money, claiming to be a
> security service."
>
>           In Anapa, a down-at-heel resort town on the Black
> Sea, local Cossacks
>           like to boast about how they administer their own
> justice against an
>           Armenian population, whom they blame for 70
> percent of local crimes,
>           including six rapes that they say were never
> prosecuted because of
>           corruption.
>
>           Nikolai Nesterenko, who gave up his job as an
> archeologist to become a
>           deputy ataman in Anapa, is happy to show off the
> plaited leather whips
>           that he says his volunteers have used against
> offending Armenians. "These
>           are the traditional methods of our grandfathers,"
> he said proudly.
>
>           But a local police official, who declined to give
> his name, refuted the
>           Cossacks' claims that Armenians commit most of the
> crime. "You think I
>           don't know who is spreading these rumors," he
> said. "For the most part,
>           these things are not confirmed."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
> Although  personally disagree with numerous of Venera Jourayeva's
> postings I welcome her decission to remain in our group. Venera often
> brings up sensitive subjects that initiate good discussions.
> Plan to prove in my next several postings that I have not missed some of
> the pertinant points.
> In this posting would like to continue on Venera's queery as who gained
> in the exchane of oil versus industry.
> None of us would disagree that Tatarstan's hydro-carbon resourses are
> one of its greatest asset. Oil experts say that Tatarstan production is
> comparable to 50% of Kuwait's , as there are other additional
> similarities we will make a comparison of the two nations.
> In brief the facts on Tatarstan's oil are as follows:
> Production started in 1943, and from late 1960's till late 1970's ( 10
> years) they produced approx. 30% of all the oil in the USSR. Production
> peaked at 100 million tons(712million bbl's) then from mid 1980's to mid
> 1990's due to the maturity of the wells began a decline. The present
> production is between 23-24 million tons. It is estimated that Tatarstan
> roduced approx. 2 billion 600 million tons to date, as prices fluctuated
> drastically in oil I took an average price of $ 15 per bbl. and based on
> this price we can surmise that their average revenue per year would have
> equated to $ 5.55 billion a year! However if my memory serves me right
> Tatarstan was only allowed to keep 5% or approx. $ 277.5 million.
> As to the inflow of industry, Tatarstan should be grateful not to Russia
> but to the Germans.The wise Stalin having decided to move most of the
> industry located in the west part of the USSR to the Urals to get them
> away from the invasion.
> Most of the industry moved to Tatarstan was of military nature and now
> under present conditions is either shut down, obsolete or being out for
> grabs- i. e. sold at bargain prices.
> The industry overall has not progressed with the technological advances.
> Kamaz factory in Challi ( ex Brejnev ) is a good example. After the
> declaration of sovereignity the Tatar government realized that they had
> to upgrade the truck ( the joke I heard in Kazakhstan was that each
> truck needed its own fuel tanker ) and reached an afreement with Cummins
> to uograge its polluting and gaz guzzling engine. Shortly after that
> decission the key unit i.e. the foundary burned down under very
> suspicious circumstances.
> The industrial move to Tatarstan created another problem.
>  In the 1930's Tatarstan was in the grips of a famine brought by
> collectivization and overall mismanagement. Hundreds of thousand Tatars
> left, some to Central Asia others to build the now antiquated and
> polluting open heart furnaces in Magnitagorsk. I heard a saying that
> Magnitka was built upon the bones of Tatar and other workers.The new
> industries being built brought in a new influx of Russian and other
> Slavic workers, further reducing the population ratio in favor of the
> Russians.
> A good indication of what Tatarstan could have been is when we compare
> her to Kuwait. Let us keep in mind that Kuwait till 1961 was a British
> protectorate and thus only received part of the Revenue, perhaps
> 40%-however it way above the pittance that Tatarstan received from
> Starshi Brat.
>
>                          Tatarstan          Kuwait
> Production               1943 Start         1946 begin export
> Population               3.76 million       1.8 million
> Area                     67836 sq. km       46102 sq. km
> Land                     Desert             Forests, pastures & grain
> Water                    Excess             75% potable water imported
> Education                Highly educated    Substantially illiterate
>                                             ( prior to oil revenue)
> Food                     Locally produced   Imported
> Oil production     370 million bbl(average) 765 million bbl(61-84 avg)
>                    712 million bbl at peak
>
> Having been in Kuwait several times ( the first time in late 1950's
> subsequent visit in the mid 80's ) I was overwhelmed to see the progress
> of that country.
> Knowing that oil has a finite life, Kuwait invested part of their
> profits offshore thus ensuring that as oil production drops they will
> still be able to produce income.They now have a sizeable refinery
> capability. Tatarstan only built one in the last several years. After
> all it was always Gossplan's policy not to erect processing facilities
> close to production wells. It was always adviseable to build them in
> mother Russia territory. In addition of being a truly modern and wealthy
> state, they have free education, free medical facilities and reirement
> benefits. Unemployment is only 1.8 %.
> Do these figures bring up  thoughts of who benefitted the most,
> Tatarstan or Russia
> Selamlar
> Ravil Selihmet
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>
> My posting of October 17, 1998 begged TMG participants to drop
> accusatory format and redirect our efforts to free Tatarstan from
> Russian domination. One of the first steps was to pressure Tatar
> deputies to address parliament in Tatar. For those who are interested in
> this campaign and have Real Radio capability, my understanding is  that
> this Sunday, Azatlik Radio will pause this question to some Tatar
> deputies. It will be interesting to hear the question and responses.
> This will be heard at 11 am and 3 pm EST at
> http://webdevel.rferl.org/bd/tb/index.html
> Good listening!
> Ravil Selihmet
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I am no longer working for EXAR.  I assume that the e-mail addresses
iskender@... & iskender.agi@... are no longer valid.

Please send me correspondence at my "permanent" e-mail address
<iskender@...>.

Best regards,
-Iskender Agi
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The lyrics of the Tatarstan National Anthem:

TUGAN YAGYM

Kaylarda bulmadym, dönya gizdem,
Nazly ciller yözem syypady.
Singa kaytkach kyna, tugan yagym,
Kükrägemä shatlyk syymady.

Tik ber genä könge ayyrylsam da,
Yätim kalgan kebek bulamyn.
Tik sin genä yäshäü maturlygy,
Güzällege yakty dönyanyng!

- Ramazan Baytimerov
======================================================
(translitteration assistance:
  ä as in äti, father
  ö as in kön, day
  ü as in küz, eye
  y as in 1) dönya, world, but also 2) as in kyz, girl
  c as in cil, wind
  ng as in tang, dawn
  ch as in chäy, tea
  sh as in shat, happy)

Selamlar
- Akif
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Isn't this what Tatarstan is supposed to be doing?

The following article by Paul Goble (research analyst at Radio Free Europe/
Radio Liberty) might be of interest to some of our readers.

Analysis from Washington - The Kalmyk Gambit

	 Washington, Nov.19 (NCA/Paul Goble) - A threat by the leader of the Kalmyk
Republic to secede from the Russian Federation unless Moscow provides more aid
to his region threatens to exacerbate an already unstable situation --
regardless of what either side now does.
     Twice so far this week, Kalmyk President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov has said that
Moscow's failure to provide assistance was forcing him to consider declaring
independence for his republic, a poor, land-locked region of 317,000 people in
the southern part of Russia.
 	 Unless more aid is forthcoming and soon, the Kalmyk leader warned on Russian
central television Tuesday night, "We shall urge Moscow to give us the status
of an (internally autonomous) member or simply secede from Russia."
	 The Russian media gave prominent play to the Kalmyk leader's remarks, but
most reports downplayed their importance, dismissing them as simply the latest
version of the complex negotiations that have been taking place between the
Russian capital and its regions.
	 And in a move that appears to give support to such a position, Ilyumzhinov
himself on Wednesday suggested that no one should see his statement as
anything but an attempt to call attention to the difficulties his region
currently faces.
	 Such conclusions may prove correct, but the reaction of President Boris
Yeltsin and his government suggest that at least some are taking Ilyumzhinov's
statements far more seriously, even if the Kalmyk leader appears to have
disowned them.
	 Not only has Yeltsin summoned a special session of his Security Council to
consider how to respond, but his press spokesman said on Wednesday that the
Kalmyk leader's statements "threaten to destabilize" Russia. Meanwhile, the
State Duma asked its speaker to refer the remarks to the prosecutor-general,
and Justice Minister Pavel Krasheninnikov  called them "anti-constitutional".
	 This perhaps unexpectedly dramatic conclusion reflects three fundamental
facts:
	 First, the Kalmyk threat to secede is the first by any regional leader since
Moscow's ill-fated war with Chechnya. Many in both Russia and the West have
assumed that no other region in the Russian Federation would risk a Chechen
outcome.
	 Until this week, none had. But by breaking the taboo on this subject,
Ilyumzhinov has made it easier for other regional leaders to take this step,
something at least a few may now consider doing.
	 Second, by threatening secession to gain aid, Ilyumzhinov deepens Moscow's
difficulties with the regions in two significant ways.
	 On the one hand, his demands seem certain to draw the attention of other
regional leaders to the central government's growing inability to deliver on
its promises.
	 And on the other, precisely because Ilyumzhinov threatens secession in order
to get assitance rather than to maximize a nationalist agenda, his words are
likely to resonate with some leaders of poor Russian regions as well.
	 At present, fewer than a dozen of the country's 89 regions send more taxes to
Moscow than they receive back. Consequently, some of these poorer regions are
likely to see Ilyumzhinov's threat as one they should make as well.
	 And third, Ilyumzhinov's gambit puts Moscow once again in an almost
impossible situation. If it provides more assistance to Kalmykia in the wake
of this threat, other regions and republics will almost certainly adopt the
same strategy.
	 But if Moscow seeks to use force against the Kalmyks, a position some Russian
nationalists might endorse, the central government seems likely to generate
another kind of backlash, one potentially just as serious as giving in.
	 Even though a military operation in Kalmykia would likely be less daunting
than the one in Chechnya, few Russian military leaders and even fewer ordinary
Russians are likely to view such a military operation as an attractive option.

	 And consequently, if Moscow decided to take a dramatic step against the
Kalmyks, it would likely face opposition both within the military and among
the poulation at large.
	 For all these reasons, Moscow seems likely to move with great caution, trying
to balance carrots and sticks to force Ilyumzhinov to back down. But it cannot
hardly avoid responding and thus showing its hand.
	 And as a result,  like the chess player he is famous for being, Kalmyk
President Ilyumzhinov has launched a gambit that may ultimately work against
him and his cause but that could in fact sweep the entire board.


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In a message dated 98-11-18 01:58:45 EST, Antero wrote:

<< Christmas is approaching, and children love it. Not least
  because of anticipating presents, but also because of all that goes
  along it: opening calendars, looking at decorations, Christmas trees,
  watching for Santa Claus, etc. Some Tatars (like my wife) feel uneasy
  about this, because it reminds them of what they did not have and could
  not do in their youth. But why not? What would be wrong wrong for a
  Tatar in celebrating winter equinox >>

Actually, Tatars living in Tatarstan do have a celebration around the time of
winter equinox.  It is called Nardugan.  In the past, it used to be ignored or
celebrated on a much smaller scale than now.  But during the last few years
this festival has become more popular.  The reason for that has a lot to do
with Christmas.  Tatar children who grow up in religious families often feel
left out during Christmas, when Russian girls and boys receive presents, have
fun and take part in festivities.  Seeing the danger of religious
assimilation, some Tatars started paying more attention to this long neglected
and by now almost forgotten festival.  Celebrating it at around the same time
as Christmas gives Tatar children a chance to reassert their ethnic and
religious identity at a time when they are most vulnarable to what amount ot
an indirect proselytizing.  Now Tatar children even have their own equivalent
of Santa Claus (Ded Moroz in Russia), called Nardugan babai.

Introducing Nardugan to our religious calendar and making it a holiday was a
very smart decision.  Whether this festival has Muslim roots or not, its
positive effect on preserving our religious identity is indisputable.

Here is the US something similar happened to Chanukkah.  In the past, this
Jewish holiday was not considered to be very important.  But because the time
ot its observance roughly coincides with Christmas, its importance have grown
considerably and now it is celebrated almost on the same scale as Christmas.

Sabirzyan Badretdin

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TATAR NEWS,
1998-11-12

*1.Tatarstan's President Elected An Honorary Professor Of Moscow
Institute Of International Affairs.
On November 11 in Moscow president of Tatarstan Republic Shaimiev
received a diploma as an honorary professor in the Moscow State Institute of
International Affairs. Rector of the Institute Anatoly Torkunov said
words of appreciation during the ceremony emphasizing the results of
Tatarstan's president in reforming and developing federal relations in
Russia.

*2.Turkish Consul Says Cooperation Between Tatarstan And Turkey Will
Develop.
On November 11 prime minister Rustam Minnikhanov met with Turkish
Consul in Tatarstan Ahmet Reza Demirer. The two sides have discussed
cooperation projects for Turkey and Tatarstan. During the meeting
Ahmet Reza Demirer assured Minnikhanov that problems in relations
between Russian and Turkey would affect Turkish cooperation with
Tatarstan. He referred to that the leader of the Working Party of
Kurdistan wanted by the Turkish government being given political asylum by the
Russian government.
Demirer said he planned to prepare for a visit by a Tatarstan
governmental delegation to the Turkish Republic.

*3.Republican Budget For 1999 Discussed By Tatarstan's Government.
Prime minister Rustam Minnikhanov held a meeting of Tatarstan's
government devoted to the future adoption of the republican budget for
1999.  In his report minister of economics Robert Musin said that 60%
of the necessary budget funds have been raised in 1998 while 70% of this
year's budget are already spent.

i.nurmi


______________________________
Tatar-Bashkir Service, Radio Liberty

news items are provided in English by the Tatar-Bashkir Service of Radio
Liberty
and are redistributed by permission of the editor and publisher
news items may be lightly edited for English by Uli Schamiloglu at the
request of the editor


Uli Schamiloglu
Associate Professor of Central Asian Studies
1452 Van Hise Hall -- University of Wisconsin
1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI  53706  USA
tel. 1-608-262-7141 off.; 1-608-262-3498 dept.; 1-608-265-2814 fax
E-mail: uschamil@...

Antero wrote:

>
> Now, I hope, these comments too might be of some help for Tatars who are
> worried about how to raise their children in mixed marriages. Just one
> more example. Christmas is approaching, and children love it. Not least
> because of anticipating presents, but also because of all that goes
> along it: opening calendars, looking at decorations, Christmas trees,
> watching for Santa Claus, etc. Some Tatars (like my wife) feel uneasy
> about this, because it reminds them of what they did not have and could
> not do in their youth. But why not? What would be wrong wrong for a
> Tatar in celebrating winter equinox (a couple of days late), New Year (a
> week in advance), Santa Claus Day, or the supposed birthday of a prophet
> - and in everything that goes along with it? Every Finnish child (even
> Tatars) know, that Santa Claus comes from Lapland, speaks all languages
> and gives presents to all good kids. What would be so un-Tatar about it?
> Is it not better to have double numbers of feasts - Christmas, Ramazan
> Beyrem, Easter, Korban Beyrem...?

And what´s more: many or even most typical Christmas traditions are based on
either
the Roman Solar Festival or the Viking "Mid-Winter Sacrifice". In the Catholic
world the
birth of Jesus was changed from early January to Dec 25th to adjust the
Christian
tradition to the Roman Solar Festival to attract disciples. A similar adoption
of earlier
Viking traditions occured when Christianity was accepted as the majority
religion in
Scandinavia. The Christmas tree (which came back to us from Germany in the 19th
century) and the red glass bulbs that always come with it is a remenisence of
the
pieces of meat (or even the whole animal) that the Vikings hung up in trees
during their
Mid-Winter Blood-Sacrifice. The typical red and green colours of Christmas
probably
are related to that too. Santa Claus of course existed. But now in the present
day
typical Christmas festival old Nordic and Catholic traditions mingle. Saint
Nicolaus did
not actually live in Lapland. That idea probably comes from the ancient Nordic
tradition
of giving present to the "little people" (the "tomte"-people - the invisible
mini-midgets of
every farm that helped guarding it - during Christmas.The chief "tomte" would
then give
something in return to the farm-family. There were not one single "tomte" living
in
Lapland. There were a tomte family on every farm. The Santa Claus of today is
always
dressed in red. That was not the case before 1930! It was that exact year that
Coca-
Cola asked the Swedish-American artist Haddon Sundblom to design the Coca-Cola
December ads campaign. He invented the red dress and kept the big white beard.
It is
an eye-catching combination that just happened (or what?) be identical with the
colours in the Coca-Cola logo.

So I agree with Antero: please feel free to participate in the Yule-tide
Festival. Use the
word Yule instead of Christmas if you want to lessen the religious connotations.
It is
only in churches that you hear and see something that has to do with Jesus
Christ
rather than the natural turn of seasons - the victory of light over darkness.
That actual
fact is something that every person living in the northern hemisphere is part of
and
affected by. Regardless of religion.


Happy holidays - whatever your religion!

Staffan Albinsson


P.S. My first name Staffan is of course not Swedish but Greek - Stefan - which
goes
to proove Antero´s discussion on "what is a typical Tatar, Russian ..... name".







------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0--

Please use tatar-l to post message to the group.
Don't send them to me anymore.  Thanks.

-Iskender


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------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0--

TMG-nyng janga "jorty" kotly bulsyn!

Rexmet Iskender!

****************

Now, back to the Alisa:

SabirzyanB@... on Wed, Nov 18, 1998 01:35 wrote:

>The following editorial comment was written by Yasser Seirawan, the publisher
>of Inside Chess Magazine (November 1998 issue).
>
>GALLIAMOVA'S  MISFORTUNE ...
>
>PS from Sabirzyan Badretdin:
>Please notice the following sentence in Seirawan's comment:  "...should Zsazsa
>decline to play, Alisa Galliamova and Xie Jun would play for the World
>Championship."  Perhaps it makes sense for us to find out Zsuzsa Polgar's e-
>mail address and send her messages urging her to give Alisa Galliamova the
>chance to have a match with Xie Jun?  This way Alisa would have a shot at
>challenging Zsuzsa Polgar for the title of World Champion among women.
>Wouldn't it be great to have a Tatar World Champion?


I'm not sure if Zsuzsa would decline, she is already seeking a sponsor for the
world championship match which assumed would take place around September, 1999.

But, "Jatyp kalganchy - atyp kal!" --

There is Zsuzsa Polgar's site on the web <www.polgarchess.com>. No personal
e-mail address is available, but there is Guest Book there. May be it would be
even better to write there (it's open for everybody)?..

Selemner,
Ali Gilmi
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